Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Locked
the grim yeeter
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat May 18, 2019 8:33 pm

Hello. I just walked into someone with both the standard Belt of Champions' text and the seal of the Radiant Heart part in their description. I don't think I have to explain more about how this does not make sense at all, RP-wise. Image in the link here: https://imgur.com/a/Or8CAvd

It should absolutely not be possible for certain alignments or classes (such as paladins) to be able to do cage fights in the Underdark.
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

User avatar
MajorArcana
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by MajorArcana » Sat May 18, 2019 8:40 pm

I second this, with the addition that paladins or otherwise Good alignment people who already possess the belt should either suffer an alignment shift and/or add an alignment requirement to the belt so that it cannot be equipped without being some flavor of Neutral or Evil.
Last edited by MajorArcana on Sat May 18, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

monkeywithstick
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:54 am
Location: UK

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by monkeywithstick » Sat May 18, 2019 8:52 pm

The horse, it died months ago. Please stop flogging it.
(Or go to the other extant thread)
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23845
Characters: Izzy, short for Isabel. Shaena Ash.

the grim yeeter
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by the grim yeeter » Sat May 18, 2019 8:59 pm

monkeywithstick wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:52 pm
The horse, it died months ago. Please stop flogging it.
(Or go to the other extant thread)
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23845
Please, I would appreciate it if you focused on the actual point made. Otherwise, please refrain from replying if it really bothers you. Thanks!
Sockss wrote: There is an overriding premise that all changes should be appreciated and welcomed because someone has taken time out for free to make them. [...] I don't believe volunteering should put your work above criticism [...] .

Nobs
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Nobs » Sat May 18, 2019 10:37 pm

When the lust for power takes over ;)

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Peppermint » Sat May 18, 2019 11:00 pm

Man. Shortly after the cage was introduced, I used it as a challenge for surfacers, i.e., "Beat the gauntlet, and I'll release this precious slave back to you." The Andunor games. It was a ton of fun with an underlying moral dilemma thrown into the mix.

I'd hate to see the cage alignment-restricted.

Though I feel the belt should just be alignment-restricted (impossible to bypass via UMD). The current solution makes no roleplay sense (why would a society built on subterfuge "reward" combatants with a belt that boldly proclaims your identity), feels a little band-aidy (are we going to start putting addendums on descriptions for everything objectionable in roleplay?) and doesn't solve everything anyway; Mr. Good and Righteous can just slap on his belt when he runs off to grind with little fear of repercussions.

User avatar
MalKalz
General Admin
General Admin
Posts: 3023
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by MalKalz » Sat May 18, 2019 11:08 pm

If there is a concern about paladins fighting the cage fight, report it.

DMs will look into the matter and address any concerns. The circumstances as to the role play behind it may not be entirely aware.

As Peppermint said, there are ways to trick people or have them fight that shouldn’t for bargaining reasons. Someone could be fighting to free slaves or otherwise.

Why not question them IG about why they would be show boating something with the moral implications that the cage fights has?

Discord: @malkalz
Determine your Public CD Key here
Can't see your vault? Have you migrated your accounts? If you have tried, and still can't see them, message me.


strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by strong yeet » Sun May 19, 2019 12:14 am

Murdering slaves to free slaves is doing an Evil action, whether it's with good intentions or not. The context should not be relevant, , a Paladin does not do evil under any circumstance if he is going to continue being a Paladin.

Paladins who do the cage for any reason would have to do some kind of significant atonement or face falling -- note that a fall does not mean they are no longer Lawful Good, just that they aren't paladins. I probably don't have to explain why murdering the hell out of of a bunch of captured creatures (who are, after the Minotaur, not of races usually Evil-aligned aside from the two constructs) is an activity that would result in falling, right?

Yes, doing an Evil thing under duress is still DO NOT PASS GO for a paladin. That's sort of the shtick of their class after all, I'm not sure if restricting all Good aligned characters to it is necessary but I know I've reported paladins doing the Beast fight many times. Maybe I just got unlucky, or maybe what was reported was misunderstood in its severity.

