Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Subutai
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:55 am

Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Subutai » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:47 pm

I wanted to move this here to its own topic, since there have been several mentions of it in the Dragon Buffs thread (which should probably remain targeted specifically on the dragon buffs). I'll just quote my own post here, so I don't clog up the post with every mention from everyone saying something relevant.
Subutai wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:59 pm
Since these kinds of posts can understandably ruffle some feathers, I'll preface this by saying Irongron and the rest of the dev team really do a fantastic job, with lots of really interesting areas and ideas. I'm obviously having fun on Arelith, or I wouldn't be here, and a great deal of that is thanks to their hard work and dedication. So thank you all for that.

Now onto some less happy thoughts.

The monster power creep goes beyond just the difference between strong builds and "RP builds". PvE in Arelith very much caters to completely optimized builds, and the more the monsters are buffed, the more that's true, and I'm not sure what the goal is.

Is it to make the dungeons more challenging to veteran powerbuilders? That's an endless cycle. People who love to make optimal builds aren't the kin of people who are going to stop one day and say, "Ah, the perfect balance of difficulty and power. I shan't optimize further". They're going to continue to optimize to overcome the new obstacle. That's the whole challenge. Making a build that can overcome. Monster difficulty will always have to increase, because players interested that kind of powerbuilding will always optimize to beat them.

Is it to stop people from epic loot mining? The people interested in mining epic loot are going to do the same thing as the powerbuilders. Find the optimal epic loot mining builds and keep doing it.

I understand the desire to make dungeons fun for the "average" Arelith build, but it's a cyclical thing. The more difficult the dungeons, the more powerful the "average" build will be, and the more difficult the dungeons will need to be made. Eventually, you get to the point we're at now. On every other NWN server I played years ago, and in every pen and paper game I've played, min-maxing has been the dirtiest word. You know that someone's a horrible, inconsiderate player if they're a min-maxer, especially a min-maxer who doesn't RP their stats. But you look at Arelith, and that's the guide to go by. If you don't min-max, you're practically laughed out of the build forum. If you're concerned about RPing a character with 8 Cha and 8 Wis, people openly tell you "No one RPs their stats anyway". Where "Min-max" isn't a dirty word, but "sub-optimal" very much is.

This isn't all down to monster buffs and dungeon difficulty, obviously, but it doesn't help. There are a lot of players who aren't interested in PvP at all, and so shouldn't, hypothetically, need to worry about optimizing their builds. The more difficult monsters and dungeons become, though, the more having a non-optimal build is completely gated off. It's not just PvP non-optimal characters can't do, but large portions of the game itself.

I would personally much, much prefer using some roughly-normal, non-optimal build as the standard by which to make dungeons and monsters. Make the average dungeon doable by a fighter, rogue, and cleric, non-multiclassed, or something. If players want to make characters even less optimal than that, they'll struggle a bit. If players want to go above that and they're bored, that's their choice. If people exploit that to mine epic loot and we don't want them mining epic loot, come up with a system that prevents people from mining epic loot without shutting out non-optimal builds completely.
A few questions here for other players:
  • Are dungeons and monsters too catered towards optimized builds?
  • If so, so we want to cater towards optimized builds, and discourage non-optimal builds?
  • Again if so, what's the goal of catering to optimized builds? Is it to increase the challenge for those players? To restrict them from grinding for epic loot? Something else?
  • In general, how do you feel about the difficulty of dungeons currently, especially compared to the difficulty in the past?

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Nevrus » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:59 pm

The difficulty of dungeons is extremely variable even at the same level.

When I was level 26 and I had a level 26 tank friend, we tried to do the Aurilite dungeon together. Between the traps and bombardments and meteor swarms we just could NOT finish it.

But those same characters doing Minmir Manor? Piece of cake. Only slightly challenging thing is the missus, which outclasses the actual boss a great deal.

This really served to funnel people into certain content areas, where the risk-reward ratio was more in line with sanity.

Then there's Manor Mourn, which absolutely executed me and a group of 25-30's. And the bridge in Baator...

I wish that things were more consistent.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

Nobs
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Nobs » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:10 pm

Cant do it solo? - Bring a friend.
Cant do it with your friend? - bring more friends.
Still cant do it with all your friends? - start making more friends/allies.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Cortex » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:28 pm

What dungeons and monsters do you think are too difficult and why? What dungeons aren't consistent?

