Greyport Accessibility

[The Greater Good]

Even if they hadn't, imagine telling the people who run the server what the areas they made are supposed to be.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Skullport is basically Underdark Waterdeep. Like this is the very first thing the sourcebook says about it:

[Scurvy Cur]

Wasn't Skullport actually a human city, built by mages and run by pirates, just one that happened to be in the Underdark and did lots of trade with the underdark races? Surely this is no more the model we want for Andunor than Menzo.

To all appearances, it surely is the model we want. The admin team made a conscious decision to move away from menzo and towards skullport, as far as theme goes for the main UD town. There has been a consistent and conscious choice to make Arelith's UD something other than "monsters only", presumably in the belief that it makes for a better setting. At the very least, it makes for a more flexible one. And anything that allows the narrative atmosphere of the UD to flex away from the stifling and at-times OOCly hostile environment that every drow-centric underdark we've ever had on this server eventually winds up being is healthy.

[Irongron]

I can only keep repeating myself here. I've never said the Underdark should be friendly or welcoming to the outcast races (Humans and half-orcs), only that these areas are not, nor will ever be, restricted only to players of monster races (who themselves have zero to little common cause)

Skullport is a decent example, sure, but in almost every Underdark city there is a small amount of unenslaved surfacers, living there, even in Menzoberranzan (in fact EVERY drow city). So if you want to be critical of outcast races being found in Upperdark cities, please don't do so based upon the entirely false argument that it isn't canonical, because if anywhere on Arelith's UD ever had that wrong it was Udos Dro'Xun.

Here's a few examples:

Drik Hargunen (large city): Magical; AL LE; 40,000 gp limit; Assets 48,694,000 gp; Population 16,555 free; Isolated (duergar 90%, derro 6%, human 2%, rock gnome 1%, svirfneblin 1%); 7,792 slaves (goblin 59%, orc 23%, grimlock 15%, ogre 3%).

Fraaszummdin (large town): Conventional; AL N; 3,000 gp limit; Assets 462,300 gp; Population 1,124 free; isolated (duergar 96%, human 2%, half-orc 1%, hobgoblin 1%); 1,958 slaves (hobgoblin 49%, orc 39%, half-orc 9%, human 2%, ogre 1%).

Menzoberranzan (metropolis): Magical; AL CE; 100,000 gp limit; Assets 159,495,000 gp; Population 11,439 free; Isolated (drow 98%, human 1%; ogre 1%); 20,460 slaves (goblin 17%, grimlock 17%, kobold 15'%, orc 13%, quaggoth 9%, bugbear 7%, human 7%, ogre 4%, svirfneblin 4%, minotaur 3%, troll 2%, gloaming 1%, tiefling 1%).

Sahamath (metropolis): Magical; AL NE; 100,000 gp limit; Assets 127,160,000 gp; Population 12,047 free; Isolated (drow 98%, human 1%, deep Imaskari 1%); 13,385 slaves (goblin 39%, grimlock 19%, orc 12%; ogre 10%, minotaur 9%, human 6%, outsider 5%).

Undrek'Thoz (metropolis): Magical; AL CE; 100,000 gp limit; Assets 302,015,000 gp; Population 20,748 free; Isolated (drow 94%, human 2%, derro 1%, illithid 1%, kuo-toa 1%, tiefling 1%); 39,655 slaves (orc 39%, halfling 29%, human 19%, goblin 5%, hobgoblin 4%, shield dwarf 2%, ogre 1%).

Ched Nasad Free Population: Drow 97.7%, Human 1%, Orc 1%

If one actually takes the time to read about the Underdark setting,one will see that the player races that can be selected are decidedly accurate (with the possible exception not of humans and half-orcs, but of goblins, kobolds and gnolls)

So would ordinary 'surfacers' happily wander down into Underdark for a spot of lunch with their monster friends? No, nobody has ever said that is the case. Andunor is cruel, slavery is commonplace, and those that do dwell there have selected the outcast background, while those that visit are generally adventurers expecting trouble.

What it isn't, however, is an Udos like private playground for drow where every non-UD player should be driven away or PvPed.

