Monks

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RedGiant
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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:44 pm

To Ebonstar's point, no one is arguing that monks aren't better than they were. They are. The question is whether they are game breaking at the moment? From what I've seen so far, I would argue "no".

Granted, this "no" is reflective of the current Arelith melee balance which is the result of many decisions over a long time. This current balance means that "top shelf" melee practically requires you to shoot for stratospheric AB (50+), AC (60+), HP (600+), Combat Skills (add 20 to the AB of your opponent) and Saves (as high as you can get them baby!)...and its probably not safe to leave any one of these areas weak.
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Monks

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:27 pm

It seems to me that monk is a class designed to be strong defensively, at the cost of being strong offensively.

High AC, high fort/reflex/will, high spell resistance, diamond body, diamond soul, perfect self, etc etc etc etc.

Virtually all of its boons scream defense, and this is meant to come at the cost of having a horrific attack bonus and middling damage output. It looks like the changes made to monk were made to shore up its one weakness (damage), but by shoring up that weakness the whole premise of the class appears to be undermined.

I also think, as I've said on these forums before, that we're balancing all classes up towards WM when we should be balancing WM down towards all other classes, which is part of, I would argue, what's going on with monk.

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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:12 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:44 pm
To Ebonstar's point, no one is arguing that monks aren't better than they were. They are. The question is whether they are game breaking at the moment? From what I've seen so far, I would argue "no".

Granted, this "no" is reflective of the current Arelith melee balance which is the result of many decisions over a long time. This current balance means that "top shelf" melee practically requires you to shoot for stratospheric AB (50+), AC (60+), HP (600+), Combat Skills (add 20 to the AB of your opponent) and Saves (as high as you can get them baby!)...and its probably not safe to leave any one of these areas weak.
Lay me out a build, with replicable guidelines, that can hit 60+ AC and 47 or higher AB, at the same time, for a period of time as defined as '4-5 buff potions + haste,' if you believe monks are about even standard with anything else.

That's all. I'm not asking for SR, speed, saves, epic dodge, 50% conceal, heal, epic weapon spec, or, and this is important to point out: the ability to do this pure classed while taking dex/tumble/disc and nothing the hell else.

Seriously. Put the comparable build together. 60 or higher AC while maintaining 47 or higher AB. That's it. Any combination of classes so long as you can hit that AC with haste, and the AB with nothing other than gear and buff potions, like anyone can with monk right now, and I will swap immediately to your side.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:26 pm

Pure Druid.

*drops mike*
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The Greater Good
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:34 pm

oh shit make are you okay

'Pure druid'
That's the one I was looking for! The one everyone agrees is OP except people who got nerfed when their No-brain-to-play-click-to-win Dragonshaper/Monks were invalidated by-
hm.

Hey so why'd you roll a monk this time?
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monks

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Good idea, referencing only druids can do the same thing, and nobody considers them overpowered either...

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:36 pm

That was fun, and troll bait. But, without really trying...
Tarkus the dog wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:18 am
Here's one I just made in PGCC:
Looks pretty standard. Runes give you a +6 to all of those saves if you bother going that far. Now let's check when fully buffed: (Divine shield, divine might, prayer, aid, divine favor, holy sword, deafening clang) No bless because I assumed no one bothers slotting that.

Image

Image

And on top of all of that, you have dispel on hit.
Last edited by RedGiant on Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Monks

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:37 pm

Good idea, reference paladins holy sword. Which is also overpowered. Do we link healing potions next lol?

The Greater Good
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:39 pm

Now let's check when fully buffed: (Divine shield, divine might, prayer, aid, divine favor, holy sword, deafening clang)
hit that AC with haste, and the AB with nothing other than gear and buff potions
But, fair is fair, I'm on your side now. Monks are completely fine, and perfectly balanced, when compared to air monolith druids and fully buffed paladins. That's about balanced, right?
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:11 pm

I sense sarcasm. Shall we go on to all the other permutations of current melee insanity....with black-guards, pale-masters, etc.?

You keep adding to your list. I know its tacky to quote yourself, but here we go.
RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:44 pm
Granted, this "no" is reflective of the current Arelith melee balance which is the result of many decisions over a long time.
If you want to argue that we've taken things too far as a server, that's another argument.
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The Greater Good
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:14 pm

Pale Masters just got nerfed, and rightly.

