Dice related things

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Ascheriit
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Dice related things

Post by Ascheriit » Thu May 23, 2019 9:31 pm

So I've had a few thoughts that have come up recently that are related to dice. Some of these have come up because of talks with other players or just some observations.

1. What about a "-dice x" command where x is a number of sides. This could then have your character emote out something along the lines of "Bobby mcplayercharacter rolled a 4 on a 6 sided dice." This could be a helpful rp mechanic for making decisions such as who gets a certain piece of loot, or which direction to go.

2. We already have dice tables on the server, but have we thought about making them craftable? Was thinking about this so that players could add them to a place for a thematic/and functional element. Also would seem to make sense under carpentry or perhaps a fancy stone table under art.

Doing one would probably make two unnecessary because you could just use the command anywhere to use dice, though if the table has more built into it it may still have uses.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Zahlfire » Thu May 23, 2019 9:43 pm

I like the idea, at least the -dice command one. It'd be pretty useful for a variety of things from a simple coin flip decision to RP combat.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu May 23, 2019 9:58 pm

There's a certain rule that I always use at my pen & paper tables, that dice rolls are never used in any player vs player related. They're only ever used against NPCs or the environment. If two players are disputing something, they need to RP and the DM makes the decision.

Seems like an odd point to make. But ultimately a lot of problems arise when players are allowed to make dice rolls against one another. "My persuade roll was a nat 20, you have to listen to me now." "My intimidate check was super high, you'd be afraid of me."

This, granted, isn't what was suggested in the first post. But rolling one dice is as good as any other, and you will get cheeky players who try to make rolls and demand that others do what they say OOC. And if that doesn't matter, just use the dice roller on the console and tell the other player what the result was? They don't want to hear it? Well, there you go. All the relevant rolls you need to make against NPCs or in PvP are already built into NWN. The server, unfortunately, is not like pen & paper in that regard. There is no DM constantly present at the table who is arbitrating whether every roll is fair or warranted. There are very few good reasons to want rollable dice for OOC purposes, and many more reasons to not use it. This is the reason the server doesn't use dice bags, or have dice rolling tools.

The combat system exists for a reason. I would say that if you want to RP combat through emotes, then you need to have good faith in the other players involved and trust them to be good sports about it. If you must, roll dice on the console and tell them what your roll was. However I don't think you will find many players on the server willing to engage in longer RPed fights.

All that being said, I'm not opposed to craftable dice tables for IC games and gambling. But it would be nice if we got a craftable red/white flag first.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Royal Blood » Thu May 23, 2019 11:04 pm

We've talked about dice before I agree they be super useful. But I think the response has been very firm saying that they will never implement them. I don't agree with the logic, I suspect they will reiterate the point in the thread later.

I think the idea is that they don't want people bound to roll fails like forcing people to roll and the conflict that might cause.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Ork » Fri May 24, 2019 2:09 am

You can always roll D20s through the console with ~d20

I've used it before for anytime I've had cooperative parties wanting a skill check.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri May 24, 2019 2:28 am

Like Mr Rieper seemed to suggest (and I want to say there was a suggestion way-back-when, where the Dev answer was the same), an officially supported dice command would undoubtedly be viewed as a valid means of bypassing the WYSIWYG rule, which goes against the spirit of arelith. For everything else, there's console commands.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Subutai » Fri May 24, 2019 2:32 am

I think a dice system would be great, although I don't think there needs to be a full system. There's no need to include bluff or persuade, for example, but there could be some really good ones. Bouncer RP could be a lot of fun rolling touch attacks vs. someone's armorless AC, for example, or things like arm wrestling contests with strength.

I agree with the points that most rolls weren't meant for player vs. player, but I do think that there's merit to some non-skill-check rolls, or even to things like spot or lore, for things like characters who have odd tattoos that might be recognized somehow, but they don't necessarily want to include a description of them in their profile in order to avoid metagaming

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Ascheriit » Fri May 24, 2019 4:47 am

So I wasn't meaning the command to be used for skill checks, but as a way to essentially emote out rolling some dice. Not do the console command. Even so it seems like concern is there for it being used to bypass mechanics/rules. That makes option 1 probably not possible.

I'm still not seeing much against a craftable dice table though

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Re: Dice related things

Post by The Kriv » Fri May 24, 2019 5:09 am

oops.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri May 24, 2019 5:58 am

CosmicOrderV wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:28 am
Like Mr Rieper seemed to suggest (and I want to say there was a suggestion way-back-when, where the Dev answer was the same), an officially supported dice command would undoubtedly be viewed as a valid means of bypassing the WYSIWYG rule, which goes against the spirit of arelith. For everything else, there's console commands.
I agree with your concerns here, but I believe this is an easy solution- I believe the dice-bag can function through a conversation which can clearly state you are not required to engage in "roll-play" and that use of the dice bag is voluntary ONLY, in the description of the item as well as the conversation.

