IC Stories Forum Feedback

[Dreams]

I'm sure many people love that there is a place to share stories. Often information is given away in this part of the forum that should not be public. It is not just a matter of a player choosing to give away their own secrets, but impacts greatly upon other players too.

My feedback is that I think there should be more oversight into what goes into that forum, or a clearer guideline about what is acceptable there or not.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

IC Stories should not mention, be reflective of, comment on, or respond to anything in-game unless it is done so in a vague or ambiguous manner.

I think if anything crosses that line it should be taken down.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

Opposite side of the fence, chiming in!

I think it's really cool to see something one of my characters has done reflected in someone else's story. It's a neat way to see it from a different perspective, and it'd be a real shame to stifle that creativity. If someone wants to write a story that features something another player's character in a significant way than a PM to the effect of 'Hey, is it cool if I..?' is probably due - and that player would be within their rights to fling a PM back and go 'Hey, I'd rather this bit of information not be on the forums.' I'd like to hope we're all mature enough to talk to each other.

If people are metagaming using the information in an IC story; then by all means fling a report to the team. But it seems to me an awful shame to stop people telling stories in a storytelling community, out of fear of what a minority might do with the information in them.

[Marsi]

Absolutely agree. I've observed in the past year or two a huge uptick in IC "journals" that are used as a platform to take impotent, unassailable digs at opponent PC's.

It's harmful because it can indirectly affect the perception and standing of the subject of the journal slander, and there's nothing to be done about it IG.

Yes, it can be reported and it's usually dealt with, but it's like a game of whack-a-mole. I've seen first-hand the frustration it can cause. There ought to be a blanket ruling and a guideline as proposed in the OP.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of journals in the IC story section in general. I find even the most innocent ones inevitably betray intel. Some are more a stream or conciousness that are less about the events themselves and more how the character feels internally, but these are the exception. A better approach imo is to write that journal IC, in an actual notebook, one that can be shared or spied upon.

[TimeAdept]

post nothing

my secrets die with me

[Durvayas]

I've run into this problem in the past.

On the one hand, I've found that if you write about things currently going on, you absolutely will out your own PC and allies if you are doing any kind of long-game intrigue. I had to stop writing Sinithra's story because what she was doing was so long game it was impossible to mention what was going on currently without announcing what her end goal was, and I couldn't trust the other side not to metagame that information and didn't want it to spoil the plot.

On the other hand, I've found great enjoyment about writing about events that have already passed long ago from my PC's perspective with Rauvlin. The timeline of her story thread is intentionally about a year real time behind from current goings on, and I generally ask people for feedback if I'm about to include a critical moment of their PC's existance in my story because I want to do my due diligence and do their PC's justice. Its not hard to avoid giving away critical information, but there is also no reason to needlessly shield the audience from information about PCs that have been rolled or events that happened so long ago most of the PCs involved are gone.

At the end of the day, I think the IC stories forum should be left alone. If people are going to metagame, they're likely going to harvest the information through the grapevine or discord, rather than this obscure corner of the forums. Stifling the creativity of the people who use this section of the forums is not going to change that one iota. I am firmly in Drowble Oh Seven's camp.

[The GrumpyCat]

Honestly I think this could be dealt with in a case by case basis.

Yes I agree that IC stories shouldn't get too explicit into IG events. Definatly. But as Durvyas says, it can also be interesting to read about events/people from another perspective.

So how about this.

IF you feel someone is giving out sensitive information in an IC story about your event/character, drop them a PM saying 'hay, can you edit this out please? I'm worried about metagaming.'

If they refuse, or if you don't want to talk to them for any reason, bring it to us and we can deal with it.

I can also update the announcement on the forum section to ask people to please be wary of that too.

Seems fair?

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

As long as journal entires of IC stores are not used for "forum pvp" against other characters, and dont provide a detail by detail play by play of stuff happening IG, I think they are only a positive thing. I have full faith in the dm team being able to take care of violating posts appropriately when they pop up.

Edit: Also, as per GrumpyCats suggestion, I have done that very thing in the past, and both players I asked to edit something out I felt spoilerish were completely fine with it, and apologized.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Honestly I think this could be dealt with in a case by case basis.

Yes I agree that IC stories shouldn't get too explicit into IG events. Definatly. But as Durvyas says, it can also be interesting to read about events/people from another perspective.

I will challenge this perspective and ask:

Why can't this be done in-game?

I dislike that the onus has to be on the individual being mentioned in someone else's literary ego trip. I think that's fundamentally wrong and runs contrarian to the Arelithian philosophy that you don't have to visit the forums to play the game.

If there's unanimous agreement that there is a risk of metagaming, are we saying that people need to be scouring the IC forums to make sure their character's name doesn't show up?

