[Discussion] Alternative Lore friendly solution to UMD for non-caster base classes (fighter/barbarian)

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The challenge of alternatives is the alternative can not always be eqaully as useful, otherwise investing the gold/time/money to make umd useful becomes a hassle with little incentive. Its why i like the monk update, it made pure monks a lot more viable without demolishing the integretity (some builds even slightly better now) of other builds.

Pure Fighters use to get a lot better server bonuses and had to be tweaked because of how ridiculously top tier it was. You may notice that there are already extrabonuses to every class for going pure. Its hard to properly balance it while still being fair to umd/tumble users.

The only thing barbarians get for going pure is a +2 or +3 1h/2her in rage and possibly +1 or +2 damage if they have a insane constitution investment in their character.

It is hardly a large balancing factor, to allow a alternative to "dipping" into rogue with no roleplay aspect behind it.

Like i said, if it was comparible, it would cause other problems. 2 ab is actaully worth an epic feat or two. I think tumble providing ac in neverwinter nights to begin with is a silly thing in itself. Its because there are so little you can do in terms of tumbling in the video game version that they implemented such a concept.

I veen thinking about the meta a long time, and I don't think lack of incentive to go pure is the biggest problem, i think how mandatory ot is to be human int 14 for the skill points plus combat expertise is the problem.

Combat expertise is completely op as a toggle on feat that gives you ac even while flatfooted, it is beyond silly and makes the feat no longer just s good choice, but mandatory. Trading ab for ac is a no brainer when you haven't even engaged in combat yet. Combat expertise being such a god tier feat int 13 mininum mandatory for all characters on top of the feat tax. This is what makes humans the master race for all the cookie cutter builds, feat and skill taxes (since umd, CE, and tumble become almost mandatory taxes for a character to invest in). You are already 1 int point away from 14 and boom as a human now all cookie butter builds are essentially rolling with any race int 16 worth of skill points. You know how silly it is from a rp concept that i need to roll uncharismatic geniuses for all my generic melee characters?

If combat expertise wasnt such a god tier feat, low int characters could be more viable and thus builds that now would not afford umd and tumble dumps. Maybe nerfing CE wouldnt be quite enough, but there is a problem with needing to make every character a borderline genius.

[White_935]

The challenge of alternatives is the alternative can not always be eqaully as useful, otherwise investing the gold/time/money to make umd useful becomes a hassle with little incentive. Its why i like the monk update, it made pure monks a lot more viable without demolishing the integretity (some builds even slightly better now) of other builds.

Pure Fighters use to get a lot better server bonuses and had to be tweaked because of how ridiculously top tier it was. You may notice that there are already extrabonuses to every class for going pure. Its hard to properly balance it while still being fair to umd/tumble users.

The only thing barbarians get for going pure is a +2 or +3 1h/2her in rage and possibly +1 or +2 damage if they have a insane constitution investment in their character.

It is hardly a large balancing factor, to allow a alternative to "dipping" into rogue with no roleplay aspect behind it.

Like i said, if it was comparible, it would cause other problems. 2 ab is actaully worth an epic feat or two. I think tumble providing ac in neverwinter nights to begin with is a silly thing in itself. Its because there are so little you can do in terms of tumbling in the video game version that they implemented such a concept.

I veen thinking about the meta a long time, and I don't think lack of incentive to go pure is the biggest problem, i think how mandatory ot is to be human int 14 for the skill points plus combat expertise is the problem.

Combat expertise is completely op as a toggle on feat that gives you ac even while flatfooted, it is beyond silly and makes the feat no longer just s good choice, but mandatory. Trading ab for ac is a no brainer when you haven't even engaged in combat yet. Combat expertise being such a god tier feat int 13 mininum mandatory for all characters on top of the feat tax. This is what makes humans the master race for all the cookie cutter builds, feat and skill taxes (since umd, CE, and tumble become almost mandatory taxes for a character to invest in). You are already 1 int point away from 14 and boom as a human now all cookie butter builds are essentially rolling with any race int 16 worth of skill points. You know how silly it is from a rp concept that i need to roll uncharismatic geniuses for all my generic melee characters?

