Monk items

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the grim yeeter
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Monk items

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:42 am

Hi.

Alright. By now, most of us know how incredibly powerful monks have become. It all started with the big monk update, which initially was even more powerful than it is now. It was adjusted slightly, which was necessary, but still, they're too strong. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

So then, their gearing was supposed to become less comfortable by changing Owl's Insight to only work on druids, which made monks have to gear for wisdom all of a sudden. Good change, you might think (albeit not nearly enough, if this could be considered a nerf even. See below).

But wait. Then, new craftables get added, and you slowly realize that the Owl's Insight nerf does not actually mean what it seemed to. Runic vestments with +2 wisdom and +4 discipline here, runic +3 ab +6 bludg monk gloves with +2 wisdom there. Oh, and is that a +4 ab, keen'd, +7 damage kama? (disregarding the fact a monk would want to use the katana in most cases) - But it does not stop there. As you open chests, you start finding more items of similar power. A +1 con, +1 wis, +1 dex, 4 AC vs. chaotic monk necklace, that requires a lesser rune. And then, there is this:

https://imgur.com/a/Dn4wy3t

A +5 listen, 3 stat monk belt that only requires a LESSER rune, which potentially makes this a 5 stat item. And if you're not as dedicated, all you really need is that little rune to make it a 4 stat item. So let's take a step back here, and list them all:

Disciple's Garb:
  • Armor Bonus: +3
    Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
    Discipline +4
    Runic
    Only usable by: Monk
Disciple's Wraps:
  • Attack Bonus: +3
    Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 6 Damage
    Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
    Runic
Aspect Beads:
  • Enchantment Bonus: Constitution +1
    Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +1
    Enchantment Bonus: Dexterity +1
    +4 AC versus Chaotic
    Only requires a LESSER rune
Aspirant's Sash:
  • Enchantment Bonus: Constitution +1
    Enchantment Bonus: Wisdom +2
    Skill Bonus: Listen +5
    Only usable by: Monk
    Only requires a LESSER rune

Look at that. That's +7 Wisdom on only four items that a monk would definitely all use. Hello, Owl's Insight nerf? What nerf? It's just been replaced by these items.

And it's not just +7 Wisdom gained at a sacrifice, no, it's on top of all kinds of other boni that one would usually go for on a monk (the AB and damage boni on the gloves, the AC and discipline boni on the vestment). What's worse, is that the craftables are runic, and the loot items can be runed with a lesser rune, making both the amulet and the belt potential 5 stat items, or if you want, +2 disc +4 stat items. Or you can slap uni on them, but a monk does not need a lot of uni considering the base monk saves, sky-high SR and mind immunity, lol. Not to mind that three of the primary stats of a monk (DEX, CON and WIS) are all save-stats.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ebonstar
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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:01 am

and all of those are matched by every other class having their own goodies, not OP whatsoever, Monks can actually stand on their own feet now, that is the only major change
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Re: Monk items

Post by Zavandar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:05 am

hmm
Intelligence is too important

the grim yeeter
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Re: Monk items

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:06 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:01 am
and all of those are matched by every other class having their own goodies, not OP whatsoever, Monks can actually stand on their own feet now, that is the only major change
Your post would be constructive and possibly meaningful if you actually gave examples and evidence to back up your statement.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 am

all pure classes have goodies now, with armor and weapons and helms or racial weapons or special runic weapons and armor.

and some of those can be used with dips on multiclass
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Monk items

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 am
all pure classes have goodies now, with armor and weapons and helms or racial weapons or special runic weapons and armor.

and some of those can be used with dips on multiclass
Still, no examples. Also, you're missing the point entirely. Yes, there are race- and class-specific items out there. But the point is that these "goodies", if you compare them to the items listed above, are not as powerful.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am

ok you have your four items.

now lets see what restrictions in place for monks.

for KI strikes to cut DR, have to be unarmed in cloth and no shield.

no UMD of which everyone in every build thread says you have to have ( of which i have always disagreed with personally)

speed cut 100% to just hasted speed now used to be 150% norm now capped at 50%

so potions and mundane items only which have limited duration much less than wands. no scrolls save the raise rez lesser restore group

level 20 damage soak only works against non magical weapons

poor ac or hp cant have both good only one so im told by the builders.

So please elaborate how those four items make this OP.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:56 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
for KI strikes to cut DR, have to be unarmed in cloth and no shield.
DR is irrelevant in the cast majority of cases, or can be made irrelevant.

Being unarmed is not terrible, it never has been. Stun fist building has been viable even post EE nerf to 1 round from 3 - it's just a (relative) pain to level, but in PvP it's the absolute best disable there is (Too good, by a long way).

