Monk items

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Sockss
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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:19 pm

That's a fair comment, but you can counter time stop easily enough!
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Re: Monk items

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:20 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:11 pm
damage of a two hander is 1-10 with katana fists are 1-20 blinding speed doesnt give any speed bonus and ac doesnt grow from nothing because you use two hands

oh I admit i dont pull everything onto a spreadsheet and put it through whatever it is you guys do
What? Why would blinding speed give any more speed when you're already at permanent 150% speed? What it gives you is 4 dodge AC and +1APR with an instant action (no windup like a haste wand has)

And as for the katana 1-20 with 20/x2 is garbage compared to 1-10 19-20/x2, 1-20 just means you're doing an average of 10 damage on hit (16 with mdamask knuckles), no essences, no keen, garbage crit range. While the Katana, is sitting on a comfortable average of 5 damage (15 with Mdamask and essence) with 1.5X damage from STR from twohanding and 16-20 crit range. Meaning more overall reliable damage and higher bursts from criticals. Not to mention the extra gear slot you get from your weapon freeing up your bracers.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:26 pm

What monks really need, is the option to take WM levels with unarmed. They lose some of their strongest monk levels in return for the ability to break casters concentration checks on crits.

I theorized a /drunken master/ type monk subclass that would gain the WM feats while drunk but lose a bunch of monk properties including lawful alignment allowing you to make the drunken monk barbarian of legends. Perhaps give them weapon specialization beer bottle or chair leg or a headbutt ability.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Hexgoblin » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:40 pm

Even if you could get WM feats to respect unarmed focuses, you'd still be numerically better off running katanas.

What you're proposing is already there, but better.

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Re: Monk items

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:49 pm

I think if someone provides examples of, say, overpowered items, the least you can do when either insisting otherwise or claiming everyone has it is give examples. Saying ding ding you are wrong without backing it up looks like trolling.

It's also very possible to run a katana monk that does triple digits crits. Either with or without WM. You can make one in the pgcc easily to test the theory. Overwhelming critical helps, or if you're feeling nasty a horc dual wielder might be a fun ginzu test.


I know you have a vested interest in your character. Everyone has biases amd that fact can't be avoided: however, as someone who would like to play a monk that is not panic nerfed into Oblivion in two months when the Monastery of the griefing fist decides to solo Bendir, you should take a minute to familiarize yourself with the mechanics of d20 systems, nwn in particular, and popular builds compared to monks specifically, and approach the discussion with evidence, numbers, and so forth.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:43 pm

The Greater Good wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:49 pm
someone who would like to play a monk that is not panic nerfed into Oblivion in two months when the Monastery of the griefing fist decides to solo Bendir.
We've got a winner for the next Arelith monastic organization name.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:22 pm

Heh. WM nerfs...


62 AC ( in improved expertise) 48 ab, big damage against not-high-ac targets.

Compared to...

63 ac ( and honestly you can get it more than that. this is without improved expertise) 47 ab (more APR too, because monk), 48 SR, epic dodge, blinding speed, mind immunity. They can now also dual wield katanas for some reason so, why not, even more damage on top. Not that it matters that much, actually, I'd still stick with quarterstaff. More AB is better.

The only thing weaponmasters have going for them is ki critical and increased multiplier. Dealing damage is the entire shtick of the build.

In other words, if a monk decides to fight a wm -- all he has to do is toggle the expertise button and it's a free win. If he wants to be safe about it, I mean. 48 AB/52 AC vs 47 AB/63 AC + Epic dodge, guess who wins. Before, a monk would have to utilize their stealth/movement speed/stunning fist when fighting WMs.

However, three things:

1. I don't care about monks that much. Pretty sure there are 2 to 3 people in total who can play them proper, and it's Arelith, so -- The free discipline on torso is so petty in comparison to everything else they get nowadays. They aren't a >click to win< class like Wild Mages. I'd rather complain about those.

2. WMs are actually pretty hated in general, both by the community and especially by the staff. They fall into the >click to win< category because your average Arelith player is going to stand still when a weaponmaster who's just chugged down a True Strike potion comes charging at them.

3. Don't give monks the 2018 warlock/spellsword nerf treatment. I like the new changes, but they seem a little bit overtuned

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Re: Monk items

Post by Nevrus » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:54 pm

This thread has made me want to do a relative math comparison to see if there is a viable counter.