I'm aware the Aurilite Temple has a severe difficulty spike without warning when facing the boss.

It's been years since I last crossed the Avernus bridge, but IIRC it's implied to be an optional challenge to reach Dis without dealing with devils.

Manor of Mourn requires certain buffs, and some classes can make it a lot easier. I don't remember the reward at the end but I personally avoid the dungeon due to it's length.

To answer the OP, from things I have personally done (which is exclusively monsters on this end, not area design):

Are dungeons and monsters too catered towards optimized builds?
No. They are generally designed in a way average/below average builds can succeed, some dungeons were designed to require more than one character to clear it "easily". A monster that is buffed usually means that the challenged they pose was trivial compared to the reward.

If so, so we want to cater towards optimized builds, and discourage non-optimal builds?
There is no reason to encourage non-optimal builds unless the sacrifice they make provides something else (like craft feats). That said, the reason I design monsters the way described above is because I take into consideration the skill, build quality and potential gear an average player will have, I do not expect every player to read dozens if not hundreds of pages about mechanics to be good, but those who do that and/or have months or years of experience will also reap greater rewards from this knowledge and simply "be better" at the game.

Again if so, what's the goal of catering to optimized builds? Is it to increase the challenge for those players? To restrict them from grinding for epic loot? Something else?
The only changes I ever did with "optimized builds" in mind were aimed at PvE overpowered/cheesy builds that could solo epic content effortlessly. An old example is a certain boss having a roided out sword vs dragons when dragonshapers were the hot thing, were I to do it today I'd give him vs elemental. These changes are done not to increase challenge so much as to disable the ease of soloing (generally I don't mind a character being able to solo epic content so long it takes effort on their part and it's still risky). Indirectly it also encourages parties.

In general, how do you feel about the difficulty of dungeons currently, especially compared to the difficulty in the past?
Having played Arelith ever since 2009 ish, it's the best it's ever been across surface/UD and all level ranges. I've never felt I had no dungeons to go to in recent years on any character, and there is bound to be something you can do even if for below average EXP.
:)

azrael_athing
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:42 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by azrael_athing » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:17 pm

I'm less concerned over these late game dungeons. But don't get me started on black Wyverns.

Subutai
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:55 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Subutai » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:28 pm

azrael_athing wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:17 pm
I'm less concerned over these late game dungeons. But don't get me started on black Wyverns.
Late game type dungeons are in some ways what I'm more worried about. There are some nice places to go mid-to-late epics, but in my experiences (which isn't necessarily everyone's experience), most of them are catered with towards fairly sizable groups, or really powerful builds. That can make them fun little adventures for a group, or a nice place for powerbuilds to grind for loot, but in terms of an average player with a few hours a night of playtime, there don't seem to be a lot of dungeons at high levels that are accessible to the normal relatively small leveling groups (2-4 people, in my experience).

It seems like pre-30 characters who want to grind for XP without going on some big expedition generally end up at either the Battlefield or the Black Orcs. Everything else seems to be focused on end-game content, with a difficulty level targeted at either fairly large groups, or at powerbuilds.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:51 pm

Nobs wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:10 pm
Cant do it solo? - Bring a friend.
Cant do it with your friend? - bring more friends.
Still cant do it with all your friends? - start making more friends/allies.
This embodies how I feel about all challenges at all locations that aren't within two or three transitions outside the walls of a starting settlement with no sort of indication in the surrounding area.

When you find such a challenge, the correct response is an IC one of gathering more people to overcome the challenge. I hesitate to use the word "correct" at the risk of telling people we're doing it wrong, but it comes down to preserving the immersion of the game experience.

You have characters who can achieve legendary feats of combat and solo practically everything on the server. Whether their reputation has done anything else to merit it, they are the warriors people seek out to save/brighten/destroy/darken the world. If you don't have access to these people, you gather groups of less able but brave people to go out and overcome the challenge.

If this means it takes ten or twelve people to overcome a particular monster, this should be treated an as opportunity to RP and come together with other characters that you might not normally interact with, not a subject to complain about with regards to module design.

