[Discussion] Alternative Lore friendly solution to UMD for non-caster base classes (fighter/barbarian)

[White_935]

Greeting!

I've seen several discussions and more so build on how UMD is a necessities for most builds, and how highly it's unrecommended going pure fighter or barbarian or similar classes which the lack of access to UMD for buffs and enchantment.

Thou understandably just giving builds that goes pure a mechanical buff by just going "here have +15 umd" seems fitting both lorewise and really not giving it any flavor.

So a suggestion for a themaic solution that would not reach quite as far in.

[Fighter] Runic sigils - You may through a friendly divine or arcane spellcasters (does not require spellcaster) enchant sigils you've written into your equipment, allowing you to temporarily store a spell casted onto you by willing (intentionally storing) caster.. for you to release at will, the arcane or divine magic leaks slowly so the sigil can store a spell for X hours .. it is however easy to replenish even in the field.

[Barbarian] Runic Tattoos - You may as a pure epic barbarian either through a skilled arcane or diviner caster with II or III crafting level or a Tattooist npc with the correct scroll forge a Runic Tattoo which holds the spell, the spell is contained until the wearer triggers the spell at will.. you can store one runic tattoo per odd epic barbarian level (22, 24, 26, 28, 30) to a total of five Runic Tattoos.

Anyone else have any suggestions, or comments on giving the pure-martial classes some sort of ability to use spells on a limited scales.. so they may handles the dungeons or areas where such is needed, the intention of the idea is find a way with a theme and lore to give limited UMD access to these classes, without actually giving them the whole basket.

It would also require a balancing factor in what type of spells would be permitted, and should it be a cost associated with it, along with perhaps limiting the spell circle level..

Personally i'd limit it to circle 6, and make the cost equal to using the "scribe scroll" feat.

[Azensor]

Hate to be "that guy"

But this sure does look like a suggestion.

[White_935]

Hate to be "that guy"

But this sure does look like a suggestion.

Indeed, it is a suggestion, but since the suggestion forum is closed, i'd rather discuss the idea and see what feedback you could get.
This way i can possible promote a actually well thought out and unbiased suggestion when the suggestion section opens up

A man's idea, is rarely a good idea.. rather i hoped to promote a basis on how you could build up a reasonable choice, and then present it formally through the suggestion thread (once it opens).

[CosmicOrderV]

I'm not sure how these would mechanically manifest themselves in-game, but they're both rad concepts.

You'll find the tattoo bit as a feat in the Lord's of Darkness supplement. The fighter one sounds like an eldritch knight, or abjurant champion.

[White_935]

I'm not sure how these would mechanically manifest themselves in-game, but they're both rad concepts.

You'll find the tattoo bit as a feat in the Lord's of Darkness supplement. The fighter one sounds like an eldritch knight, or abjurant champion.

I'd imagine for the Barbarian basically you'd use a menu, and the player could apply a scroll (they just made, or have before) with their craft tier, onto the barbarian and the barbarian basically gets a Token, or a saved variable to a command menu slot (like -barb tattoo 1/2/3/4/5) once the barbarian uses the command it would self-target the "stored" spell onto the barbarian.

For the fighter i'd imagine it being similar that he activates a command by activating the command for per say -runic sigil 1 and if its empty the next spell from a friendly target is stored in the slot.. which the fighter can then reactivate, perhaps even with different effects... thou probably unbalanced, different fighter slots could also instead apply the spell as a one off on hit, or just cast the spell... really the balancing would have to be up with someone who sees the whole "spectrum" or at least discussed here future to be refined into a proper suggestion.

I hope more people will pitch and refine how this would work well, without unbalancing the whole thing, yet giving a finger to the pure martial classes to be able to handle the lack of UMD, while maintaining a thematic lore on why they can do it.

[Richørd]

This sounds like it would drag Arelith further down the uncanny valley.

[White_935]

This sounds like it would drag Arelith further down the uncanny valley.

You mean the valley where every class is more or less already requiring UMD?

The idea is to slightly lift up the martial pure classes to have a limited spell access, thus not forcing to "dip" into another class simply for the sake of being able to match up the required "buffing" level for many PvE areas and whatnot, but also making sure such a lift is following a theme fitting the class, rather than just throwing in the skill.