Subutai
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:55 am

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Subutai » Sun May 19, 2019 12:41 am

Why are there two threads on this same subject going at the same time?

JubJub
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:42 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by JubJub » Sun May 19, 2019 2:27 am

I think this thread is more about if it gores with the oaths of the radiant heart.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Ork » Sun May 19, 2019 3:06 am

the grim yeeter wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:59 pm
monkeywithstick wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:52 pm
The horse, it died months ago. Please stop flogging it.
(Or go to the other extant thread)
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23845
Please, I would appreciate it if you focused on the actual point made. Otherwise, please refrain from replying if it really bothers you. Thanks!
We literally have a thread about this already.

Might-N-Magic
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:34 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Might-N-Magic » Sun May 19, 2019 3:11 am

*rants about how crappy this version of the underdark is, where surfacers just waltz around the place like it were the Nomad*

(sigh)

I miss Udos...

Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Xerah » Sun May 19, 2019 4:01 am

With objective alignment there is no reason a Paladin would ever kill slaves to get the belt. They would choose death first.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Subutai
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 428
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:55 am

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Subutai » Sun May 19, 2019 5:30 am

In regards to paladins, specifically, I don't know that this has to come down to the unending objective vs. subjective alignment debate. Paladins, conceptually, aren't merely Lawful Good warriors. but something much closer to the romantic ideal of knighthood, where each paladin ceaselessly upholds the highest, most stringent expectations of virtue.

In a black and white world, paladins are the whitest of white. No one can possibly question their dedication to good and to law, as nearly every action they take can objectively be seen to forward those ideals. Their code is difficult to uphold because the rules of law and good are so precise, and they have little to no room to stray from those rules.

In a gray world of more subjectivity, paladins are an attempt to find absolutes. To them, their code is what it means to be good. It doesn't matter what society thinks, or cultures think, or what anyone or anything else things. Their code is a beacon of light in a world of musky fog.

This is why Paladins falls. Just like Lancelot fell when he failed to uphold his codes of knightly virtue, so too does a paladin fall when she fails to uphold her own code. Being Lawful Good isn't hard. Anyone can be Lawful good as long as they help little old ladies cross the street at the crosswalk on a green light. Being a Paladin is hard, because it means being a paragon of virtue, oftentimes in a land where virtue doesn't count for anything, and where even a Paladin's fellow heroes don't uphold the Paladin's own moral convictions.

A good person might have some justification to kill slaves that wouldn't cause him to become evil, but the same isn't necessarily true of a Paladin. For a Paladin, whether killing the slave could theoretically be considered good or not, it may still be against their own holy vows, and breaking those vows, whatever it did to their alignment, would cause them to fail not as a good person, but as a Paladin.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Sockss » Sun May 19, 2019 9:25 am

The 'good person' vs 'paladin' is a really good way of looking at it.

A paladin is not 'ends justify the means' based, at all and paladins are rarely 'nice' or 'good' people, by modern standards.

They have a rigorous code to follow and they must follow it at all times, doing evil to prevent greater evil is not something a Paladin would do - but it is something someone formerly a paladin might have done.

So yes, a paladin might have been forced or tricked into the cage - or any number of scenarios. That doesn't change that after participating, for whatever reason, they should fall. While the alignment shift of their actions may come off net positive to good, they still cease to be a paladin.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Hobojoe
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:24 am

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by Hobojoe » Sun May 19, 2019 9:25 am

Even assuming you've taken part in these brutal blood sports unwillingly, to then go on and proudly wear the championship belt displaying your crimes seems very questionable. The best approach however is to address this IC, make sure wearing the belt carries weight.
Thrar of the Winterwood

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Belt Of Champions and Paladins (or other good-aligned characters)

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun May 19, 2019 12:45 pm

monkeywithstick wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 8:52 pm
The horse, it died months ago. Please stop flogging it.
(Or go to the other extant thread)
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=23845
Yeah, but really. We have another thread on this. Let's carry it on there ok? Spyre has already given an answer anyway. I'm locking this for now so as not to clutter matters.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Locked