Dragon Buff

[theCountofMonteCristo]

Went with a group to the Temple of Auril, having a good time until we get to the boss. It was incredibly powerful compared to the dungeon. Like it from a fun fight to "Haha you lose". Why was it buffed so high in comparison to the dungeon it was in? I get the boss is supposed to be tough, but this went from like a 5 to a 10 on difficulty.

Was this to stop the 'solo looters' ?
viewtopic.php?p=190391#p190391

If so, why the collective punishment? Why make it so people who want to do that dungeon now can't? You're gating off content because a few people powerbuild. Address that problem, without punishing those of us who want to have fun in a dungeon.

[NauVaseline]

Address that problem, without punishing those of us who want to have fun in a dungeon.

Powerbuilds are not a problem. Please leave the 2008-Arelith attitude in the past where it belongs.

[Shadowy Reality]

Was it buffed recently? That boss was one of the 'easiest' dragons in Arelith. So long as you avoid the Wing Buffet it is fairly easy.

[Mythic]

Said Dragon has been Juicing and pumping iron with a heavy dose of steroids.

In short it's Swole as hell now, with 50+ damage a hit, Solidly high AB ( I believe nearing the 50's? if not in the 50's?)

The Wing Buffet has a DC of 40+ as well. And the HP has been significantly buffed, Compared to the entirety of the dungeon, Which if memory recalls, has level 16+ Writs for it. Is WAY overtuned.

It should not be guarding the exit portal anymore, It should be guarding the "Big treasure" at the end of the dungeon. With some form of warning that a Boss is ahead.

This is not the first time I've heard that a group was wiped at the boss (not the issue) But it's not optional unless you want to walk all the way back through the 5 floor dungeon.

I'm in favour of the buffs to these bosses myself, They are challenging, This one seems overturned compared to the rest of the area is all.

[RedGiant]

The main problem IMO is the wing buffet; full epic warrior with some save gear...still flat on back for most of the fight, dead. No one is scared of dragon fear anymore. Now we are all scared of dragon wind-breaking.

This seems...off.

There is no counter to this either. I would like to see dragons in general not be able to spam this.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

That's because the Dragon Wing Buffet has been a problem since it was first implemented. People will talk all day about how cheap KD spam is in PvP without discipline, but the dragons do just that except with ridiculous fortitude saves tied to 10 + Dragon Level as free actions. Dodging it is easy if you've played long enough, but if you're playing anything that has to fight dragons in melee, you are expected to build for 40+ Fortitude just for these dragons. So people do just that. It's a case of the monsters actually encouraging build design.

[Hinapples]

I haven't had any trouble with the new white dragon. In my opinion the change is a good thing. The dungeon was clearly over-farmed before. Now it is actually worth doing.

[Aodh Lazuli]

You're gating off content because a few people powerbuild.

I disagree, because...

It's a case of the monsters actually encouraging build design.

This guy is right.


Cause and effect get really messy at times.

[Ecthelion]

Made a post recently about the changes, the new ones are really awesome.
Abazzuur's flavor's still missing though, but well ! Really neat.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

The problem is not a dungeon being hard, or very hard. The problem is the insane ramp up in challenge that people have no way to know about without metagaming it. If the portal was accessible before the dragon, it would go along way to make clear the dragon is not "core" content for that dungeon, but an extra.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I got trounced by this dude recently myself, but it was just me and one other melee type. I think either the ac is too high or the wings have to be less frequent, since if you are going to miss 75% of the time or more -and- spend half the time on your back you really can't win, and even in groups its just going to come down to letting the caster go in and solo the guy.

That being said, dragons should be scary and this guy accomplishes that. Just a thin line between scary and too scary.

[Vrass]

Its not just the dragon... he has a whole frigging army in there with him. That said every time i have gone with a group to fight him we never had much trouble except for the one time when the DM decided to mess with us... that was insane though we managed to just barely win regardless.

[Astral]

I fought the dragon as 2 lvl 30 characters and we couldnt hit the thing without true strike. the knockdown has (and had in the past too) 40 dc fort save and the dragon hits with much higher ab now. I think the buffs were too much and the dragon is too strong now.

[Nobs]

They are dragons and they should be strong.

Would be great if you needed 4 to 6 well made characters to beat them.

[Ecthelion]

I fought the dragon as 2 lvl 30 characters and we couldnt hit the thing without true strike. the knockdown has (and had in the past too) 40 dc fort save and the dragon hits with much higher ab now. I think the buffs were too much and the dragon is too strong now.