RP builds/pure builds tends to suffer for it, in a world where magic is extremely powerful, due to the low magic on items by default..

Anyhow do explain future on the reference of uncanny valley, could be something i missed which makes this suggestion have a negative overall effect on the balance of the server

[Braid]

I'd love for something like this. The benefits of getting UMD far out weigh the benefits going pure martial or those that don't go for UMD.

Or there could be more mundane item options? I wouldn't know how to go about it but it would be nice if 28 Fighters/Barbarians could get more.

[Ebonstar]

it sounds pretty cool you could include monk in the mix as well

[White_935]

it sounds pretty cool you could include monk in the mix as well

I don't know how it would work for monks (their pretty powerful already) but i suppose there could be a thematic solution for Pure Monks as well, but i can't really think of any.

What type of solution/lore/method would you see a theme for a monk to somehow store spells?
You could possibly go whole nother direction with monk and instead look for a meditative state (like ritual magic) where spending a period in meditative states could simulate some of the spells most commonly needed, such as resistance against death magic, and buffing spell as temporarily magically gained effects perhaps?

Generally the idea is to give the classes whom lack any kind of casting abilities to cover the almost necessary needs of UMD without going the whole way, and keeping a lore theme tightly bound to the method.

[Ebonstar]

it sounds pretty cool you could include monk in the mix as well

I don't know how it would work for monks (their pretty powerful already) but i suppose there could be a thematic solution for Pure Monks as well, but i can't really think of any.

What type of solution/lore/method would you see a theme for a monk to somehow store spells?
You could possibly go whole nother direction with monk and instead look for a meditative state (like ritual magic) where spending a period in meditative states could simulate some of the spells most commonly needed, such as resistance against death magic, and buffing spell as temporarily magically gained effects perhaps?

Generally the idea is to give the classes whom lack any kind of casting abilities to cover the almost necessary needs of UMD without going the whole way, and keeping a lore theme tightly bound to the method.

yes monks have their own mystic abilities but they still lack the standard buffs like you mentioned. the ritual tattoos or brands could apply the same way for the zoo spells.

they dont need haste or the like but bulls cats owls are still used for monks as well, but only those who go pure of course

[White_935]

it sounds pretty cool you could include monk in the mix as well

I don't know how it would work for monks (their pretty powerful already) but i suppose there could be a thematic solution for Pure Monks as well, but i can't really think of any.

What type of solution/lore/method would you see a theme for a monk to somehow store spells?
You could possibly go whole nother direction with monk and instead look for a meditative state (like ritual magic) where spending a period in meditative states could simulate some of the spells most commonly needed, such as resistance against death magic, and buffing spell as temporarily magically gained effects perhaps?

Generally the idea is to give the classes whom lack any kind of casting abilities to cover the almost necessary needs of UMD without going the whole way, and keeping a lore theme tightly bound to the method.

yes monks have their own mystic abilities but they still lack the standard buffs like you mentioned. the ritual tattoos or brands could apply the same way for the zoo spells.

they dont need haste or the like but bulls cats owls are still used for monks as well, but only those who go pure of course

Hm, i understand, could you think of something else than Tattoos/brand that would be suitable for a monk? Personally i'd imagine the idea of the monk being able to use a menu (like in the rest menu) to sit down and meditate (preparation) for a short while to generate said buff effects.

This would allow us to seperate the themes, so it doesn't become a plain copy.
Alternatively it could also be instead changed to allow you to use some of your KI (ki strikes) into different effects, as if expanding what a monk can actively do with their KI ?

[Skarain]

Recently, several new craft-able potions that produce the effect of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement were introduced.

Most craft-able potions Potions last as long as Wands do.

Not enough to be a full-on solution and make people to manage without UMD?

[White_935]

Recently, several new craft-able potions that produce the effect of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement were introduced.

Most craft-able potions Potions last as long as Wands do.

Not enough to be a full-on solution and make people to manage without UMD?