Look. I like monks. I enjoy playing them. I want them to be more than mega-speed or a kama rogue dip. But I'm also not going to convince myself they aren't getting toned down later. And I would rather they get nerfed now or soon, when people have run the numbers very ably, than they get the feylock treatment when the evidence piles up for six months.
feylocks should get their old debuff riders on blasts back
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

Sea Shanties
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Re: Monks

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:57 pm

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:26 pm
Pure Druid.

*drops mike*
*Mike gets up, brushes himself off, asks "What did I do to deserve that?"*

xanrael
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Re: Monks

Post by xanrael » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:13 pm

Poor bards, rarely mentioned:
A divine Dex bard (26/4) can hit 66+ AC and 47+ AB while also providing a ton of utility to the party by helping everyone else and making enemies way easier to hit as well as even failing Discipline checks. Also has full access to UMD.

As an added bonus a pure level 30 bard could hit 60 AC and 47 AB, though their melee damage is bad. This could be made even more fearsome as the 60 AC 65 discipline opponent drops to 53 AC and 46 discipline with the press of a button and in a group fight even against geared level 30s can have people spend 90% of the battle on their butt. Personally I'd rather have a monk on the opposing side than a bard.

On the actual note of nerfing monks, I do think they need a balancing pass. I felt pretty confident that it would happen as soon as they gained the katana as a UBAB weapon as that meant they'd be compared to traditional 20/7/3 WMs as that's the gold standard of [melee] balance on Arelith.

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Re: Monks

Post by Quidix » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:45 pm

Quite a lot of not-too-helpful examples being thrown around derailing the actual discussion. Paladins have massive wind-up times and will excel for only a short period. Druids rely heavily on their summons, which can be dispelled (and even so they rely on massive buff sequence in advance).

Even if these examples were comparable, which I don't think they are, the fact that there may be 1-2 other builds that can at their peak compare to pure monks hardly seems a solid justification for "they are balanced".

The issue with the pure monks is the lack of effective counters to the dex build (STR has modest AC, so I think they're acceptable), given the extremely high AC, saves, SR, speed, concealment and good damage. And all that comes 'ready to attack' without any windup time. One of those aspects need a serious tone-down.

I'd suggest to simply tone down the AB/damage boosts and put a UMD requirement on the breach shield.

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:53 pm

The Greater Good wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:12 pm
RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:44 pm
To Ebonstar's point, no one is arguing that monks aren't better than they were. They are. The question is whether they are game breaking at the moment? From what I've seen so far, I would argue "no".

Granted, this "no" is reflective of the current Arelith melee balance which is the result of many decisions over a long time. This current balance means that "top shelf" melee practically requires you to shoot for stratospheric AB (50+), AC (60+), HP (600+), Combat Skills (add 20 to the AB of your opponent) and Saves (as high as you can get them baby!)...and its probably not safe to leave any one of these areas weak.
Lay me out a build, with replicable guidelines, that can hit 60+ AC and 47 or higher AB, at the same time, for a period of time as defined as '4-5 buff potions + haste,' if you believe monks are about even standard with anything else.

That's all. I'm not asking for SR, speed, saves, epic dodge, 50% conceal, heal, epic weapon spec, or, and this is important to point out: the ability to do this pure classed while taking dex/tumble/disc and nothing the hell else.

Seriously. Put the comparable build together. 60 or higher AC while maintaining 47 or higher AB. That's it. Any combination of classes so long as you can hit that AC with haste, and the AB with nothing other than gear and buff potions, like anyone can with monk right now, and I will swap immediately to your side.
Ask Jen on discord. Im not a super expert builder but would like to invite the builders i use to have mixed opinions about into this conversation.

Str 20monk/7 wm/ 3 rogue

Build should be only 2 ab lower than cookie cutter build with arleith ki fist bonus applyobg to ab for ki fist 1 and 2 (pre epic ab is 16). Your second attack is only minus 3 and thus same as cookie cutter wm ans youe third attsck actaully has higher ab.

