Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

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mourisson1
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by mourisson1 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:52 am

That's like the most unoriginal wizard boss killing i have ever seen.

Recent buffs to bosses, in my opinion, are a great thing, because i am used to idea that bosses require either a group, or a very skilled person who really knows what he is doing (So not just summoning EDK and giving it improved invis).

What i would like to adress more is what Ecthelion wrote. Good number of bosses on Arelith are just average mobs with higher numbers, or more spell usages. Of course there are exceptions, and those are lovely, but i would love to see more Diversity between bosses. During my ways through different nwn servers i saw elemental bosses, vulnerable only by the opposite element (Fire x Ice) and such, and i love it because it required a group who knew what to bring with them. It made wizards use other spells then maxed IGMS. It made WMs having special weapons for some bosses. I have seen a boss who when he hit 50% split into WM, Cleric, Wizard and AA, and i have seen a solutions like two sorcerrers counterspelling Cleric + Wiz, while others quickly killed them, while WM was tank-able, and AA was dealt with by darkness. Thats something that makes you remember those, because they are just awesome.

But the other thing is to actually reward players who are crazy enough to form a group and do this. What suprised me on arelith when i started was how easy it is to gather some resources. On lvl 12 when i did The Mound, i gathered enough mithrill for two sets of armor, and i was quite.. disappointed how easy it was. When we did Aurilites (before the buff) it felt really cheesy to have a rune there, because when we were in more difficult dungeons we had a cool chance to mine some iron after the last boss.

So what i would love to is on one hand more diversified and unique bosses, but also some rewards for beating those, which would feel rare. Aside from T3 runes, which are just a blessing from RNGesus it seems, most things you loot dont make it exciting, because you already got them on much easier content. Maybe something like making the bosses who would require a group to run, but on the other hand had better chances on T3 or whatever would be nice. If dungeons have different levels of difficulty, it would be nice to actually have different levels of reward. Like if someone is selling 'some awesome rare piece of ore' you would look at it and be like 'Whoa, that guy must be pretty good, and have a pretty good party to be able to gather those'
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:38 pm

One of the things I've noticed in recent playtimes is difficulty spikes within regions, that I found a bit alarming.

The two that come immediately to mind is going from the Central Quagmire to the Western Quagmire (troglodytes to yuan-ti), and 2nd floor to the 3rd floor of the Wharftown Boy's Hideout.

I think Count said this in the other thread, but I have less problem with difficulty, I just don't appreciate it as much when its jarring.

If a dungeon or area is consistently difficult, I think that's fair. When suddenly you get the rug pulled out from you, that feels less satisfying because either a) you get crushed or b) you have to back track out of there.

But I certainly think one thing Arelith could is ramp up the difficulty of all planar content. You get a Belt for surviving Anundor Cage Pits but not surviving Baator?

There's a tonal inconsistency there.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Twily » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:08 pm

Power creep is a thing, but It doesn't really bother me too much.

I think there's larger issues that need addressing, especially late game, such as XP outputs across areas relative to their difficulties.

There's areas almost any powerbuild can solo and where even RP builds can be very effective in combat if they have a tank, such as the black orcs.
It's a very good thing for dungeons like this to exist, but I feel like the XP reward should be a bit more balanced around the party size and expected level of people in that region.

There's harder dungeons that less builds can solo and are meant for higher levels that give less XP than places like the black orcs due to people generally needing a larger and higher level party to get through it.
Some of these places are still solo-able by some builds, which is what makes it tricky to balance. The Manor of Mourne, The Red Dragon Isle, and the Lowerdark dungeons as three examples.

All are great dungeons, but the XP I get there is always less than the black orcs/citadel(even if I'm L29) purely due to it generally being larger and higher level parties that go there.


A potential fix I'd suggest would be increasing the XP bonus for being in a party, allowing up to something like 6 party members before it starts becoming an XP penalty, and lower the XP of the overly rewarding areas like the orc citadel(which can be soloed as early as L20 by some characters giving around 30-35ish xp a kill, and still granting 20ish per kill at L29).

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:13 pm

Ecthelion wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:50 am
Shaeris wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am
Ecthelion wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:58 am
I don't think this is relevant.
I mean, if he is, I don't really see why he's still permitted to post on the forums.
I will say that posting something to publicly shame one person, without giving any other input to the topic at hand, is at the very best despicable. If the point you underlined was what this person tried to emphasize, PMing the Admins was enough.

I agree with the rest of your points, mostly.