With the prices and cost, not to mention the difficulty, while a great supplement which certainly has leviated "some" of it.. you'd force every pure martial class to become potionists, since their either not sold, in low quantities or with prices which is unfeasible.

I don't think that's a complete solution personally.

[Astral]

Recently, several new craft-able potions that produce the effect of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement were introduced.

Most craft-able potions Potions last as long as Wands do.

Not enough to be a full-on solution and make people to manage without UMD?

You still need UMD for high lvl scrolls such as WoF, Mord, Time Stop, Breach wands, Mind Blank and more essential things these potions dont (and probably will not) replace.

[White_935]

Recently, several new craft-able potions that produce the effect of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement were introduced.

Most craft-able potions Potions last as long as Wands do.

Not enough to be a full-on solution and make people to manage without UMD?

You still need UMD for high lvl scrolls such as WoF, Mord, Time Stop, Breach wands, Mind Blank and more essential things these potions dont (and probably will not) replace.

Indeed, there are a lot of useful spells beyond the mere effect of said potions, it also goes that Pure Builds tends to fall off in general equally.

This would at least allow for some evening out of the playing field, as now these classes can combine some of the UMD scrolls with their class for a more overall effective and enjoyable time when in smaller groups, or god forbid traveling alone.

The intention is not to make a equal alternative, but at least lift up these pure builds (RP often) to a semi-similar level without giving a complete free-card (as it would still be -less- effective than UMD) as it would be limited in scope and ability.. not to mention needing recharging, which you cannot do simply at will or simply by stacking scrolls..along with a theme that would be interesting for the character from a roleplay perspective.

But i do not think that this should work for the highest tier spells, like Mord, timestop etc... you don't need "more" timestop already

That being said, am loving the new changes with additional potions personally, and i think it makes a big difference

[Ebonstar]

Recently, several new craft-able potions that produce the effect of Death Ward and Freedom of Movement were introduced.

Most craft-able potions Potions last as long as Wands do.

Not enough to be a full-on solution and make people to manage without UMD?

You still need UMD for high lvl scrolls such as WoF, Mord, Time Stop, Breach wands, Mind Blank and more essential things these potions dont (and probably will not) replace.

not everyone wants to run around with a scroll collection though, so these ideas are feasible and promote not being on the umd wagon. same reason why not everyone plays a wizard or a cleric

[Ebonstar]

I don't know how it would work for monks (their pretty powerful already) but i suppose there could be a thematic solution for Pure Monks as well, but i can't really think of any.

What type of solution/lore/method would you see a theme for a monk to somehow store spells?
You could possibly go whole nother direction with monk and instead look for a meditative state (like ritual magic) where spending a period in meditative states could simulate some of the spells most commonly needed, such as resistance against death magic, and buffing spell as temporarily magically gained effects perhaps?

Generally the idea is to give the classes whom lack any kind of casting abilities to cover the almost necessary needs of UMD without going the whole way, and keeping a lore theme tightly bound to the method.

yes monks have their own mystic abilities but they still lack the standard buffs like you mentioned. the ritual tattoos or brands could apply the same way for the zoo spells.

they dont need haste or the like but bulls cats owls are still used for monks as well, but only those who go pure of course

Hm, i understand, could you think of something else than Tattoos/brand that would be suitable for a monk? Personally i'd imagine the idea of the monk being able to use a menu (like in the rest menu) to sit down and meditate (preparation) for a short while to generate said buff effects.

This would allow us to seperate the themes, so it doesn't become a plain copy.
Alternatively it could also be instead changed to allow you to use some of your KI (ki strikes) into different effects, as if expanding what a monk can actively do with their KI ?

I could see it as a directing the ki type of thing

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

While I do wish that all builds didn't need UMD, you have to be careful not to make fighters too good. 23 fighter 7 weapons master would be a hell of a build if they had access to all the magical defenses of a caster class, in particular dwarves and elves because of the +4 weapons they have access too since the 23rd level would make them the equivalent of a +5 weapon.

[White_935]

While I do wish that all builds didn't need UMD, you have to be careful not to make fighters too good. 23 fighter 7 weapons master would be a hell of a build if they had access to all the magical defenses of a caster class, in particular dwarves and elves because of the +4 weapons they have access too since the 23rd level would make them the equivalent of a +5 weapon.