I don't think that's fair or proper.

[Xerah]

Honestly I think this could be dealt with in a case by case basis.

Yes I agree that IC stories shouldn't get too explicit into IG events. Definatly. But as Durvyas says, it can also be interesting to read about events/people from another perspective.

I will challenge this perspective and ask:

Why can't this be done in-game?

Because different people have different ways to enjoy the game. Arelith is so terrified of accidental metagaming, far more so than anywhere else I've ever seen.

I do agree that they shouldn't be used for low-key digs at people in game roleplays, but that's more of not being a chill dude.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Honestly I think this could be dealt with in a case by case basis.

Yes I agree that IC stories shouldn't get too explicit into IG events. Definatly. But as Durvyas says, it can also be interesting to read about events/people from another perspective.

I will challenge this perspective and ask:

Why can't this be done in-game?

Because different people have different ways to enjoy the game. Arelith is so terrified of accidental metagaming, far more so than anywhere else I've ever seen.

I do agree that they shouldn't be used for low-key digs at people in game roleplays, but that's more of not being a chill dude.

I am firmly in the camp that so long as people are vague enough that only people who already know IC will recognize the reference, what someone writes in their corner of the shared narrative sandbox should be up to them.

There is this rampant mentality that we must all keep "our" secrets from each other, like we're each others' enemies. It's an entirely unpleasant approach that does little more than stifle creativity. Some people want to share the narrative of their character's perspective of an event- they don't just want to share it with a few select people that might find a book that gets added to a loot table a couple of years down the road, they want anyone that is interested enough in their writing to warrant a click on their topic in the subforum to be able to see it and maybe hopefully be entertained by it.

Writing excerpts from my characters' lives is an (infrequently practiced) hobby of mine - if I want to write a recounting of the memory of the Battle of Wharftown, for example, or Abazurr's seige on Wharftown, from their perspective - why shouldn't I be able to write about anything that was personally relevant to my character during such events?

I should. No matter what it's about or who it's about, if the interaction happened with my character, I should be able to write about it. That right is part of a shared narrative, and I find the idea of telling someone they can't write about something they experienced because "Muh Secrets" to be unforgivably selfish. Keep your secrets a secret if you don't want anyone to find out.

All other courtesies of concealing character shattering information should fall under the Be Nice rule.

[Marsi]

I think there's a big difference between the recounting of major public, or even personal, events long after the fact, and quotidian updates that blithely expose other characters and don't appear to serve any creative purpose other than to allow the author to express their character in a space where there can be no retaliation.

[Hinapples]

I should. No matter what it's about or who it's about, if the interaction happened with my character, I should be able to write about it. That right is part of a shared narrative, and I find the idea of telling someone they can't write about something they experienced because "Muh Secrets" to be unforgivably selfish. Keep your secrets a secret if you don't want anyone to find out.

I've experienced this first-hand. I won't even join Arelith related discords now because the moment I mention that I PVP'd someone or that I saw someone hanging out with someone else I get called all sorts of despicable things and basically cyber bullied over it until I leave the channel. Mainly by people who want to play "secretly good" or "secretly evil" characters. It's absurd, really. I never metagame, and these same people that bullied me have actually metagamed against my characters because I accidentally shared their precious "secrets" OOC which half the island already knew about IC anyways. I shouldn't be punished just because other people can't separate IC and OOC. If I accidentally let something slip OOC and other people metagame over it that's on them. Bullying other players because they refuse to gatekeep information about what you do IC is ridiculous and definitely not nice.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I will challenge this perspective and ask:

Why can't this be done in-game?

Because different people have different ways to enjoy the game. Arelith is so terrified of accidental metagaming, far more so than anywhere else I've ever seen.

I do agree that they shouldn't be used for low-key digs at people in game roleplays, but that's more of not being a chill dude.

I am firmly in the camp that so long as people are vague enough that only people who already know IC will recognize the reference, what someone writes in their corner of the shared narrative sandbox should be up to them.

There is this rampant mentality that we must all keep "our" secrets from each other, like we're each others' enemies. It's an entirely unpleasant approach that does little more than stifle creativity. Some people want to share the narrative of their character's perspective of an event- they don't just want to share it with a few select people that might find a book that gets added to a loot table a couple of years down the road, they want anyone that is interested enough in their writing to warrant a click on their topic in the subforum to be able to see it and maybe hopefully be entertained by it.

Writing excerpts from my characters' lives is an (infrequently practiced) hobby of mine - if I want to write a recounting of the memory of the Battle of Wharftown, for example, or Abazurr's seige on Wharftown, from their perspective - why shouldn't I be able to write about anything that was personally relevant to my character during such events?