And I repeat - of course the reverse is not true in the surface cities. There are no drow/monster populations in most of the civilised cities of Faerun, precisely because they are so dangerous and reviled (The very same reason the Underdark is a dangerous location for any surfacer wishing to visit there). Every time I have to make the point that humans and half-orcs can visit Andunor, I'm met with the answer 'That's not fair! Why can't we visit Cordor?!' - again - its not about being fair...it is very nature of the setting and one that should be firmly understood by anyone choosing to play a monster race.

I am extremely proud of what Andunor is, and it is probably my favourite location on the module. The background here is that I managed to persuade the previous team to allow to me make it as a 'last roll of the dice' for Arelith's Underdark, which had fallen to single digit player numbers and was otherwise going to removed entirely as a playable option. So if it were not for Andunor, you would NOT be able to even play your monster race/drow on Arelith - the very reason that is even possible is the same one being complained about by those that want to return to the previous iteration of Arelith's Underdark - now that's irony.

[Shadowy Reality]

Can confirm, in old UD Grond I very often was the single person playing at certain times. Drow were very much separated from anyone else, only sometimes making incursions on Grond.

While Pit Town was an attempt at fixing the issue (by bundling everyone together, like Andunor did!) it failed miserably. Out of the 3 UD iterations Pit Town is the one I really really disliked, there was just no room to grow, and the no-pvp zone was just terrible.

Andunor is amazing, it is incredibly active, the dual districts (and now trio) add a very interesting dynamics and power struggle within the city. As others have mentioned, Andunor may seem 'friendly' at first, but you are mistaken. If your surface character wanders often it will catch up with him. The only thing that is off in Andunor canon-wise are the ratio of races.

Outcasts may be slightly too numerous at certain times. I have absolutely no issue with outcasts, I think they have great RP to them. I would just be wary they do not become so numerous the UD natives lose their voice.

[Ebonstar]

I think the only reason you have so many human outcasts in Andunor is because of mechanics. Make taking the outcast background remove the two major gifts would even this out a touch, and maybe one quarter of the human population would remain. And that would make it fall in line with the 1 or 2% of the UD canon cities listed.

The skull port vibe is strong for Andunor and now Greyport.

Disagree. It's also terribly non-canon ...........with hardly any effort.

This whole snipped post is imho reprehensible, that A/ you actually had to gall to tell the creative lead basically that his work is worthless, and maybe your hiatus wasnt long enough.

I first came to Arelith to play in a playable Underdark, and yes it has gone through any changes since then. I played in Udos Dro'Xun, played in Pit Town, and have played in Andunor.

No its not all canon, but Arelith itself isnt all canon save for our pantheons. You truly amazed me with such poor choices of your wording and tantrum, and I shall leave it at that.

Greyport will take a bit of time to evolve, of which we all can help by having patience, and letting RP dictate the evolution. All the good suggestions of minor tweaks will be put in a list and dealt with , just like all major updates.

[Irongron]

Can confirm, in old UD Grond I very often was the single person playing at certain times. Drow were very much separated from anyone else, only sometimes making incursions on Grond.

While Pit Town was an attempt at fixing the issue (by bundling everyone together, like Andunor did!) it failed miserably. Out of the 3 UD iterations Pit Town is the one I really really disliked, there was just no room to grow, and the no-pvp zone was just terrible.

Andunor is amazing, it is incredibly active, the dual districts (and now trio) add a very interesting dynamics and power struggle within the city. As others have mentioned, Andunor may seem 'friendly' at first, but you are mistaken. If your surface character wanders often it will catch up with him. The only thing that is off in Andunor canon-wise are the ratio of races.

Outcasts may be slightly too numerous at certain times. I have absolutely no issue with outcasts, I think they have great RP to them. I would just be wary they do not become so numerous the UD natives lose their voice.

Pretty much agree with the entirity of this post, save for one pedantic point - there were 4, not 3 iterations of the Underdark in Arelith's history.

The first of these was the pre-Urblexis Underdark, where drow players, alone, were the sole occupants, and is also the 'origin' of the 'Underdark should belong to the drow' attitude that despite having no grounding in FR Canon has endured to this day. Everything we see being written today about the outcast races 'spoiling' the setting was being pushed a decade ago when the other monster races were first introduced.

