Racial Weapons - More variety?

[Subutai]

Racial weapons, look Swords of the Dale and Moonblades, are awesome for making the not-as-strong-as-humans races more appealing. They add a lot of sometimes much-needed power to those races to bring them onto even footing with humans.

However, this power comes with a significant downside: Not only does using a weapon type that isn't a racial weapon not help their weakness against humans, it also makes them less effective than their fellows. An elf with a Lesser Moonblade might have gained a lot of power, but an elf with a spear (a la Gil-Galad) is weaker than both humans and other elves who use longswords.

The problem with this is that it results in racial flexibility being, ultimately, even more limited. An elven melee character is always much better off using a longsword than any other weapon, by far, unless they're using a different weapon for flavor. This makes our Gil-Galad-style spear-wielding elf much less optimal, and limits them a lot.

Would it be unreasonable to have multiple different racial weapons per race, per category? A couple or a few melee and a couple or few range weapons per race, to help them out while letting them have a little variety?

[JubJub]

I'm still not sure why 16sr is on the dale sword, by lvl 21 (when you can use the dale sword) does 16 sr actually matter?

[Richørd]

I'm still not sure why 16sr is on the dale sword, by lvl 21 (when you can use the dale sword) does 16 sr actually matter?

Why does that one jewelry helmet recipe give +21 SR which does not matter at all at lvl 30?

Simple. Because it helps out with running throw lower level areas.

[JubJub]

I'm still not sure why 16sr is on the dale sword, by lvl 21 (when you can use the dale sword) does 16 sr actually matter?

Why does that one jewelry helmet recipe give +21 SR which does not matter at all at lvl 30?

Simple. Because it helps out with running throw lower level areas.

The problem is a dale sword can't be used until lvl 21, so you won't be running through low level areas. By the time you can equip a dale sword 16sr is useless.

[Jack Oat]

I'm still not sure why 16sr is on the dale sword, by lvl 21 (when you can use the dale sword) does 16 sr actually matter?

Why does that one jewelry helmet recipe give +21 SR which does not matter at all at lvl 30?

Simple. Because it helps out with running throw lower level areas.

lmao literally wat

It gives 26 SR, which blocks WoF scrolls (CL 13) 65% of the time. It also negates Silence UMD (CL 3), Hold Person UMD (CL 5), blocks Hold Monster UMD (CL 7) 95% of the time, and renders a number of other old UMD tactics null-and-void. Also blocks low-level casters fairly effectively (CL 16 is only 50% chance to break). In short the Headband of Protection ABSOLUTELY matters.

The Dale Sword's 16 SR? idk, flavor maybe?

[Sea Shanties]

Would it be unreasonable to have multiple different racial weapons per race, per category? A couple or a few melee and a couple or few range weapons per race, to help them out while letting them have a little variety?

I could see some racial crafting not being weapon or armor item specific, or at least opening it up to a category. Like any hin smith could make a "Dale" version of any small or tiny-sized weapon.

It is definitely lopsided, like a hin rogue has a huge advantage over a gnome by being able to use dale swords. Be nice if there were some more customizable options to make race more for the RP choice than trying to find the optimal stat and top equipment combo.

[Kalopsia]

I believe racial weapons are not necessarily meant to mechanically balance various races in comparison to humans, because in that case it’d make more sense to either nerf humans or buff the stats/ECL of said other races.

Much rather these items have been added to reflect a (sub)race’s cultural weapon preferences. If a weapon is more powerful than others, more characters will use it. That way, the average Elf is more likely to wield a longsword, for example, which is Corellon’s favored weapon.

The same concept could also apply to the balance of humans and other races. Humans, due to their extra feat, skill points and three gifts, are a powerful (if not the most powerful) choice for many builds - intentionally so, to make them more common than these other races.

Unfortunately this approach necessitates mechanical power discrepancies that often shouldn’t exist according to lore. Compromises between setting demographics and game mechanics will always be necessary.

[Subutai]

[...]

If this was the goal, it seems like a very reasonable goal, especially in the cases of weapons being mechanically inferior. However, a lot of these changes go beyond just making them a little more appealing, and into the territory of being the only reasonable choice. Lesser Moonblades don't just give longswords a bit of an edge for elves over other weapons, they're far and away the superior choice. They're extremely powerful weapons that go way, way beyond any other weapon an elf can use.

There's also the argument that there are, to keep using the elf example, other elven deities. Angharradh's favored weapon is a spear. Deep Sashelas's is a trident. Fenmarel Mestarine's is a dagger. Angharradh's followers in particular, being the #2 Seldarine, are really left in the lurch there.

[JubJub]

I think what Kalopsia said is right. It was probably a push to get races to use weapons they were known for over the most powerful weapons. FInding a drow who actually used a crossbow was nearly impossible, you never saw many elves who used a longsword. Moonblades are surperior in certain areas, but I still know some who prefer a blade of the elements over a moonnblade or still feel wepaons with a better crit range and such are better.

[Aodh Lazuli]

If the goal was to balance races, then why can we use them on other races with a small investment of extra umd? (31 ranks, rather than 16 ranks)

Why are some so easy to produce, they're cheaper than masterly damask (lookin' at you, dwarf rune axe - unless the drop rate for dwarven incantations has been dramatically reduced), and more within 5% reach - while others require multiple rare loot items?

Why are two of these weapons completely unobtainable to all other races, breaking the pattern entirely on a race which probably doesn't need the exclusive help?

[Nitro]

Because they weren't made to be equal, nor to balance races but instead to be a little in-universe nod to the fact that different races are stereotypically better at making/using specific kinds of weapons.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Because they weren't made to be equal, nor to balance races but instead to be a little in-universe nod to the fact that different races are stereotypically better at making/using specific kinds of weapons.

I probably should have italicized and bolded the word "was".