I'd like to raise another point in this topic, since I think it's related enough. How about implementing something else than monsters to kill in the dungeons ? Or at least adding variations to it ?
For instance, I would love to see more enigmas/magical things such as the glowing hand at the maurs or the battlestone. Those are quite awesome. How about scripting the spawn of waves of monsters at some points of boss-fights ? How about some epic spells dropping when the boss hits 'Agonizing' ? Make bosses have flavour. Currently there's one boss that actually does super cool things and flees at the end of the combat, and that boss is super cool (Even if probably too easy. Should bump the HPs at least). And another who cast a super epic spell (Even if he has others issues !). But they do have flavour, and that's super nice.

N.B : I'm totally aware that this is not a two-hours work to implement, of course.
Everything you suggested already exists or existed at some point. Bosses with more interesting battles are a recent development, and usually require aid of a scripter to finish. I'll touch on "puzzles and enigmas" and say that they don't work in a PW, they remain a mystery up until someone finds out and tells all their buddies, who tells their buddies, and then it becomes a putton pressing chore of the dungeon where the "magic" no longer exists.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Ecthelion » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:36 pm

Cortex wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:13 pm
Ecthelion wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:50 am
Shaeris wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am

I mean, if he is, I don't really see why he's still permitted to post on the forums.
I will say that posting something to publicly shame one person, without giving any other input to the topic at hand, is at the very best despicable. If the point you underlined was what this person tried to emphasize, PMing the Admins was enough.

I agree with the rest of your points, mostly.

I'd like to raise another point in this topic, since I think it's related enough. How about implementing something else than monsters to kill in the dungeons ? Or at least adding variations to it ?
For instance, I would love to see more enigmas/magical things such as the glowing hand at the maurs or the battlestone. Those are quite awesome. How about scripting the spawn of waves of monsters at some points of boss-fights ? How about some epic spells dropping when the boss hits 'Agonizing' ? Make bosses have flavour. Currently there's one boss that actually does super cool things and flees at the end of the combat, and that boss is super cool (Even if probably too easy. Should bump the HPs at least). And another who cast a super epic spell (Even if he has others issues !). But they do have flavour, and that's super nice.

N.B : I'm totally aware that this is not a two-hours work to implement, of course.
Everything you suggested already exists or existed at some point. Bosses with more interesting battles are a recent development, and usually require aid of a scripter to finish. I'll touch on "puzzles and enigmas" and say that they don't work in a PW, they remain a mystery up until someone finds out and tells all their buddies, who tells their buddies, and then it becomes a putton pressing chore of the dungeon where the "magic" no longer exists.
I can't say for existed at some point, obviously, but behind those two epic bosses I don't see any other with scripts, currently ? Yeah, I do know that for puzzles and enigmas. Still worth having, I think !

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Durvayas » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:26 pm

Might-N-Magic wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:10 am
When I first started playing this server, I could solo the entirety of it with my first character, Salik (a rogue). Some things were tough, but with clever play, I could manage it. The first thing he couldn't solo that was added was Abazuur on RDI, understandable. Didn't bother me because the things ole Abby guarded I could get elsewhere.

After a long hiatus due to fatherhood, I've returned with another, new rogue (yay, rogue changes!). Now the game has gotten much harder in many respects. True seeing is everywhere (and still broken). Many areas have ridiculously powerful and even broken encounters to attempt solo. I don't mind much because I don't want a game I can solo everything in.

However, one thing that does bother me is in my new travels far and wide, just getting ye olde crafting items of not even "top tier" has become a suicide mission without a group of 8 in many cases. Simply bringing the number of people you need to survive the environment where you can find top tier gem nodes (for example) nearly guarantees that you won't be the person who ultimately gets them when you walk out of that dungeon. This simply means people delete and roll up one of the few powerbuilds that can solo these places. After I returned, upon joining groups I noticed that I almost invariably always saw the same handful of builds and now I know why.

It's a bit depressing, but understandable.
I've basically watched this develop in real time, and there has been a marked slow, steady, constant power creep of PvE content.
This has come along with the 'balancing' and subsequent power creep of PC power, as the module was balanced around powerbuilding, and equipment improvements.

The only times in recent memory that I can think of where PCs were actually nerfed, rather than buffed, were the subrace changes(which I honestly think were a mistake because they pushed selecting human into being much more optimal than it was before, and I think any research into the demographic changes would correlate that change) and the utter ruination of kensai as it was changed, nerfed, nerfed again, changed, nerfed and finally removed.

Aside from those two instances, it has been a steady march into higher numbers.

At the same time that PvE powercreep has gone on, the crafting system has added endgame gear, and runic items, to push those numbers even higher. Yet converse to this new meta, endgame rewards have been nerfed across the board (zinc spawning behind Abazzur and other epic bosses for example).