So, a level 30 monk with toughness, IE, +12 con, and starting with 14 con, is going to have about 70 AC and 510 HP. Pretty beefy if they can swing it. Spells are pretty much a non-viable option, unless you have two people blowing greater ruin and hellball, which would immediately kill them with 600+ damage.

Since every class is going to be fishing for 20's against this madness, we're going to ignore buffing AB and just go for as much damage and as many rolls as possible, so a hasted dual wielding barb/WM. We'll say they're using battle axes because crit range doesn't matter.

In order to get a hit, they need to hit two 20's in a round with their seven attacks. The first is eaten by Epic Dodge. The chances of rolling rolling one 20 with 7 attacks is 35%, but we need to get two 20's, so that's a 12.25% chance of getting one hit off in a round. Once every eight rounds they'll manage to land at least one blow.

How hard will that blow hit?
We're going to say we have 19 Barb levels, 4 fighter levels, and 7 WM levels. +6 from specialization, 6 from Rage, 2 from Con, 6 from weapon, 4 from essence, 14 from Str. We're rolling 38 plus 1d8 plus 1d6, so an average of 46 damage on this successful hit, 56 with our Improved Power Attack. With +3d6 crit damage from the crit feat, we're critting for 234, less than half of the monk's health.

So, assuming you queued all 7 ki strikes to trigger in the first round, you have a 12.25% chance of putting the monk near death. If you were just wailing on them, it would take an average of 27 hasted rounds to kill them if they didn't use their heal.

And all of this is before factoring in the 75% miss chance from empty body.

Monk defenses are cray cray, yo.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Zahlfire » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:38 pm

Nevrus wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:54 pm
This thread has made me want to do a relative math comparison to see if there is a viable counter.

So, a level 30 monk with toughness, IE, +12 con, and starting with 14 con, is going to have about 70 AC and 510 HP. Pretty beefy if they can swing it. Spells are pretty much a non-viable option, unless you have two people blowing greater ruin and hellball, which would immediately kill them with 600+ damage.

Since every class is going to be fishing for 20's against this madness, we're going to ignore buffing AB and just go for as much damage and as many rolls as possible, so a hasted dual wielding barb/WM. We'll say they're using battle axes because crit range doesn't matter.

In order to get a hit, they need to hit two 20's in a round with their seven attacks. The first is eaten by Epic Dodge. The chances of rolling rolling one 20 with 7 attacks is 35%, but we need to get two 20's, so that's a 12.25% chance of getting one hit off in a round. Once every eight rounds they'll manage to land at least one blow.

How hard will that blow hit?
We're going to say we have 19 Barb levels, 4 fighter levels, and 7 WM levels. +6 from specialization, 6 from Rage, 2 from Con, 6 from weapon, 4 from essence, 14 from Str. We're rolling 38 plus 1d8 plus 1d6, so an average of 46 damage on this successful hit, 56 with our Improved Power Attack. With +3d6 crit damage from the crit feat, we're critting for 234, less than half of the monk's health.

So, assuming you queued all 7 ki strikes to trigger in the first round, you have a 12.25% chance of putting the monk near death. If you were just wailing on them, it would take an average of 27 hasted rounds to kill them if they didn't use their heal.

And all of this is before factoring in the 75% miss chance from empty body.

Monk defenses are cray cray, yo.
If you're fishing for 20's, you will never confirm a crit.
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The Greater Good
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Re: Monk items

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:03 pm

Yeah, that. Also, I just noticed that the free, always-on monk damage is what a high level barb gets while raging.
3. Don't give monks the 2018 warlock/spellsword nerf treatment.
Yeah, I cannot stress enough that a soft middle ground is better than getting smacked with the feylock stick.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:07 am

Damn that didn't take long. Just out of curiosity, is this all just theory talk, or have monks started wrecking in game pvp? I just ask because both of the builds are obviously powerful (I'm in the 30 camp but there is definitely some points for the 20/7/3) but I haven't spent any time thinking about their weaknesses yet. Also, I don't see any comments on tweaks. Good feedback tends to come with an issue and a idea on how to fix it, because even if your idea sucks it might start the path to one that works.