Now being unarmed is excellent, given that you receive a huge amount of free feats so you can spam ISF, instead of the standard SR katana monks at little cost - or dip COT/FTR and grab a huge DC.
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
no UMD of which everyone in every build thread says you have to have ( of which i have always disagreed with personally)
This was the case pre all the UMD nerfs (SR added to summons / craftable items for WoF, Timestop immunity post 50%, craftable NEP/DW/FOM). UMD is absolutely not needed at all, it's solely for securing with TS now which a monk doesn't need (See stun fist / 150% speed) and more comfy breaching.
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
speed cut 100% to just hasted speed now used to be 150% norm now capped at 50%
You are at 150% all the time. There's no reapplication/application. This is strong, especially considering the Arelith PvP initiation.
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
so potions and mundane items only which have limited duration much less than wands. no scrolls save the raise rez lesser restore group
Craftables are not much less than wands and, even if you're not using them, use/day items are not hard to find and relatively 'low' duration potions are not hard to manage.
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
level 20 damage soak only works against non magical weapons
I'm not sure where to start with this, perhaps it might be better to consider the really great part of Perfect Self, namely the mind immunity?
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
poor ac or hp cant have both good only one so im told by the builders.
You can certainly have both. You can comfily max dex/con/wis, or str/con/wis and slightly less comfily grab str/dex/con/wis.
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:27 am
So please elaborate how those four items make this OP.
Monk is a d8 hp class.
High saves: everything.
1 free AC every 5 levels.
Big SR that can't be lowered.
Mind Immunity.
Inbuilt huge heal.
You are at 150% speed all the time.
ED
BS
(So they are very big defensively)

Access to the best disable in the game.
Very feat light (No need to pick several important feats, you get them for free.)
You can output huge damage.
You can output huge damage in your first flurry. (So you can break combat and do it again, resulting in an absolutely huge trading advantage)
You can grab ED (So your trading advantage is even larger).
(So they are very big offensively)

Monks do not have a counter.

They are hands down the best melee class.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:18 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:01 am
and all of those are matched by every other class having their own goodies, not OP whatsoever, Monks can actually stand on their own feet now, that is the only major change
Sorry to tell you but there is no other class that gets this kind of stat bonus on so many items. Many classes have an armour, maybe an helm. Sure, they are nice, but they are no where near as nice as all of these.

I can't speak for the monk's current power, I have not seen one, or looked into them myself, but their items are off, compared to other classes.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:40 pm

Should probably get rid of the +4 discipline for starters. Also, yeah, imagine weaponmaster only stuff like that? The rage.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:52 pm

ok so because your optimal WM builds that have dominated the server for so long now have competition is why Monks should be nerfed

Helm armor shield bracers for the metal clads

Monks can use bracers if they want to give up their Ki strikes because they have to use weapons,
best helm is what addy plus 3 ac

robe is your ac maybe one or two points on boots if not monk boots and cloak the beads give only vs chaos

imo and im playing a pure monk right now its far from OP against anything using an essenced blade. sure if every fight was with fists, Monks win hands down, but they are not.

any plus one weapon breaks the DR
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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:56 pm

WM has never been top tier, what is this madness.

Monks should be nerfed because they are disproportionately powerful when compared to <everything else>.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:57 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:40 pm
Should probably get rid of the +4 discipline for starters. Also, yeah, imagine weaponmaster only stuff like that? The rage.
wm builds have 13-20 crit range because they always choose the optimal, even with the free improved crit monk crit range is 17 -20 at best.

Just let us have our monks that dont have to hide in the flanks anymore

im sure if everyone decided to nerf wm everyone would be up in arms in the build channels
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Dreams
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Re: Monk items

Post by Dreams » Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:59 pm

I'm playing a pure monk right now. It's the strongest thing I've ever experienced on Arelith. It is well-geared, ridiculously powerful, hasn't even had to ask permission from his master to go beyond 10% power.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Monks prior to the change were more overpowered than they are now. Just in a different way.

Why does... crit range matter in this scenario? The damage output of monks is comparable (APR) and monks trade better in melee than everything that exists, while maintaining a hugely better defensive situation than WM.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Sockss wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:56 pm
WM has never been top tier, what is this madness.

Monks should be nerfed because they are disproportionately powerful when compared to <everything else>.
Monks are just fine, most why everyone is up in the willies about them is cause alot of people who never tried one did with the update, that was well planned and balanced against all the other things out there.

Dont worry the novelty will wear off and noone will care about monks after that. I think I like them because they remind me of old style kensai, before they got ripped to shreds by all the nerf this nerf that we think its a trap

if you dont like the class dont play the class, but dont ruin it for those who do like it
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Re: Monk items

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
if you dont like the class dont play the class, but dont ruin it for those who do like it
"Don't balance things I like"

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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Sockss wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
Monks prior to the change were more overpowered than they are now. Just in a different way.