If you want adamantine, you're going to find it by luck or with a large party. You will not be able to go looking for it solo, because where it spawns often requires you either already HAVE the adamantine gear to survive, or you bring plenty of backup.

This has led to a rise in the number of non-heavy-armor classes overall in the meta.

Monks.
Warlocks.
Magi(in general)
And druids.

For a 'low magic' server we have an enormous number of PCs that don't fit into the warrior, rogue, or priest archetypes.

But I'm getting mildly off topic. The point is, that old PCs and old builds can't survive the current meta at all without an adjusted powerbuild holding their hand.

If you want to play a PC on arelith and them not be "weak" , "near useless", a "burden", and "utterly party dependent" it is imperative you powerbuild and minmax. It used to be optional, but now it is a requirement.

A while back there was a set of statistics shown that showed the number of each build type. If the devs publish that list again, I bet we would see a very obvious trend of a decrease in build diversity as the playerbase has been shoved towards a handful of very specific builds.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:37 pm

This pressing of PvE power creep is somewhat perplexing. No monster I've made was stronger than what they replaced (unless it was suitable/inconsistent, see: abyss), well over half changes made to PvE have been QoL changes or nerfs to difficulty, those are never brought up. The one time dragons people could solo with a summon are made harder, threads pop up.

Not all my changes, but things thorought the years and years:

More dungeons to different level rangers have been added (of varying difficulty and reward, from easy to hard).
Forest of Despair has been tweaked with QoL and made more rewarding.
Swamp/Jungle mobs have been made more rewarding.
Biteback shields were purged from multiple common mobs and remain a near boss exclusive.
Multiple oppressive or obnoxious spellcasters were tweaked or replaced to be less frustrating (Talassian mages, yuan-ti mages, pirate mages, sahuagin priestesses, list goes on).
Devastating critical outright removed from every mob that had it.
Dispel magic severely reduced if not outright removed from most monster spellbooks.

I'm sure there's even more things.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Subutai » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:29 pm

Is average party size tracked at all? I wonder if there might be some correlation. We have several people in this topic saying, "If a dungeon is too hard, find a bigger/more tailored group!", and several others saying, "I can never find a group". It could be that the increase in dungeon difficulty comes less from actually more difficult dungeons, and more from a decrease in party availability in various time zones. Early evening US EST seems to have a huge number of players on, so I'd assume a huge amount of party availability. Late evening US PST, on the other hand, often has little to no party availability unless you know people beforehand who will be available whom you've coordinated with OOC.

A 4-5 or 5-6 person party will be able to steamroll practically everything, and say that dungeons are easier/no harder. A 2-3 person party will feel locked out of content because there are a lot of dungeons too hard for their level range, with no easy remedy since they can't find any more people to go with.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Reallylongunneededplayername » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:23 am

Eh.. so basicly its about Powerbuilds vs Devs
And the further it goes, the more players are left behind.

I can get that, yeah.
To me Arelith is one server shares by two different type of games;
The "git gud" game and RP game.
And one player can play both games and the other only one.

To me the RP gamer this means a few things;

-I wont get epic mega super gear\wich is fine, I am weak, why bother being weak with a super awesome sword?

-I don't engage PvP \I didnt before due the loss of scrolls, Now I dont for I assume everyone can beat my snuggybear.

Dungeons: sure, have dungeons to challenge powerbuilds.
Just don't feed them runic materials and Adamantine.(or other rare stuff).
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Hinapples » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:05 am

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:26 pm
This has led to a rise in the number of non-heavy-armor classes overall in the meta.

Monks.
Warlocks.
Magi(in general)
And druids.

For a 'low magic' server we have an enormous number of PCs that don't fit into the warrior, rogue, or priest archetypes.
A guy in a dress with a few points in DEX and one feat has more AC than a warrior in full plate adamantine. In order for a melee class to be viable in the late game they gotta buy tons of wands from casters, they gotta buy expensive scrolls from casters, they gotta buy expensive heal and true strike potions from casters. If they want runes the only way they're gonna get them most of the time is to buy them from casters because they can't really solo any dungeons that spawn them. It is basically a pyramid scheme where casters get rich soloing dungeons and selling stuff to melee guys. So why would anyone want to play a warrior other than to gank people in PVP? I'm sure someone is gonna pop up in this thread with some rebuttal like, "My warrior solo'd this dungeon so you're wrong!" I'll bet they didn't do it without wands, scrolls, and potions they bought from casters though. Basically a warrior exists to make casters rich so that they might have a chance at finding zinc. I'm not playing melee classes again until they get a huge buff that not only makes them more viable but also unshackles them from having to rely on casters for everything.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Zavandar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:40 pm