While it is good to be trusting of your fellow players, it is a drastic quality of life improvement to see that the stranger you just added to your party in the dungeon really did roll that 20 they're claiming they popped for whatever reason you'd like to know, rather than just taking their word for it.

I don't believe it has to engender a culture of "you must use the dice-bag" at all, as long as it is clearly indicated otherwise. I might, however, suggest it would be in poor taste to acquiesce by rolling, and then take it back afterwards if you roll poorly.

But that's another discussion for another day.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Queen Titania » Fri May 24, 2019 7:21 am

This is a roleplay server, not a rollplay server.

If you want to use a roll for yourself, use the console command. Otherwise though, it's not happening, and doesn't have much of a place outside of NPCs and DM quests.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Ascheriit » Fri May 24, 2019 8:09 am

DM Titania wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:21 am
This is a roleplay server, not a rollplay server.

If you want to use a roll for yourself, use the console command. Otherwise though, it's not happening, and doesn't have much of a place outside of NPCs and DM quests.
So the first of the two suggestions obviously isn't happening, even though it would be nice for those of us who don't get chances at quests.

The second one about a craftable dice table does anyone see anything inherently wrong with that?

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Re: Dice related things

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri May 24, 2019 9:00 am

How about craftable dice?

I do think in character rolling bones for loot would likely make for some game for people (Including whether or not the loser holding the loot decides to go along with the roll or not).
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Orian_666 » Fri May 24, 2019 9:34 am

I have used the dice tables quite a bit to decide who gets loot, it's the simplest and fairest way most of the time.

Though i'm in favor of a dice system on the server I'm well aware by now that it's not going to be implemented and have accepted that fact, however a craftable/portable set of d6 to "play dice" outside of using the tables seems fine to me so long as it's made crystal clear that it's an IC action and you're actually rolling physical Die, so it can't be used to determine the outcome of combat/skill checks against other players etc etc.
It's sole purpose would be the exact same as the dice tables but they'd be portable instead.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Skald Haldi » Fri May 24, 2019 11:18 am

This topic is discussing IC dice - which would be nifty for all sorts of role-play. The obvious example is games of chance or random determinations. "Do we go left or right?" (flip a coin).

Right now, if I wanted to do that with a character, I would flip a coin OOC and then emote the result in-character... and then other players would have to trust me. If they don't, their characters could argue that my character is cheating with the dice? Seems fine, I guess. Is that what the DMs really want?

I can understand how OOC dice could cause problems - especially if people start using them for in-game decisions. However, this is already happening anyway! When two friendly and cooperative players want to check their skills against each other, what can they do except use tells to communicate (and then trust each other) ?

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Orian_666 » Fri May 24, 2019 11:41 am

The only way I could see Player to Player IG die checks, for skills and stats and the like, against each other working is if it was an item you "used" on the other player, once you use it and select what check you wanna make a dialogue option could then appear for the other player and they could either accept or reject it, opting to let the RP decide it, or to take the roll and go with that.
That way it couldn't be "forced" on anyone, it's all consensual, and the results would be displayed to both players involved so the "OOC trust" thing wouldn't be a factor.

So that way the decision is up to the players,
RP it out without a roll check to help "make a decision", something that's fine and tried and tested to work.
Or use the rolls in conjunction with the RP to help get a good solid outcome on some sort of conflict or challenge, something both players need to consent to and agree upon in advance, which is a way of playing that plenty of folk prefer, myself included.

But like I already said it's been made clear that die rolls to challenge another player in a skill or other kind of check isn't going to be a thing at all, which is fine, but I do see no reason why something that already exists IG (the Dice Table) couldn't get a portable version which like Skald said could just be a handy little thing to have, and a bit of fun too :D

It'll be interesting to see if any contributor or admin weighs in on the addition of a portable dice table item could ever be seen in the future. Strictly for IC things like gambling, and being the equivalent of flipping a coin to determine one option or another, a winner or a loser over an item, etc etc.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Nevrus » Fri May 24, 2019 6:01 pm

I think just creating an Elaborate Flipping Coin that's craftable by Art Crafting would solve a lot of these issues. A simple text broadcast script. '{Name} flips the coin. It comes up {Cloak/Moon}!
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Re: Dice related things

Post by R0GUE » Fri May 24, 2019 6:12 pm

I've given up on hoping social skill rolls like Bluff, Persuade, etc. ever being introduced, but I still don't see what's so wrong with letting people roll Spot, Search, Listen, Perform, or things that are more inherent to your character and their abilities. What I'd love is instruments that when activated produce the same little tune as bard song, plus a floaty number of your perform roll.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Twily » Fri May 24, 2019 11:07 pm

There are already dice tables in the module, but I think a craftable dice table couldn't hurt.