Wouldn't it be more immersive if not everything was able to be solved by a group of 3-4 "level-appropriate" adventurers and instead you had a reason to require a more diverse group occasionally? Have we, as an RP community, succumbed so much so to our desire for instant gratification that the only solution to such things is to ask the module builders to make them easier?

Every time I see a thread like this a little part of me dies.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:59 pm

I mean, no. Arelith is super easy as far as NwN goes and you don't need an optimal build to survive any dungeon. Some dungeons require different tactics like Cortex pointed out in his post, some require specific classes/builds to be the all star of your party. I don't see either of those things being a bad thing at all, and most just require a basic understanding of ac and saves.

Alantar
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Alantar » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:26 pm

You don't need a PowerBuild to solo most the epic content. A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush.

If there's something I'd like to see regarding epic dungeons, is at least one of them which necessary requieres a group of well prepared lvl 30 characters, working together and with good tactics, to have a chance to finish it and survive.

User avatar
Richørd
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:25 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Richørd » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:59 pm

Alantar wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:26 pm
You don't need a PowerBuild to solo most the epic content. A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush.

If there's something I'd like to see regarding epic dungeons, is at least one of them which necessary requieres a group of well prepared lvl 30 characters, working together and with good tactics, to have a chance to finish it and survive.
"A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush."
The video speaks for itself.

Yeah, no. They can solo everything.
Know why?
Because playing a pure wizard equals playing a powerbuild as long as you know what you're doing.
Does "as long as you know what you're doing" imply that you need to be a pro at videogames?
No, it just implies that you need to at least have basic skill in playing a wizard.

Are wizards on Arelith OP and does Arelith require a lot of effort to fix the balance of classes and to lessen the impact of powerbuilds?
Yes, yes, yes.

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Cortex » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:38 pm

The problem illustrated in the video is less about wizard and more about EDK, body blocking with summons and essentially exploiting the AI. The only wizardly thing done beyond summoning a dragon is casting a couple IGMS and Greater Ruin, during the time he wasn't doing that (which is majority of the time) he was shooting gonnes and healing the dragon.

Not very wizardly. If anything it just shows the area needs to be reworked a little.

That said... I do have something in store for Paush & co. SoonTM.
:)

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Nevrus » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:28 pm

Honestly there's a question of HOW things are balanced which results in a lot of this.

There's two ways to increase the difficulty of an encounter in the NWN system. Increasing the hard limits to produce an effect, and reducing the effect produced.

Hard Limits: Mechanics that have Save DC's that get spammed and don't have easy counters like wing buffets. Increasing a creature's saves, AC, AB, raw damage output. Traps that are lethal if not disarmed, meaning you need an epic level trap-disarm focused rogue or you can't do the dungeon.

Reducing effect produced: More HP, damage reduction, soak +1/10, healing kits/spells, anything that extends the encounter by taking away the thing players need to output to win- damage.

If you increase AC too much, suddenly 3/4 AB characters are fishing for 20's. If you increase a creature's saves too much, you invalidate a huge chunk of fun offensive spells, which is why there's IGMS spam- the only damage spell that remains effective against creatures with evasion and insane reflex saves, or creatures with insane will or fort saves. If you increase AB too much it means that this encounter requires a character built entirely to tank with as much AC as mechanically and mathematically possible, which often comes at the expense of damage and thus becomes tedious to level up.

But if you add elements that take away from effective damage output, WITHOUT making the creature impossible to hit with sword or sorcery, you heavily incentivize grouping for efficient victory /without requiring very specific builds to possibly engage in the content./

You want to hit them as quickly as possible to kill them before they get off their Mass Heal. They have huge physical damage reduction but are vulnerable to elemental damage, albeit with SOME reduction, meaning you want to get as many hits out with essence weapons or apply as many elemental spells as possible. Everyone feels useful in this situation, and better builds reduce risk, but it doesn't shut down your bards and spellswords and charismadins and rogues.

