Remove the 5% chance of dying in subdual

[Cortex]

I think this feature has been around long enough to show that it can be used properly without the nonsensical and silly need of a 5% of killing who you're trying to subdual, which is just immensely counter intuitive.

[Royal Blood]

I think a fair number of people just want subdue to be the default. That ends the weird RP narrative of people constantly dying and raising to some extent. There's plenty of times I want to fight someone and not -kill them- but I won't tank my AB to use a sub-optimal weapon. Then like once they are 'subdued' instead of corpse bashing as we have it now, you can 'execute' them for the actual kill if death is the desire.

[Yma23]

I think a fair number of people just want subdue to be the default. That ends the weird RP narrative of people constantly dying and raising to some extent. There's plenty of times I want to fight someone and not -kill them- but I won't tank my AB to use a sub-optimal weapon. Then like once they are 'subdued' instead of corpse bashing as we have it now, you can 'execute' them for the actual kill if death is the desire.

Here here! I entirely agree with this.

Death is made more meaningful if it is scarcer. The above would make it an active, concience decision not the 'default.'

The only issue with it is the PvP rules would have to be shifted to account for this, to prevent someone 'griefing' another by just beating them down over and over again. But I'm sure this is fixable.

[Nitro]

The only issue with it is the PvP rules would have to be shifted to account for this, to prevent someone 'griefing' another by just beating them down over and over again. But I'm sure this is fixable.

We already have a rule against that, it's called "Be nice". If someone is beating someone to near death over and over that's very obviously not nice.

[Royal Blood]

When you are subdued you could maybe get the option do the command

-release

That means like if you don't want to RP you can do -release which will cause you to mechanically die. Assuming such a thing could be scripted!

[Kalopsia]

The only issue with it is the PvP rules would have to be shifted to account for this, to prevent someone 'griefing' another by just beating them down over and over again. But I'm sure this is fixable.

The current system already prevents that kind of griefing from happening. :)

[Subdued] characters have -10 to all stats, except constitution, for the next 6 to 12 minutes. Afterwards, it will drop to -5 for another 6 minutes, when it will finally wear off. While the character is in this weakened state, they cannot be subdued again - they will die normally.

Source: http://wiki.arelith.com/Subdual

[CosmicOrderV]

There is another part of this I think would play well with the sort of change that's being mentioned. I find it a bit silly, even nonsensical at times, that Bob the Wizard can fireball you from several yards away, then immediately identify your race and name from that same distance, with zero investment/effort/skill. Having some sort of sub-dual mode be standard, and/or implementing some sort of search/investigate feature to examine corpses with, would help a lot just so that when youre playing a race who doesnt want to be known (and let's say you are low level grinding) a random death doesnt ruin your story before you ever came of level to see it through. Especially considering, most deaths are going to make the body hard to identify. Being chomped by an EDK? Blasted by magic? Pummeled by a monk's fists? These things are going to mar and bloody the remains such that it doesnt make sense they're immediately identifiable.

Logically inconsistent, and hampers the story? Seems very worth changing.

[Nevrus]

Dead people do leave bloodstains that can be -investigated to determine victim and killer characteristics already.

[ReverentBlade]

I think a fair number of people just want subdue to be the default. That ends the weird RP narrative of people constantly dying and raising to some extent. There's plenty of times I want to fight someone and not -kill them- but I won't tank my AB to use a sub-optimal weapon. Then like once they are 'subdued' instead of corpse bashing as we have it now, you can 'execute' them for the actual kill if death is the desire.

I'd love this. There's an element of realism to it. Most real fights end with the other guy bleeding in a useless lump on the ground, unable to fight but still breathing. Actually finishing the job is -typically- an extra, conscious step.

[O-H41]

I like the idea of subdual as a default in PvP too. But if it was the default option, I'm not sure how a Mark of Destiny would differentiate sparring from a "real" PvP beatdown.

[CosmicOrderV]

Dead people do leave bloodstains that can be -investigated to determine victim and killer characteristics already.

Point missed. Emphasis on the corpse being used to collect details, merely by seeing it on your screen, and how that shouldn't be. By making it such that subdual is the default, it would mean less corpses being dropped, and therefore less means to passively bypass disguises or determine race.

The blood stains are good, but don't help in this regard, unless they were the -only- way to determine it. As is, they're only good for people who weren't present at the moment of conflict.

[Cortex]

dont derail thanks

[CosmicOrderV]

Subject: Reasons why to remove the 5% chance of dying in subdual.

Progression: Make subdual the norm for pvp.

My post: Additional reason why that would be a good idea.

Another hot take: Just read the thread about taking heads. Lots of overlap.

[Ebonstar]

what if adding beatdown mode as well, that has zero% chance to kill, with the 5% staying on subdual and pvp have to click through three selections to do normal killing damage.

That way you can have your pvp that noone dies, then could die, and will die

[Durvayas]

what if adding beatdown mode as well, that has zero% chance to kill, with the 5% staying on subdual and pvp have to click through three selections to do normal killing damage.