Though I should add, that despite this, it was a wonderful time for in the eyes of many players, and well deserving of that nostalgia factor. The RP was exceptional, as was the sense of community enjoyed by those first RP pioneers. They brought an attention to detail and immersion factor in realizing drow society that left many of us gasping in astonishment. Even today, where I personally think the general standard of RP across the community is greatly improved from those early years, I rarely see anything like the commitment shown by those players, and I understand why many reacted with obvious concern that the spell would be broken by the addition of other races.

Less a city, and more a guildhouse faction akin to the current Temple of Bane, the early days of Udos are the foundation from which the entire of Arelith's UD setting sprang from. It is well deserving of praise.

[TimeAdept]

My favorite part of old Udos was the thing where everyone forgets early old Udos was stated to be reliant on the surface for trade and if you brought down food and water the NPCs treated you just fine for the reset, and decided 3 novels should be the basis for 1/2 the server.

"old Udos" was never "Drow Only". That came way later.

[Cerk Evermoore]

the two major gifts would even this out a touch, and maybe one quarter of the human population would remain. And that would make it fall in line with the 1 or 2% of the UD canon cities listed.

The skull port vibe is strong for Andunor and now Greyport.

Really feels like monster races lacking those two gifts is having some serious negative effects on UD. Some races only have 1 or 2 "viable" class options. As much as I would hate to say it, the first thing I hear when I talk about making something like a goblin fighter or a ogre bard is, "that's not viable." and I feel the greatest bonus of the gift system is how it opens up the ability to play other classes.

[Ork]

I think the only reason you have so many human outcasts in Andunor is because of mechanics. Make taking the outcast background remove the two major gifts would even this out a touch, and maybe one quarter of the human population would remain. And that would make it fall in line with the 1 or 2% of the UD canon cities listed.

Disagree pretty handily with this. While humans have flexibility, orogs and duergar are superior races in many facets, especially when pursuing classes that match their talents. In addition, a drow will be a comparable dex build, sorcerer and wizard with the substitution of 32 SR for a free feat. Most players would want the SR.

Humans are fine mechanically and the UD player races are fine mechanically. No one wants to play an orog or duergar for reasons besides mechanics.

[The Greater Good]

If humans take up such an unacceptably large portion of the UD population, in the minds of certain, let's say career 'monster' (drow included) players, there's a question I've always wanted to ask:

What do you think is going to happen to the UD population without them? Be completely honest with yourself.
Here's a hint, even: the players aren't going to magically be convinced to roll a duergar

[magistrasa]

What have you people done to my beautiful thread...

Anyways, I think the persuade check should be removed from dialogue with the ship captains, or at the very least the option to sail should always be available and maybe there's a high tax on travel unless you make that persuasion roll - like how Ecrivendi charges a few thousand coins to take you to [FOIG]. Because all I've seen happening is people without a single point of persuasion spam the NPC dialogue until they roll a 20, effectively badgering the NPC until they give up.

Admittedly I don't know if this changed recently, since last time I tried going somewhere with the half-orc guy, I spammed the dialogue for like three minutes before someone just conjured me there - but if it hasn't changed and I was just hilariously unlucky at the time, I think it'd be a nice thing to look at for the sake of accessibility.

[Ork]

What do you think is going to happen to the UD population without them?

To these players you won't really find a satisfying answer. They would be more than content to have their own, exclusive clubhouse.

[NauVaseline]

I honestly find Drow to be mechanically whack now.

[Berried]

...........................................

Anyway, you're right, the port district has never seen much traffic despite being, in my opinion, one of the most thematically compelling areas in the game. I don't think that's because it's difficult to get to, as the gondolas are extremely convenient, it's just less obvious. It's not a place new players might accidentally stumble into while wandering around.

But now, Greyport has so much storytelling potential that I'm not worried about its obviousness at all. The most obscure locations will still see traffic if there's something worthwhile to be found there, and I mean, this is an Underdark port district we're talking about. Andunor's shrouded shores, the faerzress tainted waters that lie beyond, and its alien inhabitants. Also: Gracklstugh.

I would worry less about whatever mechanical updates should theoretically be applied to the area, and focus on planning some engaging rp hooks for the district.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

It took me a while to realise that the port and the dockyard were differant areas. A portal there, like in Treadstone would be nice.