I've played both melee and casters and I think you're wrong

melee can fight, pick up a wand, and fight better

a wizard can cast a spell, pick up a sword, and suck with it

can I cover a decent amount of content watching my air ele solo things on a wizard? Sure. Can I get some umd buffs and press whirlwind attack on a weaponmaster for a much faster time? Also sure

this idea that completely mundane people should be on par with otherwise mundane people that also have umd doesn't make sense to me. why bring just a rock to a Rock Paper Scissors fight when you can bring a rock AND paper and improve your odds?
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Hinapples » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:59 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:40 pm
1. I've played both melee and casters and I think you're wrong

2. melee can fight, pick up a wand, and fight better

3. a wizard can cast a spell, pick up a sword, and suck with it

4. can I cover a decent amount of content watching my air ele solo things on a wizard? Sure. Can I get some umd buffs and press whirlwind attack on a weaponmaster for a much faster time? Also sure

5. this idea that completely mundane people should be on par with otherwise mundane people that also have umd doesn't make sense to me. why bring just a rock to a Rock Paper Scissors fight when you can bring a rock AND paper and improve your odds?
1. You are entitled to your opinion.

2. Melee can buy a wand from a Caster to fight better. Fixed that for you.

3. A wizard can cast a spell to summon an invincible sword that is completely immune to damage.

4. You had to pay a Caster for those UMD buffs though.

5. You had to pay a Caster for the Paper in this hypothetical example. The Caster already has Rock, Paper, AND Scissors, which means they have better odds according to that logic.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Zavandar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:12 pm

yes, we're discussing opinions here.

so what you had to pay a caster? who else should you pay for spells? nobody is making you pay for anything. if you want to fight this system and just buy magic items from NPCs, go for it I guess

bbod requires constant concentration checks. a caster can't do anything else while it's up

casters don't have rock, paper and scissors. if I'm on a wizard and had TJ choose between another wizard or a weaponmaster for my group, I'll take th wm every time
Intelligence is too important

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Hinapples » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:29 pm

To be fair, PVE is mostly about coming up with the right strategy and knowing what to expect. I just ran a dungeon with both a WM and another wizard in the party, both of them died. My caster managed to finish off the boss though because I knew what the boss was weak against and used the right spells. WM's just have a lot less options which is why I said Casters already have the Rock, Paper, and Scissors whereas WM's just have Rock and have to buy the Paper from the Casters. Seeing as Casters have more strategic options at their disposal I really don't see why they should also have higher AC and better saves than a Fighter/WM in full plate adamantine armor. Fighter just seems kind of weak to me, sure they are decent at PVP but in PVE when they reach the boss it is often like they hit an insurmountable brick wall even with UMD. Maybe a Paladin or Monk with high AC and a gonne could do better but then we're really not even talking about STR based melee anymore. I just think a bit more AC and higher saves for the STR based melee classes would even the playing field a lot and make them more viable in PVE.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Zavandar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:33 pm

Not every caster gets that kind of ac, especially with the nerf to greensteel and still spell requirements (which are a feat investment). Even then, a caster PM caps out around 61 ac. A wm can get more with umd buffs and expertise.

also, melee can build for saves. It's easier to get saves than ever thanks to runes. You can't rune all that much ac, by contrast (nothing that umd/other gear wouldn't override, anyway). I've made a wm that gets high 30's in every save vs spells.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Aftond » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:47 pm

Are dungeons and monsters too catered towards optimized builds?
As an avid user of "optimal" builds I'll say that dungeons are not catering for such builds in particular. Just about anything is doable with a couple "optimal" built characters and is usually without challenge. If there was emphasis on optimal characters, there would be some challenge for powerbuilds.
If so, so we want to cater towards optimized builds, and discourage non-optimal builds?
No, it should be up to every person how they decide to build(or not build) their character. Shoehorning everyone into "optimal" builds would just ruin how some people (role)play. Which is in effect what would happen with such a change.

Skipping question 3 since its just a continuation of 2.
In general, how do you feel about the difficulty of dungeons currently, especially compared to the difficulty in the past?
I've played here for about 5 years, and the only difficulty in the past was a lack of knowledge. Both mechanics and dungeonwise. Attain those, in one way or another and things should be easier(if you want to make things easier).