I try to break it down though i rarelly do epic level stuff and might miss something. But i know for a the difference in ab for a cookie cutter wm and monk wm should only be 2 with base 16 vs base 20 pre epic ab and factoring in arelith ab bonuses to monk weapons

21 bab

Base str 26 + 12 = 38 = bonus of 14

Weapon epic weapon prowess = 4

Wm extra 1

Ki fist 5 from 20 monk provides 2 extra ab arelith changes.

Master demask katana plus 3 ab

21
14
4
1
2
3

= 45/42/39/36/33/30 before haste.

That's without spending any feats on improving str score

Your potential max ab is 4 lower via true strike potion but all those attacks with true strike will be quite nice with a good criting wm build.

Now for AC

Im going to assume base dex of 14 and wisdom 10 as im not sure how much one will sacrifice con and you need 13 dex for wm anyways. Im going to assume one is going to gear really wel like plus 1 dex wis and str on a bunch of items. (Some people apparently do 4 plus 1 on sone items which would remove sacrificing con too much).

I am also going to mistakenly assume (because i dont feel like looking up all the boots and cloaks ans unraveling all dwoemer crafting secrets that i don't know.) That between items and potions, the one can achieve plus 12 in str dex and wis.

Base 10
Wis 6
Dex 8
Monk 4
Disciple garbs 3
Barkskin 3 (or higher with umd?)
Deflection 4 (shield potion) (if too many potions then pick 3 ac and buff barkskin to be higher
Haste 4
Tumble 6
Armor skin 2 (didnt get epic strength feats)

I think 49 without combat expertise.

Im not sure your 47 ab and 60 ac request was to have both at the same time (not sure how wm does 60 ac withour IE)

But im looking at 59 ac maybe even more depending how barkskin interacts or dodge boots, etc.


TLDR:

The str based 20 monk/7 wm/ 3 rogue can achieve the roughly same ac, 2 less ab max with more attacks and per round and less decrease on each attack.

-It has Better damage per attack with more attackd (no epic weapon spec, but has plus 3 damage from monk
Without having to burn an epic feat while having more attacks per round in addition with -two hand bonus damage)

- comparable ac capabilities and a lot more immunties including no fear of crippling strike from rogues causing them to be encumbered, constantly moving fast. And still has umd to boot. Give this samurai Jack a holy avenger scroll with a plain katwna and he will slay Aku.


*edit*

Id move to play samurai jack but i feel maybe ki bonuses need to be slightly tweaked, maybe different scaled bonuses for different weapons and, or removing -two hand from katanas.

We can then go from there and review pure monks epic dodge another time.

The Greater Good
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Re: Monks

Post by The Greater Good » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:03 pm

Katana needs removed from the UBaB list, honestly. The point of the exercise was that there are, yes, a couple of setups (fully buffed Air Elemental Monolith Druid) that can hit the numbers monks can, for long term use, not just burst, its not as easy, does not come with as many other benefits, and have more downsides.

I'm not begging for monks to get destroyed, just calmed down a little bit. Make it so you need to burn a feat on Edodge, or give them breachable SR. Divide them up a little bit with featlines and or paths so you can be a magekiller Or a high ac build Or a DPR Bruiser.
Monte Cook wrote:The idea here is that the game just gives the rules, and players figure out the ins and outs for themselves -- players are rewarded for achieving mastery of the rules and making good choices rather than poor ones.

Diffamo
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Re: Monks

Post by Diffamo » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:39 am

What if the AC from Monk lvls were shed, EWF... any of the weapons dropped, and Edodge is swapped with Defensive roll?

- That would lower the AC enough to be more "mainstream" (higher but not popping 70's anymore)

- Making us take EWF would force monks to decide which weapon they want after sampling all of them pre-epic. Along with burning a 'free feat' in order to up their AB. If they don't go that route, and pick say Improved SR, that is the 'path' they are picking.

- Swapping Edodge for defensive roll then 'burns' another free feat 'if' they want to go that path.

One other caveat could be to deny the 'Blinding Speed' free feat as well. I'm up in the air on that one, but it is an option as its not necessary, but definitely fits the homage to the Mach 10 speeds of prior monks.

All those to me would ensure its a 'tweaking' and not the 'torch em' mentality I've seen on repeat on discord for... days and days now :lol:

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:59 am

Removing ac via monk is an ugh suggestion. I wonder if equipment is part of the problem. Like being able to 4 stat some of the stuff. But defensive roll instead of epic dodge isnt a bad idea except then every pure monk has to be dex based to grab that sweet epic dodge. Not end of the world, but something to consider.