While a cliche reasoning to use against something, I would be very reluctant to support the idea of a single dice you can carry with you and roll because it would break immersion for me. It'd be one more step in the direction of MMOs, where good loot is found, everything pauses, and people all pull out a dice to roll and see who gets it.

There's nothing wrong with a game of dice to see who gets something, but I feel it fits best back at the tavern rather than mid-dungeon.
Craftable dice tables wouldn't have this downside for me due to the weight- it'd be impractical to carry around all the time, and so it'd pop up in taverns, gambling halls, etc.

Regarding an OOC dicebag tool, while it's already been stated it won't happen I just want to say I wholeheartedly support not having them as well.
I played on a server that had these, and it was horrendous.

While at times it 'could' be used in a story advancing manner, almost every use was a case of trying to force another player to do something they didn't want to, and was a complete break in the immersion and roleplay due to a 'Hold on, lets roll dice for that'.

Just picture:
A criminal flees from a guard when confronted, the guard emotes trying to grab the person. Pause everything; as the criminal rolls a reflex and/or the guard rolls a grapple check. Meanwhile having to hope every other player around doesn't jump in with a sword against the fleeing criminal while dice are rolled.
And then comes the OOC arguments about what fits the rulebook: One player says it should be a Grapple Vs Touch AC followed by a Strength check, the other says it should be a basic roll vs reflex. Yes, I saw these types of arguments occur regularly(nearly daily) on the server that permitted dice bags.

They 'can' be good, but based on my own experience they usually aren't.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Nitro » Fri May 24, 2019 11:48 pm

Twily wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:07 pm
Craftable dice tables wouldn't have this downside for me due to the weight- it'd be impractical to carry around all the time, and so it'd pop up in taverns, gambling halls, etc.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Orian_666 » Sat May 25, 2019 1:13 am

Twily wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:07 pm
While a cliche reasoning to use against something, I would be very reluctant to support the idea of a single dice you can carry with you and roll because it would break immersion for me. It'd be one more step in the direction of MMOs, where good loot is found, everything pauses, and people all pull out a dice to roll and see who gets it.
I completely disagree with this. Even though it's a fantasy setting with magic and monsters it's also very heavily based on certain eras of real world history and in such times people carrying Dice was actually very common.

Dice was one of the few ways common folk could gamble and play games in many places of the world for many timeframes that could be comparable to the Faerunian setting, plus they were easily carved from stone or wood so it was affordable too.

It may seem a bit strange to pull out some dice in the middle of a dungeon to determine who gets the special magic sword, but this is where the fantasy /and/ game factors come into account. Frankly I think it's far more believable than the notion that one person is carrying three hundred amulets/rings, 50ish magic scrolls, 4 monsters heads, and a small armory of weapons and equipment that was found during their latest adventure.

At the end of the day it /is/ a game, and adding in something that makes a game more like a game isn't a bad thing to me, even if I disagree that it makes it more like a game rather than being a realistic addition (which I believe it is).

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Re: Dice related things

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Sun May 26, 2019 1:48 am

Why do people like rolling dice to constitute some kind of test or measurement for interaction?

Is there like inequitable loot hoarding going on in dungeon-romping so people need some kind of "fairness" in determining loot outcomes? Isn't that like a great source of roleplay for a dungeon party?

edit: I don't think you need to roll a Spot check if you want to use it. Look at your Spot score. Is it good? Great. RP that you're more observant. Is it awful? Great, RP that you're unobservant.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Ork » Sun May 26, 2019 5:53 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:48 am
Why do people like rolling dice to constitute some kind of test or measurement for interaction?

Is there like inequitable loot hoarding going on in dungeon-romping so people need some kind of "fairness" in determining loot outcomes? Isn't that like a great source of roleplay for a dungeon party?

edit: I don't think you need to roll a Spot check if you want to use it. Look at your Spot score. Is it good? Great. RP that you're more observant. Is it awful? Great, RP that you're unobservant.
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Re: Dice related things

Post by Poolbrain » Sun May 26, 2019 8:39 am

I think the only thing the author of this topic is suggesting is a "dice bag" for characters to IC generate random numbers through dices. Not rolling skills.

I've missed REGULAR dices since the moment i stepped onto this server. Gambling, rolling for loot, chaotic evil characters rolling too see if they should kill someone or not. Chaotic character asking the dice for guidance. Doing it offscreen is lackluster and makes low odds result questioned by others. Yes please.

It's weird how characters can't pick the dices up from a dice table and just take them with you.

Again... REGULAR DICES, zero connection to rolling skills and abilities.

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Re: Dice related things

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 26, 2019 9:56 am

As mentioned multiple times by others, I a 'skill dice' change is not going to happen.

However craftable dice tables do seem reasonable, and I don't see the harm in adding say a 1d6 item? That's divorced enough from any Game Mechanics that I think it should be safe? That's just my take though.
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