Half-Elves are terrible - Can we make them better?

[Subutai]

Half-Elves really get the worst of both worlds, when it comes to being a cross between humans and elves. They lose the fantastic free feat and skill points of their human parent, and the ability bonuses of their Elf parent, leaving them with the mostly-just-useful-as-a-prerequisite-for-WM-and-SD feat, Dodge.

A lot of shiny new award races are being added every few weeks, and yet half-elf remains a very much form-over-function race. Anyone who wants the flavor of a half-elf has to sacrifice any useful benefit from race, and ends up the worse for it. Jack Oat on the BuildsNMechanics forum mentioned that removing Dodge and adding the Human Skillpoint bonuses could be decent, but that obviously isn't the be-all end-all of any discussion to be had.

So, as a point of discussion, Is there anything we can do to improve Half-Elf and make it more playable?

My own thought, as a non-build-expert:

Drop Dodge
Free feat from a restricted list (thanks to Skuurj from Discord for this one)
+1/-1 ability matching whatever Half-Elf subrace (Moon, Sun, etc.)

[Seven Sons of Sin]

My dream is that half-orcs and half-elves can one day get to pick and choose a select amount of abilities from the Human, Elf subraces and Orog/Orc race to create their own racial mechanics.

D&D and PnP has never really done the half-- races very well.

Can half-elves get unique weapons like the half-orc can?

I also think an important consideration for half-elves is their access to Myon. Maybe this isn't always a big deal, but I do like the idea of "roleplaying boons" as being an important factor that differentiates non-humans.

[Subutai]

My dream is that half-orcs and half-elves can one day get to pick and choose a select amount of abilities from the Human, Elf subraces and Orog/Orc race to create their own racial mechanics.

I like this idea. In terms of balance, it seems like it could end up a little tricky, given some people's impressive ability to squeeze a lot of impact out of seemingly tiny bonuses. But it seems like it could be done.

I also think an important consideration for half-elves is their access to Myon. Maybe this isn't always a big deal, but I do like the idea of "roleplaying boons" as being an important factor that differentiates non-humans.

This does seem important. Half-elves seem to sacrifice a lot, and I really don't know anything they gain, RP or mechanically, other than being able to say "I'm a half-elf".

[Ecthelion]

Half-elves do get Moonblades and access to Myon, no ?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

If we're talking about something to make them more mechanically desirable, I do agree they get the short end of the stick. I've always liked the pathfinder version for their racials.

Standard Racial Traits

Ability Score Modifiers: Half-elf characters gain a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Type: Half-elves are humanoid creatures with both the human and the elf subtypes.
Size: Half-elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Half-elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Half-elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Half-elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages.
Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and gain a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Low-Light Vision: Half-elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.

[Durvayas]

Half-elves do get Moonblades and access to Myon, no ?

And elvish as a free language.

Their benefits are more in the realm of roleplay opportunity and soft skills, rather than their value for powerbuilding.

They're a PC with inroads into human circles.
They're a PC with inroads into elvish circles.
They start with common and elvish both.
They can enter myon, which is a restricted settlement.
They can wield moonblades.
They can be arcane archers.

And also, they should not be common. We should not be buffing them to make them more common. The half races are anomalies on a social level demographically. I think in canon there's like one half elf per 1000 humans or something. Half orcs are far more common.

[Subutai]

Half-elves being rare is also an effect of human and elf interactions themselves being rare. On Arelith, this is very much not the case. Humans and elves interact constantly, and generally have excellent relations. I don't really see why we should discourage half-elves, while not discouraging human-elf interactions. Arelith's race ratios and relations in general are absolutely nothing like anywhere in Faerun.

I'd really rather not see races being intentionally mechanically inferior simply to keep numbers low. We already have the reward system for that. If half-elf commonality is a cause for concern, I think it would be better addressed using the current method for that than by relying on the race being mechanically inferior.

[Mr_Rieper]

Half-elves are fine. Durvayas, they are already somewhat rare. And even if they weren't, you probably wouldn't notice, because half-orcs get their own models. Half-elves do not.

The free dodge feat does mean they are a viable pick for weapon master builds, which is okay in my books.

It would be nice if we had a way to identify them visually, easily. But that isn't possible with mechanical tweaking alone. We'd need haks for that.

[Nevrus]

I think replacing the Dodge feat with +2 charisma would go a long way to making them useful for a lot of things. Bards, sorcerors, paladins, clerics, blackguards, taunt builds, intimidate builds all take advantage of this. There's also no real way to get racial charisma bonuses without rewards either, so this would give them a good niche. The lack of weaknesses complements a general lack of strengths outside of this as well - the slight racial skill bonuses don't compete with the consistent skill bonuses of humans. If they need to have a weaker stat, throw on a -1 Con from elven frailty. Not as bad as full elves, but still present.

I think this change would fill in a gap in racial selection.

[CosmicOrderV]

Made a half-elf not long ago, with the role play aspect being the main appeal. This definitely feels like their niche. Even if they got ability score bonuses, that would likely mean an increase in ecl... Which means one less gift... That you could have used for the exact same ability score increase, anyways.

I could see a very small boon for half-elves being fun, but they dont feel like they really need it. Maybe a small skill bonus or low tier feat (like Skill Focus: Persuade, or something. )

[Subutai]

Made a half-elf not long ago, with the role play aspect being the main appeal. This definitely feels like their niche. Even if they got ability score bonuses, that would likely mean an increase in ecl... Which means one less gift... That you could have used for the exact same ability score increase, anyways.