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Re: Monks

Post by RedGiant » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:01 am

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:57 pm
RedGiant wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:26 pm
Pure Druid.

*drops mike*
*Mike gets up, brushes himself off, asks "What did I do to deserve that?"*
Fine...mic. lol

I'm done with this thread after this...really I am...but, for reference [and in addition to xanrael's fine example]....I just built an Orog BG/PM on the PGCC. Granted, I could "only" get 45AB with 69AC...but still...wasn't trying too hard...and missing some key gear available in the module proper. Also gets BG saves, Divine Might/Shield, Orog equipment goodness...oh...and I almost forgot, it also has both blackguard and PM T5 and T5/T6 summons respectively. This could probably be tweaked at a loss of some direct melee potential to shoe-horn in a Dracolich or at least a Mummy Dust. This was done with EMA, of course, and potion slugging only. I think it would likey be more impressive when fully buffed with its UMD kit.

Really, the band could play on...but I sense no amount of facts here will suffice. Either most of Arelith high end melee balance is broken or monks are just another potentially high-end competitor.
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Brahtius
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Re: Monks

Post by Brahtius » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:03 am

Have you fought any Monks on the live server?

Hazard
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Re: Monks

Post by Hazard » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:15 am

I play a pure druid and I've fought a lot of them. PvP-wise they aren't OP. In fact, I find them one of the easier to counter classes (for my own characters).

I haven't fought the new monk, but they look pretty scary on paper in some ways. Haven't been back long enough to know if they are OP or not, but I can at least give you the perspective of a fresh pair of eyes. When I came back, I had no idea monks had been updated at all, but I very quickly went to see if they were because it was WEIRD how many monks I was running into. I knew something had to be up :P

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Re: Monks

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:49 am

I had a spar yesterday with my monk vs a barb with a blood axe, terms were straight fight no magic

he used his rage I used empty body and we fought

I could hit him but so could he hit me

and he could cut my down at 44ac and 320 hp than i could take out his 500 plus

i had him to injured i was dead in the sand

his axe cut me like butter plain and simple

all the over power rants are from people who only look at paper mechanics they dont play the actual class.

oh and he was level 22 to my 25
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Re: Monks

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:03 am

That means nothing. Classes are not balanced to random builds, at random levels, with arbitrary fighting rules.

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Re: Monks

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:36 am

As i pointed out earlier withbl sstr monk wm being comparable to cookie cutter wm, i think the tweaks need to be bare minimun and not nuked


What i am primarily interested in discussing is

Str base 20 monk/7 wm/ 3 rogue vs cookie cutter wm

This is not a meme build, they compete in both ac and ab. Both builds have umd and this is a good basis to know if monks get too much even for non pures. Im not sure its a big deal as heavy armor also does damage resistance and the cookie wm has more hp, which is important when fighting warlock mage, etc. Someone more familiar with equipment potential needs to lay this comparison our more though

I also would like to compare a pure dex monk directly to a dodge monk so we can have a good idea of what pure monks gains for giving up umd and sneak damage, etc.

(I don't think shield breaching is a black and white solution for non umd as one's a.c. will have their defense ability take a massive dump while shield is equipped and forcing a monk to require a shield to breach you can let you get several hits while he plays with the shield. Elemental shield can also easily be recasted)

And while we compare pure dex monk to e dodge monk we can compared str based pure monk to wm to see what pure str monk with the whole "do we give too much for no umd speel"

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Re: Monks

Post by Invader_Nym » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:36 am

Talking about the mechanics of the monk changes without talking about the philosophy that motivated them is, in my opinion, putting the cart before the horse. What's happening here as far as I can tell is we have a tiny handful of builds (WM being at the head of the pack) eclipsing all other builds such that anyone playing any of those other builds alongside a WM becomes a superfluous member of the party. I've been in groups with WMs and barbs (the latter of which was balanced up towards WM) running the epic UD content and the enemies were dead before my archer could even get in range to shoot. Our response to this phenomenon has been to give massive amounts of power to everyone full-stop, the net result being that rather than groups being cohesive teams where everyone plays a vital role, they are instead groups of 3-4 people clambering over each-other to get the most frags.

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