If combat expertise wasnt such a god tier feat, low int characters could be more viable and thus builds that now would not afford umd and tumble dumps. Maybe nerfing CE wouldnt be quite enough, but there is a problem with needing to make every character a borderline genius.

Oh, i completely agree, my "pure" Barbarian has 10 int, 14 charisma and No expertise.
I am going to suffer, and i am going to cry, but that's beside the point.

as you also agree UMD and Tumble is more or less "required" for the dump, yet you can't access it with Barbarian (well you can cross skill limited for +3 ac). but on general level every build more or less Shouts to dip into 3 rogue, and pure barbarian don't really give you anything for those last 3 levels.. to avoid dipping.

That being said both fighter and barbarian have nice bonuses, don't take me wrong, but without access to UMD it becomes a near impossibility to do some of the dungeons or even match up.

The idea is and was to have a thematic alternative for these classes from dipping, that at least reaches halfway as if they dipped for UMD.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

My solutions unfortunately would be a bit extreme as i think the root of many problems is how mandatory skill points and combat expertise is and perhaps i was inappropriately hijacking the thread.

[White_935]

My solutions unfortunately would be a bit extreme as i think the root of many problems is how mandatory skill points and combat expertise is and perhaps i was inappropriately hijacking the thread.

While extreme, you have many valid points, and definitely need addressing.. but i think a suggestion to redesign the entire build structure of all the classes would require a major workover.

This idea would at least be a easier step to implement to gap over for "some" of the cases.. but certainly there is a elephant in the room that we do not wish and possible can't address around the requirement of UMD for classes (and semi requirement for tumble).

But for now, let's refine the suggestion for a thematic solution for the pure martial builds, that have no arcane or divine caster abilities to use unless they dip for UMD.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Well this was kind of how kensais became what they were never intended to become. A must take path if you were foregoing umd as a martial class. Not everyone argued kensais were super op, it's just so many of them were made by people who gladly gave up umd (which apparently was a lot of players). So i feel like it's a half decent baseline to get the conversation going. Because i dont feel we should give non umd users magic like abilities. The whole point is one could viable rp a guy who does not dabble in magic at all without being a super outcast of building communities. We just buffed pure monk with some neat tricks so i dont think a generic bonus for all martial non umd would work (like kensais).

I kind of wish anti magic fields was a thing. Would wreak so much havoc with metas (including martial builds that build around maximizing use of magical equipment. Again too extreme lol.

I also think tumble is just as much as a must have for martial classes as umd (it not more). 6 ac is essentially a plus 3 tower shield (imagine a two hander vs swoed and board and only sword and board had tumble). That is what makes the 3 rogue dip for weapon master builds so freaking powerful. Evasion, 6 ac, umd, skill points to help with the dump, 2d6 sneak and no loss of ab. You just simply can not pack that much worth into a pure version of a class without the bonuses being ridiculously silly.

[CosmicOrderV]

Personally im fond of just letting all skills be cross-classed. Skill points tend to be tight on most builds anyways. It opens options but still requires a sacrifice. Most this achieves is 15, anyways. 15 UMD? Standard.

[CosmicOrderV]

Being succinct, i would just say your assessment is based on some inconsistent class concepts.

Judge a fish by how well it flies, and you're always going to find the wrong answer.

[Zavandar]

terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea that has been argued to death and is argued to death every few months (there is a search function, you know).

this game is balanced around only a few classes having UMD. opening it up to everyone would break things. it is easier to get by without UMD than it ever has been before with death ward and freedom potions.

and on that note, opening up every skill to every class would be even worse. y'all want 30 clerics with full disc and umd running around? 30 druids with full tumble, disc, and umd? these requests are always made by people that don't actually look at the broader ramifications of mechanical changes and just want things that seem "cool".

having a game that isn't busted is cool.

if you want UMD and tumble, take the dip. be creative. that's what we're here for, right?

[CosmicOrderV]

Cross-class means it's 2 points to 1 conversion, hence the maxing at 15, remark. No one would be full 33, and none of them could get Epic Skill Focus, for this same reason (the prereq is 20 ranks).