That's the balance issue being fought with a game like NWN compared to most other modern RPG's. There are hard numbers and some numbers become walls that can never be surpassed, and it takes several months of effort to get to a point you hit that wall and once you're there, overcoming that wall is either a matter of 'getting carried' or going back to the drawing board to optimize harder, which means you scrap your character or you de-level and remake and repeat the entire process you just went through in order to correct your mistakes of /what you clicked during the level-up screens./

One particularly nasty mob type being set up to be a 'fishing for 20's' endurance match in a dungeon is interesting and makes you engage with the content differently. Having a wall of 40 Fortitude to even stand next to a dragon who you'll then be fishing for 20's on just says that you aren't supposed to be engaging with this content at all.
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

User avatar
Flip Flappers
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:31 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Flip Flappers » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 pm

Richørd wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:59 pm
Alantar wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:26 pm
You don't need a PowerBuild to solo most the epic content. A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush.

If there's something I'd like to see regarding epic dungeons, is at least one of them which necessary requieres a group of well prepared lvl 30 characters, working together and with good tactics, to have a chance to finish it and survive.
"A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush."
The video speaks for itself.

Yeah, no. They can solo everything.
Know why?
Because playing a pure wizard equals playing a powerbuild as long as you know what you're doing.
Does "as long as you know what you're doing" imply that you need to be a pro at videogames?
No, it just implies that you need to at least have basic skill in playing a wizard.

Are wizards on Arelith OP and does Arelith require a lot of effort to fix the balance of classes and to lessen the impact of powerbuilds?
Yes, yes, yes.
aren't you permabanned?

Alantar
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Alantar » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:43 pm

They can solo Paush too, xD.

I agree with Cortex, though:
Cortex wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:38 pm
The problem illustrated in the video is less about wizard and more about EDK, body blocking with summons (...)
I don't think mages are OP, generally speaking, but there are certain spells (especially black blade) that make PvE content ridiculously easy.

Nevrus
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Nevrus » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:55 pm

As a follow-up, if you want fishing for 20's on a boss to be a mechanic, that's fine- just make it so /everyone needs to./ If it's possible to beat the AC, you are now required to beat the AC or find someone who can. If they're rocking 90 AC, the only thing that matters is more attacks, something only possible by having more attackers. THAT encourages cooperation without excluding people, because everyone is excluded!
Ganus- Riding the Isle (Active)
Aura Bigstep - Got Out Ahead (Retired)
Egos Ironhide - Shelved
Consult a medical professional before believing anything Nevrus says.

User avatar
Vincent
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:04 pm
Location: Vault 13

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Vincent » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:01 pm

Richørd wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:59 pm
Alantar wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:26 pm
You don't need a PowerBuild to solo most the epic content. A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush.

If there's something I'd like to see regarding epic dungeons, is at least one of them which necessary requieres a group of well prepared lvl 30 characters, working together and with good tactics, to have a chance to finish it and survive.
"A pure wizard/sorcerer, for example, with no optimised gear and no disc nor UMD can solo the entire server except from Paush."
The video speaks for itself.

Yeah, no. They can solo everything.
Know why?
Because playing a pure wizard equals playing a powerbuild as long as you know what you're doing.
Does "as long as you know what you're doing" imply that you need to be a pro at videogames?
No, it just implies that you need to at least have basic skill in playing a wizard.

Are wizards on Arelith OP and does Arelith require a lot of effort to fix the balance of classes and to lessen the impact of powerbuilds?
Yes, yes, yes.
I agree, those mythical 110 AC pale masters in particular are crazy OP!

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:19 pm

That's either trolling or extrememly uninformed. Let's keep things on the level.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

Skald Haldi
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:03 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Skald Haldi » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:48 am

To answer the original question. Is it a problem? Yes and no.

Yes, you too can build a sub-optimal character. What are the advantages?
1) Always lose in PVP. Sometimes so fast you don't even realize that someone is attacking you.
2) Trouble doing quests before your level is too high to do them anyway.
3) Spend a lot of time in town hoping a group will come by that will let you join.

No, some people like to have challenges to prove that they can crunch those numbers (or trick the AI) better than their neighbor. I like to do that too sometimes. It's fun and it's a power trip - but it's the definition power-gaming, not to be confused with RP.

>>>

Can a power-build generally do everything an RP build does?
Yes. This is a measure of player RP skill.
Can an RP character generally do everything a power-build does?
No. This is a measure of willingness to optimize yourself to fit the "git gud" mechanics.

This is not a fair equation. Should it be?
Depends what you want in your RP community.
How does one encourage the latter playstyle without harming the former?

1) Provide different tasks that are appropriate for both playstyles. The courier quests were a big step in the right direction!