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Re: Monk items

Post by The Greater Good » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:18 am

My main tweak concern is getting katanas away from them. itemwise anyway. Bringing other classes up to par might be.. okay? For items, but still iffy.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Subutai » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:16 am

The Greater Good wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:18 am
My main tweak concern is getting katanas away from them. itemwise anyway. Bringing other classes up to par might be.. okay? For items, but still iffy.
This seems like Arelith's standard, and I think it's really dangerous. It seems like the monk update introduced a bunch of new, potentially overpowered, items for monks. If the solution to this is to simply introduce equally overpowered items to the other classes, all we're going to see is constant power creep every time some new overpowered item is introduced.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Diffamo » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:48 am

We've got almost the exact same discussion between two groups here, and I like my idea here that I posted on the other forum concerning monks, but also needs to be mulled over by all of the community to make appropriate suggestions to the devs if they are watching! :D

What if the AC from Monk lvls were shed, EWF... any of the weapons dropped, and Edodge is swapped with Defensive roll?

- That would lower the AC enough to be more "mainstream" (higher but not popping 70's anymore)

- Making us take EWF would force monks to decide which weapon they want after sampling all of them pre-epic. Along with burning a 'free feat' in order to up their AB. If they don't go that route, and pick say Improved SR, that is the 'path' they are picking.

- Swapping Edodge for defensive roll then 'burns' another free feat 'if' they want to go that path.

One other caveat could be to deny the 'Blinding Speed' free feat as well. I'm up in the air on that one, but it is an option as its not necessary, but definitely fits the homage to the Mach 10 speeds of prior monks.

All those to me would ensure its a 'tweaking' and not the 'torch em' mentality I've seen on repeat on discord for... days and days now :lol:

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Re: Monk items

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:51 am

I just don't see how any of these are much of a problem.

1. Monks are the most MAD class in the game, that means making plenty of sacrifices just to get "playable" much less good. Add onto the fact that taking a lot of monk typically means you've gimped yourself mightily as the class A) lacks a lot in terms of offense since it has no damage and B) ditto for defense. Even if you could comfortably get +7 Dex/Wis/Con AND stick +2 Discipline AND +1 Uni saves (you can't, really), you're not going to become some massive offensive or defensive powerhouse... You just end up becoming a guy who has to slowly chew through everything... with bad AB.
2. The Update... was largely what's mechanically called a trap. It was almost entirely a quality of life update with it's bonuses coming far too late in the leveling scheme to be reasonable (who really wants to wait til level 12 and 16 for basic weapon feats? Oy).
3. Kama monks got left in the dust with the "update." Their weapon choice became mechanical garbage since their AB and damage fell to the wayside with the new choices. No one rushes to make kama monks with Qstaves and katanas and why would they? So they got a little bump, which didn't really put them on par with the other choices, but it's better than nothing.
4. Most of these items are substandard since you're sacrificing quite a lot for the monk's MAD mechanics...

Disciple's Garb:
Armor Bonus: +3
Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
Discipline +4
Runic

(Not terrible, though most will realize they have a lot better cloths to choose from. Why bother with this when you could take UMD and get Murder, Prenumbral or even Ranger's? Heck, for most sneaky builds, even an Enchanted Fine Silk Shirt is better.)

Disciple's Wraps:

Attack Bonus: +3
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 6 Damage
Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
Runic

(Given fist monks still suck terribly even with the update, having a "weapon" for them that is the same as Masterly Damask after so long is hardly anything to complain about. Given they give up so many slots for a substandard weapon choice that's gotten nerfed with the move to EE (ugh), I hardly think there's anything to complain about here.)

Aspect Beads:

Enchantment Bonus: Constitution +1
Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +1
Enchantment Bonus: Dexterity +1
+4 AC versus Chaotic
Only requires a LESSER rune

(Not that impressive, really. If it didn't have the AC bonus so you could slap +2 Discipline and +1 to saves on it, you might have a point, but it doesn't... Most will (wisely) want to make their own amulet.)

Aspirant's Sash:

Enchantment Bonus: Constitution +1
Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
Skill Bonus: Listen +5
Only usable by: Monk
Only requires a LESSER rune

(Again, you're not comfortably going to make +7 Dex/Wis/Con, +2 Disc, +1 Uni saves gear no matter how you try. Trying to is just a trap and a headache. You're either going to end up with +7 Dex/Con with a little Wisdom or +7 Dex/Wis with a little Con. Hardly the end of the world for a guy who ends up being lackluster offense and defense in the endgame.)

This just seems to be a lot of barking without much experience or substance behind it to me.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:04 am

Oof.

You absolutely can do 3 stat, uni and discipline comfortably. 4 Stat is doable, but not comfortable - and really you don't need to max str, or dex, on either variant.

Monks do not lack damage, they're less 'spiky' than a WM but they output decent damage. Certainly enough to kill someone in a couple of rounds. They additionally excel with very common PvP tactics. Such as, not trading a whole round with someone that will beat them over the round.