Furthermore, there's only so many options (read: creativity) one has when there are 4 classes that have access to UMD, when UMD is something you want. Notice that one of those classes, the Warlock, was never a part of original NWN, so 'balancing' these things has been done, and can be done again, in the future. For this reason, I would add, it might at least just be fun to see UMD opened up (either as a cross-class skill, or full class skill) to specific classes. So when people do skill dump, they at least have additional options of which class' flavor they want with their dump, instead of the same two that always get picked.

Or if there's perceived to not be enough sacrifice, we could add a new feat that grants UMD, either as a class or cross-class skill. Flavor this feat like one of the original concepts the OP described? Full circle.

There's honestly tons of ways to handle it, that wouldn't throw off the current paradigm of class meta.

[Zavandar]

creating warlock from the ground up took a LOT of time and many passes, and it's still gotten substantial changes relatively recently.

that's also creating ONE class, as opposed to having to rebalance every OTHER class for this change.

it would absolutely throw off the meta. a lot.

[Peppermint]

It's funny that warlock is brought up, considering the headache it's caused. Having previously been on (and spoken with other members of) the team, I can assure you that had warlock not already been a thing by the time Mithreas passed on the server, it'd have never been implemented. Not in a million years.

At any rate, there's no harm in multiclassing. It's just part of the game. It's no more "bad for roleplay" than any other decisions made due to mechanical viability (e.g. Blind Fight on nearly every fighter build). I can assure you that no one's going to be analyzing your character sheet and thinking, "Oh my gosh, this guy took three levels in rogue, and he's not roleplaying it. My immersion is ruined!"

No one cares. Really. It doesn't matter. If the entirety of your character is wrapped up in the exact level spread on your character sheet, then honey, I've got news for you: your character is boring. It might be time to rethink your approach.

[CosmicOrderV]

At the risk of de-railing a little bit, I'd like to pose a serious question (well, really several questions):

How much of this idea that warlock was a headache to implement, stems from the fact that it was implemented during a time when Arelith used only vanilla resources? Therefore, how much of this sentiment is stuck in the past? We've come to EE, and the advent of HAKs. There are worlds of content already created. Already balanced. All at the Dev's purview to tweak, and adapt, as necessary. The standard is changing. Maybe so too should our expectations?

All the same, just because something is difficult, does that mean it's not worth doing?

[Ork]

All the same, just because something is difficult, does that mean it's not worth doing?

I agree with this concerning the entire topic. While I like the balance we currently enjoy, I am more excited by the progress and change we can accomplish. We're playing an ancient game, and a lot of the enjoyment we derive from Arelith are related directly to the improvements the developers have made to vanilla nwn.

Skills haven't, and shouldn't, remain unchanged. Rocking the status quo shouldn't be something to fear and based on areliths updates - the devs aren't afraid of doing just that.

[azrael_athing]

Didn't read every post above mine so hopefully I'm not repeating something that already been said.

What I'd like to add to the discussion is the reverse, that we are indeed looking at the issue from the wrong way around. Not making UMD available for more people but rather for less people.

Every other shop is selling wands as the primary item to stock, quite in response to the amount of UMD-users around the island and the quick gold that it brings from catering to these people. What I'd would like to see is that this practise, which is currently so much economicaly stronger (as it takes no foraging, mining or whatnot) then potionmaking or crafting mundane items, be nerfed.

My suggestion in how this would be achieved would be to make Scrolls and Wands tricky and painful to make simply by taking away from the matrix the blank scrolls and blank wands.

This effectively would make wands a luxuary item which most builds would try to avoid relying on (which in turn would stimulate RP as they would actually have to find someone to cast for them rather then to be the solo-do-it-all kind of character) in turn this would put the non-UMD builds in a much more favorable position.

Thoughts?

[Sea Shanties]

There might be something to that but you're overstating how easy it is to make cash from wands.

They do sell for thousands but It also costs thousands of gold and some xp to make a wand, the margins of profit generally aren't very good at all.. You tend to make a few hundred to one thousand profit for a wand at best. And that's for something like a divine haste or improved invisibility wand which is in high demand (and that high demand is as much with non-UMD druids and clerics as UMD users.) They also really don't sell quickly so you could make 50,000 gp worth of wands that sit there for weeks.

There's certainly room to tweak the formula and hey, maybe wands should be crafted, I don't know. But in general they aren't nearly the cash cow that actual crafts that take effort can be, especially making high-end weapons and armor.