RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

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RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Sockss » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:41 pm

This is really neat for PvE.

However with PvP in mind there's a particular class that really should get looked at, Pale Masters.

They should either be sneakable, but NOT rogue-holy grenadable (This makes most sense from a lore perspective and is better balance-wise)

Or sneak immune and rogue grenadable.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Durvayas » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:46 pm

Yea... so...
...given PMs still have their CL absolutely screwed(and thats a more than 6 month old issue), and lost all that AC a little while back because they had crit and sneak immunity, they kind of fight like a wet blanket now, and should probably be looked at to get a fix(for their spells) or a minor buff because this update is kind of a big deal for them, and a final nail in the coffin of the melee PM archetype.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by The Greater Good » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:03 pm

Agreed with the OP, and this should definitely at the very least have come with their CL not being completely fricked. (huh, the forum doesn't censor the big f anymore ? Wow)
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:05 pm

Agreed on the CL fix. I'm absolutely thrilled that Crit & Sneak Immunity have been decoupled, but as a friend of many bone boys, I can't help but cringe on their behalf. It's been a while since the CL issue was brought up as a bugged feature, and while I get that the devs are a volunteer workforce, it does seem a little... I dunno, "odd," for lack of a better term - to leave such an impactful feature of the class broken, and continue pushing nerfs despite that.

Think of all the Andunorian Palemasters whose spells just ding off the ebony skin of their drowish overladies. Weep for their pain.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Durvayas » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:46 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:05 pm
Agreed on the CL fix. I'm absolutely thrilled that Crit & Sneak Immunity have been decoupled, but as a friend of many bone boys, I can't help but cringe on their behalf. It's been a while since the CL issue was brought up as a bugged feature, and while I get that the devs are a volunteer workforce, it does seem a little... I dunno, "odd," for lack of a better term - to leave such an impactful feature of the class broken, and continue pushing nerfs despite that.

Think of all the Andunorian Palemasters whose spells just ding off the ebony skin of their drowish overladies. Weep for their pain.
I play one of those drowish overladies, and I agree. ;)
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Irongron » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:10 pm

We'll look at Palemasters in due course. The motivation for this update was not to nerf them, but it was a side effect that I wanted players to be aware of.

This is also a change where REAL feedback (based upon actual in-game experience of the change rather than speculation) would be a great help. There are a lot of creatures to consider, and right now, without going through hundreds of them I can't say which are currently immune to one or the other (sneak attacks/criticals), so if you find one that is immune to sneaks, that you think shouldn't be, or something where you feel the addition of sneak damage makes it too easy a target, please do let me know.

If we can adjust enough creatures appropriately, this update promises to be a big deal for both assassin and rogues, both of which could do with a boost in PvE.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Cortex » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Rogue PvE has been good for a while, using holy grenades were (and likely still are) more effective than combat. Their damage vs non sneak immune targets are superior to a WM's, now a rogue is likely better than a WM in most cases as far as PvE is concerned, with higher damage output and being able to sneak attack targets the WM cannot critical hit.

A QoL buff? Sure, but it was largely unneeded.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Durvayas » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:50 pm

Cortex wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:17 pm
Rogue PvE has been good for a while, using holy grenades were (and likely still are) more effective than combat. Their damage vs non sneak immune targets are superior to a WM's, now a rogue is likely better than a WM in most cases as far as PvE is concerned, with higher damage output and being able to sneak attack targets the WM cannot critical hit.

A QoL buff? Sure, but it was largely unneeded.
Assassins badly needed this for PvE. They don't use grenades.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Cortex » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:58 pm

They would be less effective than a rogue or WM, but were still quite functional. I played an assassin before they got their latest buffs and I never felt at disadvantage, due to still being very effective in other dungeons. They only ever fell short against dragons and some UD mobs... which are still sneak immune to rogues regardless.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:30 pm

I think this is a nice change for PvE.
But having played a Caster PM for some time, I have no idea why this was so quickly implemented for PM. Their AC was already nerfed and much of it converted to Dodge. Their CL is completely broken for ages. And now Rogues have not one, but two weapons against them.

I would ask the Dev team what they expect the Palemaster is supposed to excel at, because it is quickly becoming very lackluster. Palemaster was always a defensive class. Melee PMs have laughable AB, Caster PMs were never that terrifying, their summons could easily be countered due to the lack of Spell Resistance (unlike clerics), and they do not have that many spells to fight with. Necromancy is particularly bad for PvP.

5 AC and Crit Immunity for a 16 level investment is where we are standing at now.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:41 pm

Big buffs for rogue fighter varient.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by RedGiant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:21 am

I'm with Shadow Reality on this one. I think the PvP game here is paramount and despite this sounding like giving more tools in the Developer tool box, you could always give creatures either sneak immune or crit immune, with the difference being crit immune was inclusive of the former in a stepped approach. PMs are inordinately affected by their AC being converted to dodge and now sneak immunity being decoupled from crit immunity.

