Drow Gifts

[NauVaseline]

I find Drow to be a bit mechanically lacluster now. They're Humans without the bonus feat and forced awkward gift selection. You have to use your minor gift just to 'customize' to somewhat less-awkward gift selection (I don't recall Bloodlines having to do this?). They'll never get the opportunity to match Sun Elven Wizards as they do in Lore (Sun Elves can stack two separate +2 INT bonuses). SR is only consistently useful if you grind in area's suboptimal for your level, or in level-mismatched PvP.

It'd be cool if they had one gift.
It'd definitely be cool if they didn't have to waste their minor on the 'melee-magthere' or 'clergy' "gifts" because they are frankly more like historical backgrounds.

yeet

[the grim yeeter]

32 SR is very, very powerful, also in level 30 vs. level 30 PvP.

[NauVaseline]

I'd be willing to trade it away for more attribute customization. really dislike being shoehorned into a few class combos

32 SR is very, very powerful, also in level 30 vs. level 30 PvP.

Is it a 5% or 15% chance to intercept an incoming spell? Either way, having played Humans for a year I can honestly say I do not miss Spell Resistance.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I feel this issue extends beyond drow into several UD races. Ones whom lack special racial equipment especially.

[Sea Shanties]

Being able to customize with a minor gift is a blessing. I wish all 2 ECL races had that option. I've long wanted svrifs to have the ability to drop the 2 wis for 2 int, for example, since they're supposed to be excellent arcanists but instead can't reach the top INT of most other races. How many people pass on playing a deep gnome illusionist because you have to start at 17 or 18? Likewise with orogs, being able to swap a few stats might do a lot to encourage some concepts beyond blackguard. I really think every character, even at 2 or more ECL, should have a few options where to focus stats.

Drow also have incredibly strong crossbows at their disposal and a built-in dominance of all things underdark. Maybe they could be tweaked a bit but I don't think they're weak when you consider all factors including those that aren't strictly mechanical.

[The Greater Good]

Even strictly mechanically they aren't exactly weak.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Sea Shanties explained my exact opinion. Lack of versitility feels like it holds back most monster races in the UD.

If lesser gifts would help you redistribute your bonuses, I could see that going a long way in expanding character concepts.

[NauVaseline]

Being able to customize with a minor gift is a blessing. I wish all 2 ECL races had that option. I've long wanted svrifs to have the ability to drop the 2 wis for 2 int, for example, since they're supposed to be excellent arcanists but instead can't reach the top INT of most other races. How many people pass on playing a deep gnome illusionist because you have to start at 17 or 18? Likewise with orogs, being able to swap a few stats might do a lot to encourage some concepts beyond blackguard. I really think every character, even at 2 or more ECL, should have a few options where to focus stats.

So think about how Aasimar and Tieflings got this customization without having to spend any gifts. Yes, all of the UD races could do with this.

Anyways, the current system inspires stagnation of character concept, as others have pointed out, beyond just Drow.

Drow also have incredibly strong crossbows at their disposal and a built-in dominance of all things underdark. Maybe they could be tweaked a bit but I don't think they're weak when you consider all factors including those that aren't strictly mechanical.

Lackluster and weak are not the same - and having racial weapons is really nifty but it in my opinion actually worsens the lack of variety in concept.

[Durvayas]

Drow also have incredibly strong crossbows at their disposal and a built-in dominance of all things underdark. Maybe they could be tweaked a bit but I don't think they're weak when you consider all factors including those that aren't strictly mechanical.

The point about the crossbows is true. The drow do have powerful crossbows.

The latter point is completely bunk. If the latter was true, then the drow would not have to be almost permanently allied with eachother and virtually all the nonhuman factions to counter the human population's numbers.

The entirety of the UD's monster population, including the drow, is roughly equal to the human population.

If the drow(and really, it shouldn't be limited to JUST the drow) and other races were given their gifts back, you'd see a surge in ALL of the monster race populations.
While SR is nice, humans can fully customize and STILL come out with a lower ECL, while still getting an additional feat and more skillpoints than any UD race.
Humans are mechanically superior to everything because they can BE everything. This is why human is "Standard" for the building guides, and new players who don't know much about the lore generate humans.
I don't think its unrealistic to say that the human population has exploded across the board serverwide while nonhuman races, surface AND underdark, have been stagnant or shrunken by comparison if you look at the pre-gift-change population ratios.


If monsters were, in general, more versatile and powerful, you'd see more of them; Enough that they wouldn't need to be in an effectively permanent network of alliances to maintain control of the only settlement that accepts them.

[xanrael]

It would be nice to perhaps see an option that gave +1 to one of the stats a race has a negative in for -1 to a stat a race has a positive bonus in, ideally as something that doesn't burn a minor. So a gnoll for example could lose -1 str or con to give +1 to int or cha. That gives some customization to races but keeps humans as the most versatile still.

[Ecthelion]

I'd be willing to trade it away for more attribute customization. really dislike being shoehorned into a few class combos

32 SR is very, very powerful, also in level 30 vs. level 30 PvP.

Is it a 5% or 15% chance to intercept an incoming spell? Either way, having played Humans for a year I can honestly say I do not miss Spell Resistance.

Assuming CL 27 and no spell penetration feats, that's 25% chances not to be affected. I'd take that. 10% for CL 30.
WoFs scrolls, for instance, are pretty much outright useless due to 32 SR.