I don't think it's too hard. It's cool that it's hard and that you have to use actual things to down it. It's a dragon. PC dragons have like 80 AC.

[Irongron]

Creatures are updated very often, and as such those updates don't generally get announced ahead of time.

We'll move the portal though, as that's a good point in this case.

[Vincent]

The writ doesn't require you to kill it, and the monsters you face in the levels just before the dragon feel more than appropriate, particularly those annoying mages with Isaac's.

[Opustus]

I don't mean to argue against the OP nor comment on what should or shouldn't be done. However, gearing for bosses is a facet of many games I've played and I wouldn't find it odd that for an epic boss one should gear accordingly. Here with reflex gear, to be precise. Generally balancewise it's a good idea to give most builds the distinct possibility to reach the "95% immune pls for the love of god don't roll 1" sweet spot via proper gearing.

[CosmicOrderV]

Reflex gear? I would think you mean fortitude gear, since that's what the wing buffet provokes. I think dragon's being strong is cool. Removing sneak attack immunity, or maybe changing up the formula for wing buffets, would be dope though. Maybe its something like a climb rope check, or maybe it rolls reflex save if that's higher. Maybe it's a discipline check? The fort save just seems a bit silly.

[Tarkus the dog]

A group of 30s should be able to take on the dragon. I mean, if your builds aren't based around having 8 CON and high INT on a half-orc. I want to say that 40 DC is a little bit too high, but personally I never had an issue with it unless I'm soloing. What I'd change about the wing move is, somehow, if possible, reduce the time on the ground to one round as it is on a normal knockdown since the dragon tends to spam it. The extended duration is a little bit too much, and can easily lead to party wipes and your only counter is having fort or rolling high enough. But you really should build fort/uni and CON in most if not all builds anyway.

[Shadowy Reality]

I dont think Uni + Con is enough for most builds to reliably beat the dragon wing DCs.

From what I recall the lowest DCs were about 37, the highest around the 47. Spellcraft does not apply to the Wing Buffet, most builds with Good fortitude are going to end with roughly 30 Fortitude buffed, which is very unreliable for such DCs. The only way to reliably beat them would be to have Charisma to saves, or CoT levels, which should not be expected in order to defeat a boss.

I don't mind the DCs being that high, but the Knockdown does need to be reduced in duration, it is currently about 3 rounds from what I recall, which is way way too long. I would reduce DCs by a bit and reduce the Knockdown to 1 round, it is still a tough fight.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

So assuming low end saving throw progression and no secondary boosts, the average level 30's saves will be +11 before Con modifier. Assuming again that the Con Mod is "low." Say, 14 Con with full Con Gear and full +20 Saving Boost, that ends up as 39 Fortitude. So it is possible if fully geared for the job mostly even with a squishy wizard. The issue I have is that nothing else on the server demands this much dedication just to minimize time on your butt against KD saves potentially every single round. I don't think it's "fun" to fight this in melee, and it's also just as irritating playing a mage or an archer that shoots the thing and suddenly it decides to turn everything into Super Smash Bros Ground Pound Benny Hill. So participation in the fight gets controlled to minimize it's movement on top of the stupid mechanics.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have it as an option ever. It's just stupid that it's the "only" option they really seem to have these days. A cheap KD action that defines the entire meta around a gear check. Give them more options and abilities. Heck, script in some other dragon like abilities if needed to improve engagement variety. Make their elemental vulnerabilities shine and like any good creature design, show strengths and weaknesses.

#MakeDragonsGreatAgain

[Shadowy Reality]

Wizard30

Fortitude: 6 base + 5 epic + 9 con + 11 uni + 2 protection alignment = 33

You can argue that meleers will have higher base fort, and that is correct, but they will also have less uni saves due to tighter gear limitations. You will not reliably make the save. And this is with either high end runes or lucky non godsavable 5%s.

I don't particularly mind failing the saves, but as is you spend 3 rounds down and as soon as you get up you do down again. Whereas with a ranger character you can entirely avoid them.

[ReverentBlade]

I've always lensed before the dragon anyway. CC spam mechanics aren't fun in polished Blizzard games, let alone something that is getting old enough to un-ironically call "vintage". Anything in a game that makes me passively watch is a pretty firm "no thanks". I think this particular facet could be better thought, or at least some more casual-friendly counters introduce that don't require entire specific builds and gearsets. Rings of Sure-Footedness in the loot that are tagged to provide immune to wing buffet specifically? Change it to a Discipline check since that's what KD uses and is more prevalently geared for? There's options.

[Ecthelion]

Just make it shorter, the stun. Let's not put more stupid discipline checks.