I could see a very small boon for half-elves being fun, but they dont feel like they really need it.

I don't really see why it would come with an ECL increase. Half-elves both on Arelith and in DnD in general are mechanically not good. Arelith improved them by adding Dodge, but even that doesn't really bring them up to par with the utility of any of the other races, even excluding the always-optimal-choice humans.

I don't want to see half-elves being made somehow overpowered, or having an advantage over other races. I'd just like to see half-elves being turned into a somewhat viable class, mechanically. They don't need to be the perfect choice for every class, by any means, but at the moment, they're never a good choice for any class, that I'm aware of.

Especially when it comes to base races, I'd really like to see them all on at least moderately equal footing or, barring that, at least not have any that are objectively the inferior choice in almost any situation.

[Durvayas]

Half-elves are fine. Durvayas, they are already somewhat rare. And even if they weren't, you probably wouldn't notice, because half-orcs get their own models. Half-elves do not.

The free dodge feat does mean they are a viable pick for weapon master builds, which is okay in my books.

It would be nice if we had a way to identify them visually, easily. But that isn't possible with mechanical tweaking alone. We'd need haks for that.

You can identify them through examining the PC. It shows up as their race.

That said. I was saying that they are fine as is. They have their niche and they make for decent weaponmasters and any other build that needs dodge.

[Ebonstar]

just have a plague hit humans that limits the mechanics, watch their numbers fall like the 29 stock market, all the min maxers would be chasing their tails not having an optimal race

then Half Elves will rise and take over

[CosmicOrderV]

Shadow dancers and Weapon Masters both make good use of half elf. Something that might be cool, is perhaps if having the dodge feat eventually qualified one for free uncanny dodge I at a certain level. Small enough, while being loosely related. Would also accomplish making Dodge marginally more useful than a simple feat tax for things you actually want.

[Opustus]

Balance considerations aside, half-elves are relatively much played according to the latest counts here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&start=25

Buildwise, half-elves are still a good option for arcane archers with Zen Archery.

Balancewise, half-elf is effectively free Dodge and +2 will saves compared to human's free feat and +1 maxed skill. I agree that half-elf supports a rather monotonous way of building them into WMs and SDs, but so does practically every other race than human. Having more incentive to build half-elf into whatever would be nice.

[Sea Shanties]

Something to consider might be offering a choice of which kind of elf to be half-of-- Moon maybe gets free +1 dex, Wood +1 strength or WF:longbow, wild +1 con and doesn't leave tracks.. Something like that to encourage people to think of their background. I deliberately left Sun Elf off that list since they don't seem as likely to mate with humans.

But, we probably should be careful not to add a bonus that makes them more enticing than elves or humans. Their numbers ought to be much less than either and as mentioned they do get some RP bonuses that don't show up on paper: Myon access, ability to craft and use Moonblades and ability to mix in human politics without being seen as an elf.

[Mr_Rieper]

They don't need a bonus. Really. They are just fine, balance wise.

The fact that humans and elves are more enticing than half-elves is a very good thing, imo. Especially the popularity of humans.

Ordinarily I agree with you Sabutai, but on this point, I must insist that half-elves are fine as they are.

I have about two or three half-elves in my vault. Two of them could have been human but I chose half-elf because it was a meaningful sacrifice in mechanical ability for a bit more nuance in their backgrounds. And even then, many people find any kind of half breed to be eye-roll inducing, especially if they act as though it is their most defining feature.

It's a blessing in disguise that half-elves are so rare, believe me. For everyone's sake. Enjoy the fact that humans are dominant, followed closely by dwarves and elves. We'd be experiencing a massive amount of disillusion with the setting otherwise.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't think DnD races were ever designed from a perspective of demographics (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and I think that reasoning stands on really shaky ground.

I actually dislike that half-elves get Dodge, because it creates a bias that they *should* go down the SD or WM route. I would rather half-elves get to choose feat, or receive Gift of Tongues for free or something.

(As an aside, I wish races/subraces had greater interactivity with Gifts in general. Maybe that adds an unnecessary dimension, but I think it would make things more integrated and coherent)

[Mr_Rieper]

I don't think DnD races were ever designed from a perspective of demographics (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and I think that reasoning stands on really shaky ground.

I actually dislike that half-elves get Dodge, because it creates a bias that they *should* go down the SD or WM route. I would rather half-elves get to choose feat, or receive Gift of Tongues for free or something.

(As an aside, I wish races/subraces had greater interactivity with Gifts in general. Maybe that adds an unnecessary dimension, but I think it would make things more integrated and coherent)

Not the point. D&D was designed to be used at the discretion of a game master and worldbuilder at a table. We discard a great deal of gameplay freedoms and mechanics from the tabletop, and rely far more heavily on the lore. That is the cost of translating it into a persistent world.

In order to keep a persistent world functioning properly, the demographics DO need to somewhat match. You see this in every other forum thread which features a player with a human, elf, dwarf or drow character expressing concern over something. You see this in reward races and 5% rolls.

Tabletop D&D design is irrelevant to the discussion. This isn't a server for just 4 players and a DM. It's hardly "really shaky ground". Race mechanics on a persistent world have a large and direct influence on the demographics, which means changing their mechanics causes a ripple effect. It takes even the newbies about 2-3 weeks to learn this.