I know Iron has asked for actual feedback, which I suppose means numbers and instances, but I question what sneak immune and critical immunity even mean in the new economy? It would seem there should be some standardized definition and case logic applied.

I do worry that the rock-paper-scissors of NWN Vanilla and even old Arelith is getting lost in recent years. It seems slowly to be replaced by an increasing AB vs. AC, melee-centric simplification. There just seems to be less counter play available to PCs with the introduction of some of these changes.

Some examples of what I am talking about include:
Qualified Damage Reduction has suffered greatly with the introduction of high ab weapons.
Non-skill related detection counter play is greaaatly reduced (most will cheer this, but it is still a fact).
Now sneak-attack counterplay of the quasi-undead PCs has been effectively removed.
Combat-useful shape-changing options have been stripped of all of the above in some cases.
Ability stack saves on gear has rendered most vanilla DC spells/abilities useless by end game.

There is a small vocal crowd which cheers all of this, but this seems to simply directly encourage the afore-mentioned melee-meta.

I'm off, I guess, to go get guhd AC.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by PeterRasta » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:33 am

Melee PMs have laughable AB,
5 AC and Crit Immunity for a 16 level investment is where we are standing at now.
a final nail in the coffin of the melee PM archetype.
CL-fix (maybe, possibly in the pipeline?) or not, I'd have to say this is an archetype that doesn't seem to have been taken into consideration at all lately, and have now been nerfed from average to woefully sub-optimal.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Nobs » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:16 am

The only thing rogues realy need to be able to SA are elementals cous they have no nades for them.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Seekeepeek » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:42 am

I don't really see why Pale master should loss the sneak immunity. but separating them in PvE is good.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by RedGiant » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm

PeterRasta wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:33 am
Melee PMs have laughable AB,
5 AC and Crit Immunity for a 16 level investment is where we are standing at now.
a final nail in the coffin of the melee PM archetype.
CL-fix (maybe, possibly in the pipeline?) or not, I'd have to say this is an archetype that doesn't seem to have been taken into consideration at all lately, and have now been nerfed from average to woefully sub-optimal.
I'm not actually worried about melee PMs as much, since they can generally fit the melee-meta of stratospheric AC, which they do trade off for mediocre AB. Full Caster PMs here are in the lurch.

Upon meditating upon my earlier reaction, it will be interesting to see how the PvE landscape changes. I really didn't think this was as much an issue, since the rogue I run is parry heavy, which despite what ppl say, I'm finding highly useful even in late game. I still think we as a server should define the case logic of what sneak immune and crit immune actually means, because these are substantial parts of the game.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by CosmicOrderV » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:13 pm

Coherency. Consistency. Immersion. Logic.

The sort of thing I think Red Giant mentions, by saying we ought to examine what being Sneak Immune and Crit Immune, "actually mean."

When Palemasters first had their AC changed to Dodge, it lacked consistency. This was actually recognized by Irongron, and he said that future changes ought to respect the integrity of the setting (despite the fact that this change was left as is). If Arelith is going to be an immersive world, as much as things can, they ought to make sense. The mechanics ought to be consistent.

This being said, and generally speaking, I feel like separating Sneak Immunity from Crit immunity, can make sense.

I imagine the logic as follows:
Some sort of protection, or shield. A sneak attack goes around the protection. A critical hit goes through it.

Back to Palemasters.
They used to have immunity to a large range of things, and really high AC. Now they have AC in-line with standardized numbers, and lost one of their key immunities. They do get a few cookies extra that Arelith has added, but they're main appeal has been sacked pretty hard. Fixing their caster level is apparently in the works, but (at the risk of derailment) I think a quicker band-aid might be in order.

Keep things thematic. Make the AC Natural Armor, have it scale normally, and add some nice DR at periodic intervals. Why Holy Flasks were ever allowed to damage them, is honestly, beyond me. They're not undead, and this shouldn't be a thing anymore. This would all make PM's passable in the mean time. Then once they get their CL fixed, they'll finally be a valid class.
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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Hazard » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 pm

"Deathless Mastery (Ex): On reaching 10th level, a pale master gains the virtues of his deathless arts. His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con). He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally."
(Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead variant, p. 47)

I am guessing this is why Palemasters lost sneak immunity. Because it's not something they're supposed to get. I don't know, just throwing it in to help make sense of the changes.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:13 pm

Hazard wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 pm
"Deathless Mastery (Ex): On reaching 10th level, a pale master gains the virtues of his deathless arts. His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con). He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally."
(Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead variant, p. 47)

I am guessing this is why Palemasters lost sneak immunity. Because it's not something they're supposed to get. I don't know, just throwing it in to help make sense of the changes.
They are, in RAW anything immune to critical hits is immune to sneak attacks by design. Losing immunity to sneak attacks is a step away from the lore.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Hazard » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:28 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:13 pm
Hazard wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:04 pm
"Deathless Mastery (Ex): On reaching 10th level, a pale master gains the virtues of his deathless arts. His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con). He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally."
(Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead variant, p. 47)

I am guessing this is why Palemasters lost sneak immunity. Because it's not something they're supposed to get. I don't know, just throwing it in to help make sense of the changes.
They are, in RAW anything immune to critical hits is immune to sneak attacks by design. Losing immunity to sneak attacks is a step away from the lore.
Fair enough!