2) Make it clear which tasks/areas are appropriate for each power level. Finding out by character death is immersion breaking.
What would be really neat is a measurement of how many parties wipe in each zone (and relative power levels)
Unfortunately, measuring "power level" is actually really difficult - it's not just player level

3) Never put "rewards most desired by RP players" behind power-grind challenges. Hey 5% roll? I'm looking at you!

4) Stop limiting writs to a certain level. Instead, simply detail the "suggested" power level.
If a power build can do level 10 content at level 5 - let them.
The same if an RP build can't do level 10 content until level 20.
Note that this concept goes VERY WELL with the "reward each quest only once" idea.
If it worked this way, players would be encouraged to tour the world to taste all the wonderful content.

5) As players, PLEASE stop expecting everyone else to be a power-build too.
I can't believe how annoyed I get when someone says sincerely "Why CAN'T you beat monster X? He's so easy!"
People aren't trying to be annoying. They are just baffled by why my character is so "weak"
Unfortunately, this has become the standard b/c almost EVERYONE is playing power-builds

Played: Peruruo Longbean, Spring Cobb, Purple (disguised), Ke Rilyn'ervs, Tern Cooper
Playing: Az'alva Sh'yalva


Ecthelion
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:55 am
Location: France

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Ecthelion » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:58 am

[/quote]
aren't you permabanned?
[/quote]

I don't think this is relevant. You could have refrained from adding this wonderful piece of art of yours to the thread. Thanks. (Totally failed the quote, too !)

As to the OP, I'll agree with Babylon is a Vampire, Arelith doesn't strike me as being hard in any ways. I would even say the opposite. Whenever I bring a party somewhere, the content gets destroyed, and it's rather boring. Without even being optimized, I mean, take seven people and you'll down everything.

The best trips I've ever done is putting ourselves in an hardcore situation with low supplies or really little number in some of the Lowerdark areas. Those were awesome. It's nice when it's difficult. It's not nice when you roll on everything.

User avatar
Shaeris
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:09 am
Location: Canada

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Shaeris » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am

Ecthelion wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:58 am
I don't think this is relevant.
I mean, if he is, I don't really see why he's still permitted to post on the forums.

Anyhow, I don't think there's any way to really prevent specific people from finding a way to steamroll a fight. Tailoring dungeon difficult to counter "optimized" builds would just make it exponentially harder for the average player to enjoy let alone finish any run they do. I think it's best to instead think about balancing fights around groups of four to five players, and to do so from the perspective of how challenging you think that engagement should be. Otherwise, just tweak anything you notice players do that borders on being an exploit.

As it stands, the difficulty of dungeons varies heavily depending on the people and wards you have at your disposal, and that's honestly okay. Players should think about what they'll be facing and precautions they'll need to take, and likewise face themselves struggling for not doing so. We're still playing a game based off an edition of D&D after all.
Past Characters: Shaeris Sedranas, Katrysa Seran, Zarune, Nishara Sedranas, Maevren Ebonhawk, Syralen, Sevrana (Disguised), Seradria Della'thar.

User avatar
Dreams
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:13 am

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Dreams » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:22 am

I want to see things get harder and harder over time, so that I can challenge myself. However, I think this should be happening at a late-game level.

Might-N-Magic
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:34 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Might-N-Magic » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:10 am

When I first started playing this server, I could solo the entirety of it with my first character, Salik (a rogue). Some things were tough, but with clever play, I could manage it. The first thing he couldn't solo that was added was Abazuur on RDI, understandable. Didn't bother me because the things ole Abby guarded I could get elsewhere.

After a long hiatus due to fatherhood, I've returned with another, new rogue (yay, rogue changes!). Now the game has gotten much harder in many respects. True seeing is everywhere (and still broken). Many areas have ridiculously powerful and even broken encounters to attempt solo. I don't mind much because I don't want a game I can solo everything in.

However, one thing that does bother me is in my new travels far and wide, just getting ye olde crafting items of not even "top tier" has become a suicide mission without a group of 8 in many cases. Simply bringing the number of people you need to survive the environment where you can find top tier gem nodes (for example) nearly guarantees that you won't be the person who ultimately gets them when you walk out of that dungeon. This simply means people delete and roll up one of the few powerbuilds that can solo these places. After I returned, upon joining groups I noticed that I almost invariably always saw the same handful of builds and now I know why.