[Alantar]

I think the numbers for a SR32 are:

20% to resist a spell cast by a CL 27
10% to resist a spell cast by a CL 27 + Spell penetration feat.
5% to resist a spell cast by a CL 30

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

Wizard 26 Bard 4 is also a thing

[Ecthelion]

I think the numbers for a SR32 are:

20% to resist a spell cast by a CL 27
10% to resist a spell cast by a CL 27 + Spell penetration feat.
5% to resist a spell cast by a CL 30

Yeah, there's a 5% margin depending on if the roll must just match or be higher than the SR. It considered the latter.
CL 26 would be 25% if it must match, 30% if it must be higher.

[Kalopsia]

The spell penetration roll only must match the target's SR, not exceed it.
But.. considering that one of the first thing people cast in PvP is Mords (the spell or a scroll), Drow SR doesn't matter a lot against dedicated casters (the odds to resist spells people mentioned above are lowered to 0% across the board due to the resulting SR reduction). In high level PvE, meanwhile, SR is somewhat convenient, but definitely not essential. Enemies keep rolling high when you direly hope to resist that one spell. :D

Now if the Drow SR progression (10+level) continued till level 30 (lore-wise it probably should), it'd make a huge difference.
But it'd also be terribly overpowered. Don't do that.

Give Drow one major gift. That won't make them overpowered, but it'll give them the potential to be equally powerful WMs as most other elven subraces, or equally good wizards as Sun Elves. (As the second major gift is often CON, they'll still be lacking in the HP department compared to the former subraces, so there's a trade-off.)

Duergar have ECL+1 and innate +2STR, allowing them to stack their starting STR up to 22. Orogs have ECL+2, but also can start the game with 22 Strength. Both races have racial melee weapons to push their AB even higher, Duergar even get free 30HP, poison and paralyze immunity as well as +2 saves against spells on top. 32 racial SR cannot compete with that. Not unless Mords is changed to stop lowering it in PvP.

[Sea Shanties]

Drow also have incredibly strong crossbows at their disposal and a built-in dominance of all things underdark. Maybe they could be tweaked a bit but I don't think they're weak when you consider all factors including those that aren't strictly mechanical.

The point about the crossbows is true. The drow do have powerful crossbows.

The latter point is completely bunk. If the latter was true, then the drow would not have to be almost permanently allied with eachother and virtually all the nonhuman factions to counter the human population's numbers.

One, can we actually have a conversation here without the snide and insulting tone? I mean why make enemies of each other here needlessly, we're just talking about a silly Dungeons and Dragons game. I always think your comments are insightful and on point but I dread a response from you because it's almost always borderline hostile.

Two, when I say advantages I mean drow characters can reach levels of in-game power in Anundor unlike anyone else. Even with the large population of outcasts that sometimes outnumber them, even with the loss of their own insular city, there's nothing like a Drow House or matron. I've played almost every UD race at one point back in the Udos days and now (with a large gap between) and RP-wise no other race can hit the ground running or reach the levels of power the same way a drow character can. Some monster or other UD races leave a mark or get close, sure, and I'm not saying drow have it easy by any means (if anything, it's a very intimidating race to play in no small part because of the dedication of other drow) but even in 2019 a duergar or goblin or kobold still feels like a side character in the drow story.

That's all mechanics aside. I would always prefer more customization options over limiting races to a narrow perception and said nothing to vote against that, I am just trying to express that there is an RP advantage to playing a drow and it's one that you really feel when playing any other race down there besides outcast human.

[Durvayas]

Drow also have incredibly strong crossbows at their disposal and a built-in dominance of all things underdark. Maybe they could be tweaked a bit but I don't think they're weak when you consider all factors including those that aren't strictly mechanical.

The point about the crossbows is true. The drow do have powerful crossbows.

The latter point is completely bunk. If the latter was true, then the drow would not have to be almost permanently allied with eachother and virtually all the nonhuman factions to counter the human population's numbers.

One, can we actually have a conversation here without the snide and insulting tone? I mean why make enemies of each other here needlessly, we're just talking about a silly Dungeons and Dragons game. I always think your comments are insightful and on point but I dread a response from you because it's almost always borderline hostile.

Two, when I say advantages I mean drow characters can reach levels of in-game power in Anundor unlike anyone else. Even with the large population of outcasts that sometimes outnumber them, even with the loss of their own insular city, there's nothing like a Drow House or matron. I've played almost every UD race at one point back in the Udos days and now (with a large gap between) and RP-wise no other race can hit the ground running or reach the levels of power the same way a drow character can. Some monster or other UD races leave a mark or get close, sure, and I'm not saying drow have it easy by any means (if anything, it's a very intimidating race to play in no small part because of the dedication of other drow) but even in 2019 a duergar or goblin or kobold still feels like a side character in the drow story.

That's all mechanics aside. I would always prefer more customization options over limiting races to a narrow perception and said nothing to vote against that, I am just trying to express that there is an RP advantage to playing a drow and it's one that you really feel when playing any other race down there besides outcast human.

1. Sorry. I wasn't actually trying to come off as hostile.

2. While matrons DO attain social capital fairly quickly and recruit minions fast, any individual of any race in Andunor can quickly become a political force if they can recruit a dedicated cadre of PCs.

The main issue I see with monster race leaders is they tend to tribalistically try hard to limit their numbers to just their race(which is already a minority), whereas the drow will take retainers of any race to serve them, and amass large forces quickly in this way.

You do have your outliers, like Arakh son of Mog, of the iron order of death to the elves. Who are truly charismatic rulers who accept literally anyone, and they become truly massive factions, but I'd say that the one advantage the drow have over the other monster races is numbers, because you can have multiple drow factions without stealing what is effectively market share from eachother. If a kobold tribe has all of the kobolds, starting a second one will weaken the first.

Make them stronger across the board, and you'll definitely see more of them.