Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

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Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Durvayas » Mon May 13, 2019 8:57 am

The umber hulk (huge) in the stinger caves serves absolutley no purpose but to kill off entire parties of level appropriate PCs for the dungeon.
The stingers is a lvl 8-10-ish dungeon, but the umber hulk (huge) spawns in only one other place on the server, and thats the lowerdark, a zone meant for mid epics. Even a full party of lowbies will be curbstomped by this creature as it hits like a truck, has high AB, has a confusion cone with DCs well above what any party of level appropriate PCs can hope to resist, and it uses its cone multiple times. It also has DR.

In addition to this, there are slow traps in the tunnels leading away from the boss, so if PCs aren't killed immediately, they will be later when they hit these traps, are slowed, and die.

When you couple this incredibly cheap TPK design with the fact that there is basically no reward for killing this thing, even if you DO somehow manage it with a party, this is out and out unfun, unfair, and terrible level design. All it does right now is punish level appropriate people for being curious and exploring the entirety of the dungeon, which is a behavior that should be encouraged, rather than punished with a random epic mob behind a nondescript door.

Solutions:
  • The reward needs to be adjusted so that there is ever a reason for people to go into that area of the dungeon intentionally.
  • The Huge hulk needs to be replaced with two of the smaller umber hulks. Still a challenge, but a more appropriate one at that level.
  • There needs to be some kind of visual cue to warn people that a boss(which is harder than anything they'll face for at LEAST 6 levels) is lurking behind that door. Maybe some skulls or one of the floaty text warnings about the stingers avoiding the door or something. Right now its just a blank hallway, then you open the door and its "Surprise!" *shitstomped*
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Vrass » Mon May 13, 2019 8:05 pm

Then you open the door and its "Surprise!" *shitstomped*
Sounds like my first encounter with the Butcher in Diablo.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Intrepid42 » Mon May 13, 2019 8:29 pm

I like the Umber Hulk. It serves a purpose in that it teaches that the Underdark is dangerous and unpredictable, and does so early when the cost of learning is less.

Skeletons out front would make sense since so many have fallen to the beast.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by TimeAdept » Mon May 13, 2019 9:02 pm

It's bad game design. Danger in the Underdark can be created without a 'screw you' mechanic that only serves to kill the OOCly uninformed. This could be done through a challenging but CR appropriate encounter with environmental tells and clues that warn the player away from the area, rather than, as a reminder, a monster from a lvl ~20-25ish area in an area for level 6-9's.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Iceborn » Mon May 13, 2019 9:52 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 9:02 pm
It's bad game design. Danger in the Underdark can be created without a 'screw you' mechanic that only serves to kill the OOCly uninformed. This could be done through a challenging but CR appropriate encounter with environmental tells and clues that warn the player away from the area, rather than, as a reminder, a monster from a lvl ~20-25ish area in an area for level 6-9's.
If there was a time when "haha, screw you!" was a valid way of showing players that UD is scary, we have long since passed it.
There are far better ways to show danger and dread that don't revolve around dropping mechanics that will kill characters instantly.

Heck, I'd like "shambling" umber hulk - it's still strong, but it's way weakened and moves really slowly. Strong enough to give you a fight, but still be defeated, or at least giving you the chance to run away if you can't kill it. In that case your party is left like "man, that thing was bleeding and starved, and we barely took it down. Imagine what a feral one would do...".
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Archnon » Mon May 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Have you ever tried to run away from that thing. He follows you to the portal!

That being said, when i played my insane outcast, i loved to open the door to that room and laugh hysterically and tell my party members it was the funniest joke i knew. :lol: Everyone died every time, :D

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by liver and bones » Tue May 14, 2019 2:07 am

Archnon wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:23 pm
Have you ever tried to run away from that thing. He follows you to the portal!

That being said, when i played my insane outcast, i loved to open the door to that room and laugh hysterically and tell my party members it was the funniest joke i knew. :lol: Everyone died every time, :D
That sounds like griefing. I don't know if I would admit that.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Ork » Tue May 14, 2019 2:17 am

Hardly griefing. Jeez.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Archnon » Tue May 14, 2019 3:07 am

liver and bones wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:07 am
Archnon wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:23 pm
Have you ever tried to run away from that thing. He follows you to the portal!

That being said, when i played my insane outcast, i loved to open the door to that room and laugh hysterically and tell my party members it was the funniest joke i knew. :lol: Everyone died every time, :D
That sounds like griefing. I don't know if I would admit that.
I would stay and fight it and tell them to run, lol.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Ork » Tue May 14, 2019 3:16 am

Situations like that are RP fuel, man. Imagine. Your drow crawls his way free of the umber hulks grasp after his crazed compatriot left him for dead. Blood runs in rivets from an abrasion above his right eye, and he stumbled blinded from the cave. Alive. He returns to Andunor weary, angry, and bitter.

Through the portal, he sees his former companion coaxing another group to the stinger caves. An ingenious idea burgeons into his mind, and soon the trap is set. The crazed companion once again leads his wayward new party to the umber hulk, but just as he is about to leave..you appear, curse him in a thousand tongues and bind him in place with a hold person spell.

Justice.

The sign of a great roleplayers are the people who can create these events, and the players that roll with them and make them their own.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Maladus » Tue May 14, 2019 3:42 am

I second this.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Archnon » Tue May 14, 2019 4:37 am

Ork wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:16 am
Situations like that are RP fuel, man. Imagine. Your drow crawls his way free of the umber hulks grasp after his crazed compatriot left him for dead. Blood runs in rivets from an abrasion above his right eye, and he stumbled blinded from the cave. Alive. He returns to Andunor weary, angry, and bitter.