I would like to end the post with this, which others have pointed out: "Roleplay builds" will have it harder in dungeons, yes. For whichever reason, you character is not the ultimate killing machine. Find some buddies =]

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:12 pm

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:33 pm
Not every caster gets that kind of ac, especially with the nerf to greensteel and still spell requirements (which are a feat investment). Even then, a caster PM caps out around 61 ac. A wm can get more with umd buffs and expertise.

also, melee can build for saves. It's easier to get saves than ever thanks to runes. You can't rune all that much ac, by contrast (nothing that umd/other gear wouldn't override, anyway). I've made a wm that gets high 30's in every save vs spells.
Saves won't save you from IGMS spam unfortunately, despite the name saves. I went out with my melee buddy again last night to fight some Duergar, and all it took was one of their wizards to go invisi before we knew it was there and pop out spamming missles when we were surrounded, and we were dead within seconds. As far as I can tell that's the only big division between casters and non casters (besides pure monks now with the changes) when it comes to pve, but I don't know what the answer is since if you give a wm defense against the issacs wizards won't ever be able to win pvp if the wm is built with saves in mind. And duh, of course you are going to build them with saves in mind.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Wrips » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am

Casters are supreme.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Zavandar » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:09 am

a wizard can only cast so many IGMS's. a sorc (and this is one of their strengths) can definitely cast a lot.

gsf: abj counters IGMS entirely w/ the shield spell (tho i know that's not something a wm can get). there are also other things you can do to mitigate the duergar mages. focusing them, breaching them, line of sighting them. archers dunk on them too
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:46 am

All of that is true Z, but not only did you not read my example on how we got got you also sorta made my point for me. We didn't know the wizard was there, the mob started moving before they were even in our line of sight. So we engaged the rest thinking there were no wizards to focus on and bam we were getting hit with it casting it 4-5 times in a row. The only class that has that as an issue right now are wm builds, since rogues can just sneak up on a mob until they find the wizards and the rest is elementary and everyone else has the option to protect from it.

The point is wms still have it harder then everyone else when it comes to leveling unless you have a healer on call at all times. Waiting around for that leads to a lot of sitting around and doing nothing or doing dungeons that are too low a level for you because you are bored. I'm totally cool with being unable to solo epic stuff, but not only do I need to find a group I need to find the right group which seems wrong to me...because really I don't need the group at all, just the cleric casting sr on me.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Zavandar » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:31 am

i did read it. that's on you for not knowing they were there. VERY rarely am i completely caught off-guard by those mages. they sequence into invis, yes, but vigilant players can still almost always see them before they do.

also? see invis is a thing

wm's having it harder to level than everyone else is false. i can't really debate with you if your argument is this misinformed.
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:14 pm

That being said, if you really think leveling a wm is as easy as any other class besides a monk (and with the changes, monk just got a whole lot better) you may be a bit too used to having casters on hand at all times when you go out and about. Which is fine, but not always feasible unless you do a lot of ooc arranging, something I try to avoid.

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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Nitro » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:57 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:14 pm
That being said, if you really think leveling a wm is as easy as any other class besides a monk (and with the changes, monk just got a whole lot better) you may be a bit too used to having casters on hand at all times when you go out and about. Which is fine, but not always feasible unless you do a lot of ooc arranging, something I try to avoid.
What? WM leveling is about 4 times faster than a caster if you're solo, you can even go with only heal kits if you absolutely hate consumables (But why would you when basic consumables are so easy to get ahold of?)

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Dreams
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Dreams » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:59 pm

I've played many different kinds of characters. WM's are very easy to PvE with. They are not reliant on mages to be around. You really only need kits and essences and you're golden. Here's a really simple guide for strategy that works in all PvE as a Weaponmaster:

Put mouse over enemy. Click enemy. Do it to the next enemy.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:11 pm

I think you guys are missing my point here. I didn't say leveling a wm was impossible, or necessarily hard. I'm 27 on my wm. The metric I am using is not based on how fast a wm can kill, but rather how much gold it costs to level a wm vs a caster once you hit 17 or so. Here's a break down of previous characters for me at 27 and how much gold they had.

Cleric 1, first character on arelith, 250 thousand gold and owned the sea leopard.

cleric 2, pirate, 900 thousand gold by 21.

wizard, 700 thousand gold and misspent a few hundred thousand on the wrong runes.

rogue/fighter, awfully built, over a million in gold.

WM, currently at 50k.

So, yes, I kill things fast and make them explode with amazing crits. It also costs me a small fortune to do so if I do onlevel dungeons in comparison to the other classes. And honestly, a buffed fire elemental kills almost as fast as a weapons master, you just have to keep it healed. Which is still much cheaper.

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