You just use a... different weapon, prior to getting the weapon feats. (Is this for real?)

Free feats, damage and AB is not a QoL update. (Neither is removal of monk uncapped speed). Nobody has called this a mechanical trap - the vast majority of Arelith was very happy with the change, the few mechanically savvy people slapped their heads and said "Why are Katanas a monk weapon? Why are monks now the best melee'ers?".

Kama monks have not lost AB, or damage, they have gained it. I believe that Dex Kama monks are biggest damage (very slightly) above ~55 AC in flurry (But of course you can't expertise). STR is katana, dex is (mostly) katana plus the added benefit of exp / PA if you really want it. (It's been a while since I plotted the graph but it's around there)

None of the items are substandard, they're exceptional. Most of those a healer cleric / druid would love to use.

Fist monks are exceptional. They have never sucked. It is entirely down to them being for one mechanic which is probably the worse thing that currently exists in Arelith - namely stun fist.
This just seems to be a lot of barking without much experience or substance behind it to me.
If that is in reference to your own post, then, I agree. ;)
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Re: Monk items

Post by the grim yeeter » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:51 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:51 am
Add onto the fact that taking a lot of monk typically means you've gimped yourself mightily as the class A) lacks a lot in terms of offense since it has no damage and B) ditto for defense. Even if you could comfortably get +7 Dex/Wis/Con AND stick +2 Discipline AND +1 Uni saves (you can't, really), you're not going to become some massive offensive or defensive powerhouse... You just end up becoming a guy who has to slowly chew through everything... with bad AB.
What? Are you even reading the posts in this thread? Are you even running numbers before making such statements? Look at what has been said earlier:
Tarkus the dog wrote: ... 63 ac ( and honestly you can get it more than that. this is without improved expertise) 47 ab (more APR too, because monk), ...
I'll break it down for you.

For AC, that is:
  • Pure strength-based monk:
    • 10 base + 6 monk + 3 garb + 3 helm + 6 WIS + 8 DEX + 6 tumble + 1 boots + 4 barkskin + 2 armor skin + 1 mage armor + 4 haste + 1 skleen + 10 imp exp = 65 AC. Factor in epic dodge for another 5 effective AC, making it 70 AC in 1v1.
    Pure dexterity-based monk:
    • 10 base + 6 monk + 3 garb + 3 helm + 8 WIS + 14 DEX + 6 tumble + 1 boots + 4 barkskin + 2 armor skin + 1 mage armor + 4 haste + 1 skleen + 10 imp exp = 73 AC (72 AC if you prefer +30 HP and +1 fort over +1 AC and +1 will). Factor in epic dodge for another 5 effective AC, making it 78 AC in 1v1.
    20/7/3 strength-based monk:
    • 10 base + 4 monk + 3 garb + 3 helm + 6 WIS + 8 DEX + 6 tumble + 1 boots + 4 barkskin + 2 armor skin + 1 mage armor + 4 haste + 1 skleen + 10 imp exp = 63 AC
    20/7/3 dexterity-based monk:
    • 10 base + 4 monk + 3 garb + 3 helm + 7 WIS + 14 DEX + 6 tumble + 1 boots + 4 barkskin + 2 armor skin + 1 mage armor + 4 haste + 1 skleen + 10 imp exp = 70 AC.
The dexterity AC is retained when caught flat-footed because monks get thrown a free uncanny dodge on Arelith, as well, by the way.

For AB, that is:
  • Pure monk:
    • 15 bab + 5 eab + 14 str/dex + 1 wf + 2 ewf + 1 eprow + 5 monk + 3 weap (4 when kama) = 46 AB when two-handing a katana or fighting unarmed, 47 AB when using the kama, 44-46 AB when dual-wielding either, for a pure monk.
    20/7/3 monk:
    • 16 bab + 5 eab + 14 str/dex + 1 wm + 1 wf + 2 ewf + 1 eprow + 2 monk + 3 weap (4 when kama) = 45 AB when two-handing a katana or fighting unarmed, 46 AB when using the kama, 43-45 AB when dual-wielding either, for a 20/7/3 monk.