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by a1b2 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:49 am

That and melee pm's already lost the AC, there is even less reason to attempt a melee pm when everything that makes them unique in both lore and rp avoiding casting ends up being taken away.

If the issue is with PM casters, than make it if someone has a higher str/dex than int/cha then they get the full class ac bonus and crit sneak/immunity.

if they go caster pm, do the half AC as they have spells that can make up for that anyway. (though honestly I didn't see any balancing issue with them before. they had less spells than full casters and the summons they can get are easily matched by necro wizards anyhow. The only truly unique thing PM's had spell wise is an apparently buffed epic dragon knight (dracolich) spell. (I say apparently only because I've never seen it in action and assume its on par with any other epic dragon knight summon, but may be wrong on that)

Also, looking at the server population numbers, there isn't a big issue with PM's flooding the world. There was an increase a little, but any time something gets "free" buffs due to class changes that happens. Honestly just take those "free" feats away and people would probably still be happy. (I personally know 2 melee PM's that have chosen to roll their pm's due to their characters being nerfed into the ground because apparently the caster pm was too strong)

My last point is: for the LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD(or evil ;) in this case), PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE..... put the pale master ac bonus back to what it was before! SOOO many things cause people to lose their dodge bonus when you don't have uncanny dodge or defensive awareness let alone the space to add three levels of a class that does.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by a1b2 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:12 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:13 pm
Coherency. Consistency. Immersion. Logic.

Back to Palemasters.
They used to have immunity to a large range of things, and really high AC. Now they have AC in-line with standardized numbers, and lost one of their key immunities. They do get a few cookies extra that Arelith has added, but they're main appeal has been sacked pretty hard. Fixing their caster level is apparently in the works, but (at the risk of derailment) I think a quicker band-aid might be in order.

Keep things thematic. Make the AC Natural Armor, have it scale normally, and add some nice DR at periodic intervals. Why Holy Flasks were ever allowed to damage them, is honestly, beyond me. They're not undead, and this shouldn't be a thing anymore. This would all make PM's passable in the mean time. Then once they get their CL fixed, they'll finally be a valid class.

Their AC wasn't super high unless you tossed in a CHA based blackguard powers into the mix. (which, lets be honest, happens to EVERYONE that tosses blackguard or paladin into their build) The ONLY cookies arelith added were to caster PM's as every single one requires higher cha/int to be accessable. The melee non-blackguard PM was Boned. (heh puns make me smile)

Making the bonus ac anything already in just means it's usefulness is cut in half despite pm's having to put a LOT of levels in to get a decent bonus and on top of that it is redundant if its converted to any dodge, natural, or other previous existing ac bonus. The uniqueness was in the fact it was never ANY of those and stacked with all of them. PM's had lots of AC but limited AB and the lore fit that. The changes feel like they are moving farther away rather than closer. perhaps the nerf hammer should aim at blackguard/paladin dips rather than the solid PM class that you knew what you were in for, a trade of casting power to be nicely buffed defensively.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:30 pm

The ONLY cookies arelith added were to caster PM's as every single one requires higher cha/int to be accessable. The melee non-blackguard PM was Boned. (heh puns make me smile)
this was almost assuredly intentional

Separating sneak attack immunity from crit immunity makes a lot of sense from a development standpoint. Pathfinder made the same change for their system, and it's a net boost in coherence and systems viability, as well as opening up design space for making monsters. It just needs to be applied cohesively and correctly to monsters and such.

RIP the palemaster though, especially with that CL bug still rolling around. 24/6 is king.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:29 pm

I've only breezed over most replies, so i'm really only responding to the OP here.

But i'm in total agreement. I'm fine with PM losing sneak immunity but I totally agree that they shouldn't be affected by the holy grenades now. In fact I didn't know they could be and think they never should have been affected by them anyway. They're not full undead, they don't take damage from healing spells and heal from negative spells, the grenades harming them makes no sense.

All that considered along with their new sneak vulnerability I think it's definitely important that it's addressed asap.

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Re: RE: Crit / Sneak Seperation

Post by Nevrus » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:19 pm

What kind of creature is immune to crit but vulnerable to sneak?

I really don't have a strong sense of how this will affect the PvE game because I don't know what beings are suddenly vulnerable to being jumped.

I know creatures that are perceptive and reactive like dragons are immune to sneak but not crit, but I don't know how to imagine the other way around. Oozes, undead, constructs, elementals, plants - Are there any of these that can now be sneak attacked? Can I stab a genie in the back because it has a back?
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