I should. No matter what it's about or who it's about, if the interaction happened with my character, I should be able to write about it. That right is part of a shared narrative, and I find the idea of telling someone they can't write about something they experienced because "Muh Secrets" to be unforgivably selfish. Keep your secrets a secret if you don't want anyone to find out.

All other courtesies of concealing character shattering information should fall under the Be Nice rule.

Do correct me, Aerlyn, but there seems to be an underlying assumption here that if our characters interact, because it's a "shared narrative", you then have the ability to (without my consent or knowledge, according to the Rules) write about our characters' interaction on the forums.

I don't think I'm talking about a principle of secrecy or privacy, I'm talking about a principle of keep my characters out of an environment where my agency is stripped entirely. Where it's not even a game but more like a blogpost.

[Sea Shanties]

I trust a good amount of players not to metagame if they have knowledge of someone's secret.

I think there's a case to be made that even the best roleplayers are going to act a little differently if they have knowledge that their character shouldn't (especially if it will negatively affect them) than if they are oblivious. Even if it is to overcompensate by being over-generous and consciously letting the person get one over on their character.

I think just a little bit of the innocence and trust is lost and things can feel forced when this happens-- and that's when it's done properly. I think it can also cause people to avoid a character so they don't have to deal with the choice of metagaming or not and let's be honest, some less than stellar players are going to use that info to their advantage.

If I had the choice I'd rather sensitive information not be exposed, to keep IG stuff IG and to keep interactions as natural and free of prior knowledge and other baggage as possible. Of course it's going to happen anyway since people play alts and gossip etc etc but I would hope anyone writing a story on the forum would have some discretion. At the very least, if in doubt don't refer to them by name, give them a nickname or something.

[Hinapples]

If someone sees your secretly evil character walking around wearing 63 black with demons or undead in tow they are probably going to post it on every message board and pay every town crier to broadcast it for the next 48 rl hours anyways. Policing what other players are allowed to talk about OOC so you can "win" IC is just a very crappy way to treat other players.

[xanrael]

To me I see:

Perfectly fine:
"After Jane won the election she thought back to her childhood. To her hometown that had a greedy and corrupt mayor. Even as a child wanting to take charge and put things right. Now, 20 years later, she would have a chance to do just that here."

Revealing knowledge people shouldn't have:
"Tom smiled as he counted his coins, he had received a bonus for assassinating his target on the deck of the Penny Rose, the same place his client's brother had been killed a month prior by the target."

Odds are the target and several others know exactly who hired Tom now. Tom's player is among those at fault for metagaming.

Over the top:
"Tom laughed thinking about how the target squealed like stuck pig as he was stabbed over and over."

I think IC stories as a concept are fine, but Arelith is a Persistent World with an RP focus first and thus that experience should be the priority. The IC stories are by design separate from the "shared sandbox". In the example above with Tom, the target Bill cannot suddenly edit Tom's post with: "Tom's memory conveniently glossed over the 7 other people stabbing the target and the fact that Tom still almost died." It would be frowned upon if he started posting in Tom's thread as well. The story only has one player with any agency.

[Hinapples]

Except if Tom wants he can pay every town crier on the server to broadcast the exact same story to everyone IC. He can even go over the top and that's fine. But if he mentions it on the forums or in discord in a joking manner that is in no way intended to be malicious or encourage metagaming or targeting the other player he gets lambasted with insults. Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Shadowy Reality]

I think it should be policed by very lightly. There are only very few things that can be harmful, such as outing someone as a Rakshasa for example.

People are worried these journals could be used to metagame current plots. But has anyone wondered that these IC journals can be also used to mislead people about current plots likewise?

I can write whatever I want in my forum/ic journal. It is my character's take, it may be partially wrong, totally wrong, it may actually be all lies that my character tells herself, or maybe the character is simply delusional. It could be written that the character went right, when in fact it went left. You assume that what is written is the truth at your own risk.

[Marsi]

Except if Tom wants he can pay every town crier on the server to broadcast the exact same story to everyone IC. He can even go over the top and that's fine.

Except the town crier exists in-game and there is a measure of interactibility for those involved. Its unlikely but entirely possible to hunt down slanderers and whistleblowers using -investigate, roleplay and a good deal of luck.

I think the broader issue here isn't just metagaming but taking creative licence with other people's characters. Frankly, I wouldn't want my character to be the subject of someone's forum post without my permission.

[Hinapples]

Except if Tom wants he can pay every town crier on the server to broadcast the exact same story to everyone IC. He can even go over the top and that's fine.