That way you can have your pvp that noone dies, then could die, and will die

Its an unnescessary step for a very binary decision.

You either want to kill them...
...Or you dont.

You don't want to maybe kill them.

Right now, subdual frankly sucks, and it sucks hard.

• You take a penalty on your AB unless you've invested in an utterly worthless feat. *Hint: Nobody gimps their character build to deal with a bad system.*
• Its only viable if you use specific weapons (which, if you aren't already using a subdual weapon as your main weapon you have focuses in, effectively STACKS your AB penalty)
• Target very often dies anyways, completely defeating the purpose.

[xanrael]

Would honestly like to see the 5% death chance and the -4 to hit removed as well. Dirty Fighting could allow one to use the mode with other weapons at no penalty (hit with the pommel or flat of the blade).

I get there is a a whole "realism" thing with it, but I find the alternative of a quick raise devaluing death even more.

[Sockss]

It'd be nice to have proper subdual.

In that anyone can do it, regardless of weapon type and it doesn't give you ab penalties.

As pointed out there are safeguards against using it for griefing. (Unlike the arenas might I add which you can grief in, or... actual death, you just don't see it done by anyone that isn't banned)

Would I use current subdual if I wanted that roleplay? No. What would be the point? I'd simply kill someone and raise them.

It's a shame it's implemented the way it is.

[Richørd]

Here's another take (and basically a suggestion) on this :
Subdual should first of all be possible with all weapons. Smashing someone's head with the guard or the pommel of your sword is not something that's out of the ordinary. Sure that'd not use the weapon to it's fullest potential and be less effective than just striking someone with the blade of a sword but I'll get to that.

Should subdual merely be expanded to be doable with all weapon types (excluding crossbows and other ranged weapons of course) and not completely overhauled then the 5% chance to kill someone should still be a thing.
Why? Because when big orog slaver Brogg Smashskullsalot strikes poor, whimpy beta-male 8 CON elf wizard Angus Flameyfingers over the head with the pommel of his greatsword I'd find it rather likely that the orog accidentally cracks the poor elf's skull open instead of merely knocking him out.
Sure we could leave this in the hands of player agency and let everyone decide on their own when they "accidentally" kill someone but this is just a devil's advocate sort of thing.

And the big minus to AB should not be a thing for any blunt weapon. You are going to hit someone either way. You merely deciding to just knock someone's knees away so they fall to the ground, unable to do much instead of aiming for their head is a rather simple choice in martial combat situations. (sure the argument could be made that what I'm refering to is just using the "Knockdown" feat but that's going a bit into minute details, people. The person getting "knocked down" is already in a lot of pain and has suffered tons of bruises and broken bones aka. fallen to 0 HP)

EDIT : About what's written in my post before this edit. I just realized that this'd be another small but potent push for making blunt weapons more preferable for specific builds and RPs. Would take some of the mainstream attention away from all the high critrange slashing weapons.

An even better system would probably be what's already been suggested. Don't have players just be dead upon reaching 0 HP. Make them instead enter a "knocked out" state where they can be messed with. This'd include things like picking their pockets to take the gold they had with them, get roped up or any other things the developers would come up with. The HP of that player could then reach a specific amount of -HP before they actually die etc. etc.
I think you can all imagine tons of wonderfull things for such a system. It'd in the end just be up to the server owners if they'd want to change how "loosing" on Arelith works.

[Mr_Rieper]

Had an idea when discussing this with people in Discord.

Using non-lethal weapons for subdual on a server where your chosen weapon is everything is just not going to work. In RL, people don't often die instantly unless they were stabbed through the skull, and they remain conscious for a while in critical condition before succumbing to their wounds. We have a system like this on Arelith already. It's just hardly seen because at higher levels, you're taking much harder hits which will put you past -10 HP and therefore instant death.

So my take on this is, just have subdual be the default in PvP. When fighting in PvP, characters are not instantly killed. Instead they drop to critical condition and fall to the ground at -1 HP and begin bleeding out. They can still talk and emote. To prevent abuse, it should be changed that even if they are healed and stabilized, they still need some sort of check once per round before they are able to get up again. Maybe a difficult fort save that they get an automatic 20 (and thus pass) if the combat has ended. When characters are downed, anything attacking them stops attacking them, even players. Players are allowed to manually initiate the attack once more to coup-de-grace them on the ground, if they really want the person dead. NPCs that are known to be more vicious or cruel will also continue attacking the downed character and try to kill them.

I'm not sure if spells should still kill outright. It would make sense but at the same time, lethal spell damage is still a massive part of PvP on the server. Maybe AoE spells like fireball or hellball will put characters into critical condition, but high power single target spells like Greater Ruin will kill outright.

Viola. Fights are still tense, meaningful, less death all around and grouping is encouraged to prevent deaths from happening. People can RP being seriously wounded in a fight instead of being brought back from the dead. And we finally make better use of the Downed state that already exists but everybody forgets about after level 12.

