RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

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Shadowy Reality
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 pm

It makes sense to be immune to sneak but not criticals.
It does not make sense to be immune to criticals but not sneak attacks.

Immunity to sneak attacks is not a thing in dungeons and dragons. There are, however, things that effectively make you immune to sneak attacks (albeit with some conditions).
Improved Uncanny Dodge for example, makes one immune to flanking (and thus Sneak Attacks triggered by flanking), but Sneak Attacks which are triggered from invisibility or flat-footed, are not denied, such as if the Rogue is invisible or the target restrained.
Dragons do not have immunity to Sneak Attack in d&d, however they have extremely acute senses, which usually translates to them not being able to be sneaked upon, but they can very much still be flanked.

You can think of critical hits and sneak attacks as the same, they both target vital spots. Hence if one has no vital spots (see undead, plants, constructs), you can neither be critically hit or sneak attacked. You may be effectively immune to sneak attack because you can both detect hidden foes, cannot be flanked and cannot be flat-footed, but if a creature hits your AC within threat range, you still have vital spots, so you can be critically hit.

Nevrus
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Nevrus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:39 pm

This change is now reverted so... Congrats PMs?
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by BHR55 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:14 pm

Given it was done because it broke for the intended group it was meant to benefit, and CL is still a dud not sure congratulations are in order for PMs.

I imagine we will see what happens when it is fixed for flanking.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:27 pm

While I appreciate the work that went into this change and the idea behind shifting balance around a little bit and attempting to make the world a little more rogue-friendly, I'm happy it was reverted. I have more than one reason I'm happy it was reverted (no, I don't play a palemaster :P ) but a few of the ones that are dominant for me...

1: Undead are immune to sneak attacks for the same reason they're immune to criticals. This isn't the Walking Dead. The undead in FR are magically animated conduits of negative energy taking hold over a lifeless sack of flesh (or generating some sort of in/corporeal body from nothing with said magic and negative energy). If you punch out a zombie's heart, it keeps coming. If you cut a zombie's hamstring, it doesn't fall down- it keeps walking. If you actually remove the whole leg, it will very likely continue to hop at you, ten feet per round, because they're magic, but they're slow. If you take both of its legs, congratulations- it crawls 5 feet per round and it's still trying to eat you (from a prone position :lol: ).

Sneak attacks don't work on undead because it doesn't matter which squishy bits you poke and cut, magic, not physics and biology. Technically, a zombie doesn't need its head to rip you apart, although it would lose its bite attack at that point.

2: I selfishly have other things I'd hope the devs would have time to work on rather than onerously examining the impact on sneak attack across all dungeons with crit-immune monsters and all rogue-based PvP encounters. The impact of allowing certain unsneakable things to be sneak attacked is absolutely huge and I actually died a little inside for them when they said they'd be monitoring the change closely.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:19 pm
What kind of creature is immune to crit but vulnerable to sneak?

I really don't have a strong sense of how this will affect the PvE game because I don't know what beings are suddenly vulnerable to being jumped.

I know creatures that are perceptive and reactive like dragons are immune to sneak but not crit, but I don't know how to imagine the other way around. Oozes, undead, constructs, elementals, plants - Are there any of these that can now be sneak attacked? Can I stab a genie in the back because it has a back?
Many examples come from Pathfinder, which is the system that originally did this separation, so I'll go and quote their line of logic, because I think it's pretty reasonable.
Precision Damage & Critical Hits

Precision damage (such as that dealt by a rogue’s sneak attack ability) applies to more creatures than it did in previous editions of the game.

Some may balk at this but it can easily be imagined or explained as the rogue having found a weak point in the undead’s “body” (such as a zombie’s head) or even finding a crack or flaw in a construct’s “body.”

There is some degree of confusion as to what should separate a “critical hit” from a “precision-based attack” but in any event, in some cases they are treated differently.

Critical Hits

The following creature types (or subtypes) have immunity to critical hits (that is, they do not take any additional damage from critical hits):

Aeon (subtype): “Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.“
Elemental (subtype): Elementals are “not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.“
Incorporeal (subtype): “An incorporeal creature is immune to critical hits (unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality.)“
Ooze (Type): <Oozes are…> “not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Protean (subtype): (50% chance to ignore, see below*)
Swarm (Type): “A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits.“

Precision-Based Damage (like Sneak Attack)

The following creature types (or subtypes) do not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack):

Elemental (subtype): “<An elemental…> does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Incorporeal (subtype): “An incorporeal creature is immune to precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) unless the attacks are made using a weapon with the ghost touch special weapon quality.“
Ooze (Type): “<An ooze is…> does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks (such as sneak attack.)“
Protean (subtype): (50% chance to ignore, see below*)

Creatures Immune to Flanking

Opponents do not gain any special flanking bonuses against the following creature types (or subtypes):

Ooze (Type): “<An ooze is…> not subject to … flanking.“
Swarm (Type): “A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernible anatomy, so it is not subject to flanking.“
Elemental (subtype): “<Elementals are…> not subject to flanking.“

*Special: Proteans have a special ability called “Amorphous Anatomy” which might protect them: “<Amorphous Anatomy> grants <a protean> a 50% chance to ignore additional damage caused by critical hits and sneak attacks,”
In short, Pathfinder separates the idea of "precision" or "ambush" damage, from the idea of "critical damage", which is a blow of overwhelmingly powerful force. Both often refer to the idea of exploiting weaknesses or vulnerabilities, but don't always refer to the same specific situation.

Consructs, fleshy-non zombie undead, some previously crit immune elementals/outsiders (by Arelith's use, not necessarily PF's use), I could see them being vulnerable to precision based or ambush based damage due to flanking, but not due to simply hitting them hard, or "getting lucky", which is really what a crit is, vs. the direct application of specific skill and situation of precision/ambush damage.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Loved the idea of the Crit/Sneak Separation. It's a good Pathfinder mechanic. Would've loved to have it stick around here.

(more Pathfinder the better, imho)
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:36 pm

give me sorceror bloodlines or give me death

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Astral » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:26 am

Sockss wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:41 pm
This is really neat for PvE.

However with PvP in mind there's a particular class that really should get looked at, Pale Masters.

They should either be sneakable, but NOT rogue-holy grenadable (This makes most sense from a lore perspective and is better balance-wise)

Or sneak immune and rogue grenadable.
I think PMs were really broken before the nerf to their ac. I think they are still slightly overpowered and I'm glad you can only take the first PM lvl if evil alignment. I think more RP based restrictions to PMs should take place because this class is ~still~ S tier and has far less counters than any other class. I agree with some others who said holy grenades should have never affected PMs because they are not fully undead but by no means I think they need buffs now because they are no longer sneak immune. Hell no.
DM GrumpyCat wrote: Don't blame characters for things they have no controle over. (e.g. - Why havn't you fixed Benwick yet Mr Paladin?') That just frustrates people as there's no real answer they can give.

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