Except the town crier exists in-game and there is a measure of interactibility for those involved. Its unlikely but entirely possible to hunt down slanderers and whistleblowers using -investigate, roleplay and a good deal of luck.

I think the broader issue here isn't just metagaming but taking creative licence with other people's characters. Frankly, I wouldn't want my character to be the subject of someone's forum post without my permission.

I think that for the most part metagaming is a boogeyman that doesn't really exist. If your character wants to ruin another character's reputation they have tools IG to do that. Accusing and bullying people for an off-hand remark in discord or a post on the IC Stories section of the forums is poor gamesmanship. If you want your character to have secrets IC, you need to keep them IC. If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to do that and you're making it obvious that your "secret alignment" character isn't actually playing for the team they are on you should expect to get called out for it. People don't want to put forth that effort though and so they are glad to blame other players for their own shortcomings. The vast majority of players are not even settlement or faction leaders, or anyone with any substantial amount of power. Even if Tom says that Jim is walking around with zombies in a discord channel with 30 players in it, most of those 30 players won't care or will have enough sense to separate IC from OOC. The rest of the 2000+ players won't even know. If one player does use that information to metagame then that is on that player, not on Tom.

[Subutai]

On the topic of metagaming, I've actually found (strictly in my own experience) that the people who reveal the information are actually often the ones with an advantage. People who find out OOC that your character is secretly evil, or secretly a spy, or whatever, are often so concerned about using their OOC knowledge to inform their characters' actions that they'll end up ignoring actual IC indications. This is also why I'm skeptical of stuff like the Disguised tag. If some character comes in with a normal name and starts acting fishy, my character might call them out. But if they have (Disguised) under their name, suddenly I start second guessing myself, and wonder if the suspicions are just coming from the tag, and not from the actions.

I'm not saying this is a reason to or not to restrict IC Stories thread content. It's just something I've noticed. It's not always the player revealing things about their character that opens themselves up to metagaming, or their revelations of others that opens others up to it. It can also have the opposite effect, and shield them from things IC out of other people's fear of metagaming.

[xanrael]

Even if Tom says that Jim is walking around with zombies in a discord channel with 30 players in it, most of those 30 players won't care or will have enough sense to separate IC from OOC. The rest of the 2000+ players won't even know. If one player does use that information to metagame then that is on that player, not on Tom.

Here is the thing, in the example Tom is the PC. Within the game Tom revealing stuff is an IC action for IC reasons.

On Discord, Tom's player is telling a bunch of other players about the PC Jim for OOC reasons.

[Hinapples]

Even if Tom says that Jim is walking around with zombies in a discord channel with 30 players in it, most of those 30 players won't care or will have enough sense to separate IC from OOC. The rest of the 2000+ players won't even know. If one player does use that information to metagame then that is on that player, not on Tom.

Here is the thing, in the example Tom is the PC. Within the game Tom revealing stuff is an IC action for IC reasons.

On Discord, Tom's player is telling a bunch of other players about the PC Jim for OOC reasons.

Tom revealing stuff IC to hundreds of players will have far more consequences than revealing it OOC to maybe a few dozen and it is very easy for him to do so, and justifiable. If he reveals it OOC to a few dozen players in good faith and one of them uses that information to metagame, should Tom really be blamed for what Jethro did? Come on. It's absurd. Lets stop gatekeeping information OOC and bullying players because they told an IC story on the forums or joked about something in discord.

[xanrael]

Even if Tom says that Jim is walking around with zombies in a discord channel with 30 players in it, most of those 30 players won't care or will have enough sense to separate IC from OOC. The rest of the 2000+ players won't even know. If one player does use that information to metagame then that is on that player, not on Tom.

Here is the thing, in the example Tom is the PC. Within the game Tom revealing stuff is an IC action for IC reasons.

On Discord, Tom's player is telling a bunch of other players about the PC Jim for OOC reasons.

Tom revealing stuff IC to hundreds of players will have far more consequences than revealing it OOC to maybe a few dozen and it is very easy for him to do so, and justifiable. If he reveals it OOC to a few dozen players in good faith and one of them uses that information to metagame, should Tom really be blamed for what Jethro did? Come on. It's absurd. Lets stop gatekeeping information OOC and bullying players because they told an IC story on the forums or joked about something in discord.

Because one involves RPing in Arelith and the Discord stuff involves stuff outside of Arelith. The player is not the character. A character being motivated and plotting against another character is fine. When you get players plotting against other players you're quickly leaving the spirit of the Arelith rules behind. And yeah, that can still and does happen IG, but certainly on a Discord channel you're not playing your character when you talk about another.

As far as the bullying goes, I haven't seen any of that in this thread about the IC Stories and the only major mention of it was by you relating to Discord.