It's a bit depressing, but understandable.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:50 am

Skald Haldi wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:48 am
No, some people like to have challenges to prove that they can crunch those numbers (or trick the AI) better than their neighbor. I like to do that too sometimes. It's fun and it's a power trip - but it's the definition power-gaming, not to be confused with RP.

***

5) As players, PLEASE stop expecting everyone else to be a power-build too.
I can't believe how annoyed I get when someone says sincerely "Why CAN'T you beat monster X? He's so easy!"
People aren't trying to be annoying. They are just baffled by why my character is so "weak"
Unfortunately, this has become the standard b/c almost EVERYONE is playing power-builds
Snipped a lot to address these in particular, as I'm one of the "bring more players/find other things to do/get creative with your tactics" voices.

I have two casters- both of which can't use conjuration spells (because even though I'm capable of understanding there are more optimal ways of doing it, my own form of power trip is to succeed with my own niche ideas). I'm not going to sit here and tell you a pure wizard is weak, or that a true flame is weak. I will tell you I have had many well-meaning people however, tell me that it's silly that I'm not dipping three or four levels in another class on my wizard for discipline, or that I didn't put way more into my constitution on my true flame.

I also have a ranger/rogue/archer. That unholy blasphemous sneak archer concept that most people in the Git-Gud corner will tell you is, frankly, a waste of the potential of attacking at range- and they're not wrong.

What's the point of this? It's that while perhaps some people are arguing from the stance that you should power-build, too, and conform, I'm not. I've handicapped myself along the way with multiple characters, and still think if I can't find a way to beat something on my own I just need to go round up a crew that wants to make the fight a little less suicidal for me.

If it takes a little while longer than normal, say three, five, or even ten play-sessions before it happens, I look at that as a significant quest arc for the character's story - why is this so important that they spend a year organizing it? What connections do they create/utilize to do it? What friendships deepen/break as a result?

I, too, have a casual play schedule- I understand that my style of play isn't for everyone, but can we be fair and say that some of us think the challenges are fun even on sub-optimal characters despite it not being convenient? Because I am, and I do.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

chris a gogo
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:14 am

To the original posting.

Personally I don't think the dungeons are to difficult.

Ive currently got a non min maxed monk that I am soloing most of the server with no umd single classed and low damage per hit.
I literally peck juggernaut's to death in hell.

Auril,mourn,duragar,giants,dis,light keep,battle field, talos temple.
Mourn was the latest dungeon ive done solo and i liked it a lot,only thing i found wrong with it was the lack of portal at the end meaning you had to walk back through all the back spawn after finishing it.


Im not going to post details because the fun part from this for me was exploring the servers and i don't want to spoil that for others,but i will say that AC is king in NWN and always has been if you can avoid or mitigate the magic damage thrown at your characters and have good AC then you can take on almost all the servers content,with alittle luck of course.

Ecthelion
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:55 am
Location: France

Re: Monster Creep and Dungeon Difficulty - Is it a problem?

Post by Ecthelion » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:50 am

Shaeris wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:35 am
Ecthelion wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:58 am
I don't think this is relevant.
I mean, if he is, I don't really see why he's still permitted to post on the forums.
I will say that posting something to publicly shame one person, without giving any other input to the topic at hand, is at the very best despicable. If the point you underlined was what this person tried to emphasize, PMing the Admins was enough.

I agree with the rest of your points, mostly.

I'd like to raise another point in this topic, since I think it's related enough. How about implementing something else than monsters to kill in the dungeons ? Or at least adding variations to it ?
For instance, I would love to see more enigmas/magical things such as the glowing hand at the maurs or the battlestone. Those are quite awesome. How about scripting the spawn of waves of monsters at some points of boss-fights ? How about some epic spells dropping when the boss hits 'Agonizing' ? Make bosses have flavour. Currently there's one boss that actually does super cool things and flees at the end of the combat, and that boss is super cool (Even if probably too easy. Should bump the HPs at least). And another who cast a super epic spell (Even if he has others issues !). But they do have flavour, and that's super nice.

N.B : I'm totally aware that this is not a two-hours work to implement, of course.

Post Reply