Why does... crit range matter in this scenario? The damage output of monks is comparable (APR) and monks trade better in melee than everything that exists, while maintaining a hugely better defensive situation than WM.
wrong

ive seen barbs and wm and fighter mixes that do 100plus damage per strike and they have four apr

my monk may have five apr but maxed unarmed is 45-50 with crits at 75-80

this is at level 25 mind you, but wont ever have 100 plus rounds on multiple strikes
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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
if you dont like the class dont play the class, but dont ruin it for those who do like it
"Don't balance things I like"
it is balanced

just because the git gud gang doesnt care for it doesnt mean it isnt balanced
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the grim yeeter
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Re: Monk items

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:06 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:52 pm
ok so because your optimal WM builds that have dominated the server for so long now have competition is why Monks should be nerfed

Helm armor shield bracers for the metal clads

Monks can use bracers if they want to give up their Ki strikes because they have to use weapons,
best helm is what addy plus 3 ac

robe is your ac maybe one or two points on boots if not monk boots and cloak the beads give only vs chaos

imo and im playing a pure monk right now its far from OP against anything using an essenced blade. sure if every fight was with fists, Monks win hands down, but they are not.

any plus one weapon breaks the DR
You're saying things that simply are not true. Please, if you're not up-to-date or in any way well-informed on the mechanics, refrain from posting in threads like these.

WMs haven't ever "dominated". The 20/7/3 has very clear weaknesses (e.g., low will, mediocre to moderate reflex, reliant on critical hits) and the ways of disabling/killing one are very straightforward. Monks have none of these weaknesses.

It's very clear you're playing a monk yourself, yes, because you've been desperately trying to deny monks being overpowered (and you are failing to do so). Your bias is clear. Simply because you aren't seeing or experiencing the power of it, does not mean the class is not currently imbalanced. In fact, I would even go so far as to say you're not playing it right, mechanically.

I'm not even going to reply to the rest because it's written incoherently and hardly anything of what you're saying is making any sense. I'm sorry.
Last edited by the grim yeeter on Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monk items

Post by Nitro » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:06 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm
Sockss wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
Monks prior to the change were more overpowered than they are now. Just in a different way.

Why does... crit range matter in this scenario? The damage output of monks is comparable (APR) and monks trade better in melee than everything that exists, while maintaining a hugely better defensive situation than WM.
wrong

ive seen barbs and wm and fighter mixes that do 100plus damage per strike and they have four apr

my monk may have five apr but maxed unarmed is 45-50 with crits at 75-80

this is at level 25 mind you, but wont ever have 100 plus rounds on multiple strikes
Of course a fist build is never gonna match the damage of a twohander, but a twohand katana monk can match those numbers AND get more AC than they get to boot with better saves and permanent movespeed increase.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:09 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm
Sockss wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
Monks prior to the change were more overpowered than they are now. Just in a different way.

Why does... crit range matter in this scenario? The damage output of monks is comparable (APR) and monks trade better in melee than everything that exists, while maintaining a hugely better defensive situation than WM.
wrong

ive seen barbs and wm and fighter mixes that do 100plus damage per strike and they have four apr

my monk may have five apr but maxed unarmed is 45-50 with crits at 75-80

this is at level 25 mind you, but wont ever have 100 plus rounds on multiple strikes
The class is broken, it's not about liking it or not. The update was not balanced.

Uncapped speed from Monk was the best thing in the game, it enabled you to do ridiculous things. It's also obvious from this that you have very little to no mechanical knowledge - which is fine, but a feedback thread on balance is probably not the place to be posting.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:11 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:06 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:05 pm
Sockss wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:01 pm
Monks prior to the change were more overpowered than they are now. Just in a different way.

Why does... crit range matter in this scenario? The damage output of monks is comparable (APR) and monks trade better in melee than everything that exists, while maintaining a hugely better defensive situation than WM.
wrong

ive seen barbs and wm and fighter mixes that do 100plus damage per strike and they have four apr

my monk may have five apr but maxed unarmed is 45-50 with crits at 75-80

this is at level 25 mind you, but wont ever have 100 plus rounds on multiple strikes
Of course a fist build is never gonna match the damage of a twohander, but a twohand katana monk can match those numbers AND get more AC than they get to boot with better saves and permanent movespeed increase.
damage of a two hander is 1-10 with katana fists are 1-20 blinding speed doesnt give any speed bonus and ac doesnt grow from nothing because you use two hands

oh I admit i dont pull everything onto a spreadsheet and put it through whatever it is you guys do
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Re: Monk items

Post by Sockss » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:13 pm

I'm now convinced you're just trolling, holy moly. Excellent bait.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: Monk items

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:17 pm

I agree, /s let's bring back Biteback barbarians and Warlock/Feylock pre DR nerf. Bring back the Kensai class and unnerf timestop.

All of these are toxic examples of power, maybe not so much Kensai. However it just shows some shit is too strong and needs to be nerfed.

Also Sockss is right about monk speed being one of the best things in the game, however I'd disagree saying WM's were never that good. They were quite exceptional when you could time stop eliminate a caster before the disable ended. However I'll admit it isn't anything special because at that time melee were running around with artifacts, so they could have just looked artificially strong because of gearing.
Last edited by Cerk Evermoore on Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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