Moving on, let us look at the saves:
  • Pure strength-based monk (evil-aligned):
    • Fortitude: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 8 CON + 1 luck of heroes + 3 fort ring + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 37 fortitude (32 vs. non-spells)
      Reflex: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 8 DEX + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 34 reflex (29 vs. non-spells)
      Will: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 6 WIS + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 32 will (27 vs. non-spells)
    Pure dexterity-based monk (evil-aligned):
    • Fortitude: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 8 CON + 1 luck of heroes + 3 fort ring + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 37 fortitude (34 vs. non-spells)
      Reflex: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 14 DEX + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 40 reflex (35 vs. non-spells)
      Will: 12 pre-epic + 5 epic + 8 WIS + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 34 will (29 vs. non-spells)
    20/7/3 strength-based monk (evil-aligned):
    • Fortitude: 11 pre-epic + 5 epic + 7 CON + 1 luck of heroes + 3 fort ring + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 35 fortitude (30 vs. non-spells)
      Reflex: 14 pre-epic + 5 epic + 8 DEX + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 36 reflex (31 vs. non-spells)
      Will: 11 pre-epic + 5 epic + 6 WIS + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 31 will (26 vs. non-spells)
    20/7/3 dexterity-based monk (evil-aligned)
    • Fortitude: 11 pre-epic + 5 epic + 7 CON + 1 luck of heroes + 3 fort ring + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 35 fortitude (30 vs. non-spells)
      Reflex: 14 pre-epic + 5 epic + 14 DEX + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 42 reflex (37 vs. non-spells)
      Will: 11 pre-epic + 5 epic + 7 WIS + 1 luck of heroes + 3 uni + 5 spellcraft = 32 will (27 vs. non-spells)
Not that the will save matters much, because they're mind immune anyway. Reflex saves are made with (Improved) Evasion. Also, I did not count the Maur and Illithid boons. Get the Maur boon and your fortitude would be high enough to save anything except when rolling a 1.

Next up, the unbreachable SR:
  • 30 monk + 10 + 8 improved spell resistance IV = 48
A multi-classed mage (27/3) will end up with a maximum roll of 27 + d20 = 47, meaning a monk is untouchable by a 27/3 mage. Now, let us assume a pure mage, which would roll a 30 + d20 = 50 maximum. Not much better. Alright, then let's assume a pure mage with all the spell penetration feats (absolutely wild and a downright idiotic idea): 30 + 6 + d20 = 56 maximum vs. 48 SR. This is still an incredibly poor trade-off for the mage, because even if you manage to roll luckily and penetrate that SR, all you'd be able to kill a monk with is a heavy nuke, in the end (look at the high saves listed above).

These numbers are not bad. In fact, they are incredibly powerful. This is on top of a constant 150% movement speed (some of you severely underestimate how powerful this is), blinding speed (a free action haste), an undispellable, unpurgeable 50% concealment on cooldown (carry dusts of disappearance with you and it's your 25% concealment vs. 0% concealment of the enemy, assuming they have blind-fight), the fact you hardly need UMD on Arelith anymore (e.g., timestop got nerfed, mord's you can cast from nullification gems, death ward and freedom of movement from potions) and an available 31 - 33 DC chainable stunning fist that ignores both mind immunity and spellcraft to keep someone disabled for rounds on end. That DC could potentially be even higher if you made a fist monk dedicated to stunning.

Also, don't forget the monk apr progression. The apr progression is strong because of several reasons:
  • More attacks, meaning more rolls to hit someone. Simplest reason.
  • AB jumps are in steps of 3, not 5. This means your second attack is relatively more powerful than that of a non-monk (such as a weapon master) is.
  • You can, with one weapon (so while two-handing, meaning higher damage), get in three attacks in your first flurry, two of which are at full AB (due to haste). This means a flurry of fullAB/fullAB/fullAB-3. For the weapon master variant, that is at 13 - 20 / x3 threat range / multiplier. This is extremely potent, especially since your persistent 150% movement speed allows you to keep kiting someone by running towards them, getting in that beastly flurry, zooming off again, and repeat. This strategy was more powerful with the original monk speed (albeit at much lower AB), but it is absolutely still possible when executed correctly, and cleverly.

Lastly, I quickly put this together:

Image

Yes. This is with quite some dedication. If you ditch all the master runes, you lose -3 stats. You would still reach the upper end on all four of them.
Might-N-Magic wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:51 am
This just seems to be a lot of barking without much experience or substance behind it to me.
A flawless way of summarizing your own post. Do you want us to give you dps output calculations too?
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Re: Monk items

Post by xanrael » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:05 pm

the grim yeeter wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:51 pm
an undispellable, unpurgeable 50% concealment on cooldown (carry dusts of disappearance with you and it's your 25% concealment vs. 0% concealment of the enemy,
Small correction, unless this has been changed:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24144&hilit=empty+body

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