[Subutai]

I like subdual being the default for PvP for more than just convenience. One of the issues with DnD in general is that there's no concept of energy, ability to fight, etc. A level 1 wizard can die from getting bit by a mouse, while a level 30 fighter can get stabbed 34 times and just shrug it off.

This is pretty immersion-breaking in more ways that one, but in the case of PvP, it means that the only thing that stops someone from fighting you is if you literally hack them apart until they're a bloody, mangled corpse on the ground. The idea that your character just outfought them, and left them unable to fight back, or with the knowledge that if they did fight back, they couldn't possibly win at this point, doesn't really exist. Making PvP subdual could rectify this, to some degree. Instead of stabbing them to death to beat them, they might simply be defeated and unable to fight on. There's no need to kill them, because they can't keep fighting. They're defeated, even though they're still alive.

To go one step further, I'm reminded of how the old D20 Star Wars PnP game handled it. Instead of characters gaining HP every level, they would gain Vitality Points, which were effectively the same thing as HP except that it specifically referred to a character's ability to dodge blaster shots, block lightsaber swings, that otherwise would have hit them. Essentially, they were narrow misses. Once a character ran out of VP, they would start losing HP, which was equivalent to a character's Constitution score.

While this system obviously can't be used exactly on Arelith, I still like the concept of it. A person who is actually badly injured wouldn't be able to fight well, at all, in most cases. They'd be bleeding in the ground. But a character who's struggling at the end of a fight still might be.

Maybe at 1 HP, all additional damage could be removed, attacks ended, and the character knocked prone? Then they'd be stuck that way until killed with another attack (which could just drop them below 0 and they'd stabilize or bleed out as normal), healed, or after a certain number of rounds. Essentially, the same thing that happens now from 0 to -10 HP, but without the immediate need for stabilization, and maybe a different animation, to lend to the RP of them not being actually dead and bleeding out, just defeated.

[Mr_Rieper]

Maybe at 1 HP, all additional damage could be removed, attacks ended, and the character knocked prone? Then they'd be stuck that way until killed with another attack (which could just drop them below 0 and they'd stabilize or bleed out as normal), healed, or after a certain number of rounds. Essentially, the same thing that happens now from 0 to -10 HP, but without the immediate need for stabilization, and maybe a different animation, to lend to the RP of them not being actually dead and bleeding out, just defeated.

Bear in mind, it takes quite a while to go from -1 HP to -10 HP and die. Ample time to speak a line or two of RP, and stabilise or finish them off.

It's just a system that stops seeing any use in later levels because the moment enemies are able to deal more than 10 damage to you in a single hit is the moment that they can just kill you outright. I'm aware this is how it works in 3rd edition, but there's no DM at the table to intervene or fluff rolls, and it is real time combat with a limited degree of freedom over what your character may do when attempting to subdue somebody. In tabletop, there's plenty of time to tell the DM that your next swing will be using the flat of the blade, or attempting to knock the wind out of them with a pommel strike. On Arelith, you don't have that degree of control or time to make those sorts of decisions.

It's absolutely possible to prevent outright death on Arelith. We have the arenas that do this automatically, except they skip the bleeding out part and allow you to get up after a moment. Just use the same system, except have it trigger the critical condition and begin the countdown to bleeding out. If they are healed or stabilised with a kit, don't allow them to get up immediately. This prevents from abuse in PvP, and makes it a bad idea to try to attend to your comrade mid PvP when you've got somebody swinging at you.

If you're bleeding out and want to opt-out of living, you can use a console command and do that. This can even be used in PvE when a solo trip goes awry and you're repeatedly being downed by enemies who won't finish you off, but you keep stabilising. If it's being abused and you don't want to RP with the ones who defeated you, just die. Easy.

[Richørd]

As a former halberd WM player I'd just like to add this :
Such a HP pool that can go into the minus-values should definitely scale a bit with your character's level and base CON modifier.

I once critted another player for over 300 damage with that halberd. That poor drow would've never had a real chance of being subdued by that if that -10 HP pool was already set in place back then, even if I tried.

[Subutai]

I think stopping damage at 0 HP is the key thing here. 9 times out of 10, you'll go from above 0 HP to well below -10 HP. As much as I like my idea of dropping the character prone instead of lying, just adjusting it to limit damage that takes a character from above 0 HP to 0 HP, along with something that would prevent them from just hopping back into battle when they get healed with a kit a second later would do the most here.

[Mr_Rieper]

Characters that have been downed should also immediately be stripped of all magical wards, as if they had died. Maybe an exception can be made for a constitution buff. Or maybe that's a good way to avoid being taken alive. Possibly a short term Spell Failure penalty.

Regardless, just wanted to stress the point, they should not be able to get back up right away and keep fighting. Being god-saved also removes all of your buffs and encourages you to either end the fight or flee. This should be no different. Otherwise I can see some solid cheese taking place in PvP.

[Irongron]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=22157&p=194945#p194945