The intent is that the idea would -only- work for pure versions of the class, since it lacks any UMD alternative, thus enabling, not a equal but a thematic, version which offers "some" of the similar benefits but not quite all the way..'

Basically per say, you could limit the spell tier, and other limitations easily, the point is to give a hand in the cookie jar, so that these classes are not completely helpless before the multi-class versions which always dips into UMD.

But you make a fair point, it has to be carefully balanced, so that it doesn't turn the fighter or barbarian into a version which is capable of facing down a equivalent.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Just open up all the skills as class skills, Nothing wrong with that:

Why can't a fighter be skilled in preformance? " Sometimes, On my battles, I feel happy, And just start to sing a tune"

Or maybe a Barbarian in spellcraft " Yes, That is a fireball she is casting, I had seven comming at my face this week already"

A cleric with apraisal " Well, Cleric of Waukeen, What did you expect?"

A rogue with animal empathy " I like petting animals, They like to follow me for more affection"

A paladin with bluff " Yeah, That is just silly "

But, Yeah, I think we could all profit in this, build wise and RP wise.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The best way *edit* (the most dramatic not best) to balance the "must have umd" of arelith would be to crash the economy (which would be a terrible idea). In a world where all your citizens are high leveled adventurers, products catering to umd are common place. Its just the nature of the beast. UMD in PnP was intended to be a niche cool skill, not a must have (you never had a problem of having too much money and there were plenty of wonderous items that did not nees umd). The economy of arelith is just simply different.

Another dramatic change, which is a world which I would like but know is not practical, is make potions and wands actaully use the caster level used to make them which is built into the cost which is how DnD is supposed to be.

The current meta and balance of classes right now is the assumption one can not be instantly dispelled as a mundane character. So i doubt this would ever happen as it would require some massive overhauls to what has organicly grown and developed for over a decade.

[White_935]

The best way *edit* (the most dramatic not best) to balance the "must have umd" of arelith would be to crash the economy (which would be a terrible idea). In a world where all your citizens are high leveled adventurers, products catering to umd are common place. Its just the nature of the beast. UMD in PnP was intended to be a niche cool skill, not a must have (you never had a problem of having too much money and there were plenty of wonderous items that did not nees umd). The economy of arelith is just simply different.

Another dramatic change, which is a world which I would like but know is not practical, is make potions and wands actaully use the caster level used to make them which is built into the cost which is how DnD is supposed to be.

The current meta and balance of classes right now is the assumption one can not be instantly dispelled as a mundane character. So i doubt this would ever happen as it would require some massive overhauls to what has organicly grown and developed for over a decade.

The idea is not really to change UMD, or affect it.
but to give a alternative to UMD with similar outcome to the pure Martial classes in this discussion, thou you do touch on some valid points.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The challenge of alternatives is the alternative can not always be eqaully as useful, otherwise investing the gold/time/money to make umd useful becomes a hassle with little incentive. Its why i like the monk update, it made pure monks a lot more viable without demolishing the integretity (some builds even slightly better now) of other builds.

Pure Fighters use to get a lot better server bonuses and had to be tweaked because of how ridiculously top tier it was. You may notice that there are already extrabonuses to every class for going pure. Its hard to properly balance it while still being fair to umd/tumble users.

[White_935]

The challenge of alternatives is the alternative can not always be eqaully as useful, otherwise investing the gold/time/money to make umd useful becomes a hassle with little incentive. Its why i like the monk update, it made pure monks a lot more viable without demolishing the integretity (some builds even slightly better now) of other builds.

Pure Fighters use to get a lot better server bonuses and had to be tweaked because of how ridiculously top tier it was. You may notice that there are already extrabonuses to every class for going pure. Its hard to properly balance it while still being fair to umd/tumble users.

The only thing barbarians get for going pure is a +2 or +3 1h/2her in rage and possibly +1 or +2 damage if they have a insane constitution investment in their character.

It is hardly a large balancing factor, to allow a alternative to "dipping" into rogue with no roleplay aspect behind it.