Through the portal, he sees his former companion coaxing another group to the stinger caves. An ingenious idea burgeons into his mind, and soon the trap is set. The crazed companion once again leads his wayward new party to the umber hulk, but just as he is about to leave..you appear, curse him in a thousand tongues and bind him in place with a hold person spell.

Justice.

The sign of a great roleplayers are the people who can create these events, and the players that roll with them and make them their own.
It is nice to see someone appreciated my genius.....

However, not to hijack the thread, I think that most dungeons seems to have an area like this. I think on Skal in the abandoned mines something big spawns in a room you do not need to enter as well. It is just a fun, gotcha thing. Most people learn to avoid quickly, or after you fail once. Some use it for continued RP

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Durvayas » Tue May 14, 2019 11:24 am

An important detail; Its impossible to godsave and escape the hulk. Its true seeing sees through Gsanc, and it will hostile you within seconds of a godsave. You basically get a three second head start, which is just enough to give the uninitiated false hope before they hit the slow traps.

The only people being killed by this thing are people who haven't been killed before. Players will, and DO, metagame this hulk's existance across many characters, because there simply isn't any fun in letting yourself get jumped and wiping the party more than once in your arelith career. It just ends the dungeon run entirely. Everyone loses a pittance of exp, loses all of the gold collected during the trip, takes a loss on the healing supplies spent getting to that point, and everyone over lvl 8 spends an hour aggravated over the respawn debuff.

The only reason to ever go back is if you intentionally want to wipe out your party, which in my view is kind of a dick move tbh unless everyone else is in on it. There are better ways and places to engineer a hair-raising 'in over your head' scenario for dramatic effect without a guaranteed TPK of everyone involved.
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Astral » Tue May 14, 2019 12:06 pm

Vrass wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:05 pm
Then you open the door and its "Surprise!" *shitstomped*
Sounds like my first encounter with the Butcher in Diablo.
Yes. Exactly.

The Hulk can be toned down a bit, I'm sure. It exceeds the average level of the area by a lot. I'd say it can be toned down a bit and it'd still remain a "screw you, UD is dangerous" encounter because right now, by the time you can actually fight that thing you dont really have any business in that dungeon.
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Peppermint » Sat May 18, 2019 11:19 pm

I kind of like the Umber Hulk.

First time I ran into it, it started kicking my butt liberally. Can't say I found it tough to run from though. It's fat, still slower than you, and you can close the doors behind yourself as you run to create even more distance. If you get caught by the thing, you either 1) got KD-chained, or 2) you're literally not even trying.

That said, it should probably have the KD removed and be made just a smidge slower still (e.g. -10% movement speed) to make it obvious you're supposed to run from it.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Irongron » Sat May 18, 2019 11:27 pm

From Blue Yeeks, to the Sand Golems, the Sentinel Orbs, a certain group of beholders and some animated suits of armour, over the last few years I've put in quite a few creatures that while not impossible to destroy, are designed to be evaded.

I find the added urgent drama of having to run can make a dungeon a lot more fun, as players have to decide just which approach is better. Its also something for rogues as it invites the use of traps, or thinking through a strategy.

But there is one main problem. On many such occasions I've received messages telling me that the creatures is overpowered and should be remade so as to be easily beatable. In the case of some there are even clues in the description. I think many players, especially if they are in a 'mindless grind' state of mind, presume that everything is designed to be bulldozered through. Its only when we have enough 'thinking dungeons' that player behaviour will adjust.

Because still, in almost all dungeons on Arelith, the monsters are designed to be destroyed.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat May 18, 2019 11:48 pm

I welcome the idea of monsters you have to run away from and appreciate the effort towards making dungeons less of a mindless grind. I do think that there should be consideration to make sure running away is possible when extremely strong monsters are found in lower level areas. I think these extra-powerful monsters should be a lesson not to always stay and fight and reward the cowards and to do so they need a significant weakness that allows you to get away.

I think this particular creature that I believe has true sight will follow through darkness, invisibility and stealth retreats so the "OH CRAP! RUN!" usually doesn't work. It doesn't help that running away would be through narrow tunnels that will likely be choked with spawns of stingers to slow you down.

Perhaps Leave it in place and remove true sight or halve its moving speed so a party does have a fighting chance to retreat? If it's lumbering behind you slowly all the way while you cut through stinger spawns, that's an epic escape. If it trails all the way at the same pace you're out of luck even if you haste. Traps are of course an option or using summons to hold it up, I realize so it's not as hopeless as I and others make it sound, but I still think these higher level creatures need a blind spot.

Last thing to bring up is, running away does mean there's a much higher level creature ready to ambush the next person in an unexpected place. That's a factor too.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Archnon » Sun May 19, 2019 1:16 am

What if it also hostiles the stingers. I'm noIt seems like it doesn't really fit so maybe you stumbled on a territorial dispute. Then you can rp staying and watching the fight, picking off the losers, or running. I think this kind of dynamic would be fun in a lot of areas. Don't know if it is possible though

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Iceborn » Sun May 19, 2019 1:39 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:27 pm
From Blue Yeeks, to the Sand Golems, the Sentinel Orbs, a certain group of beholders and some animated suits of armour, over the last few years I've put in quite a few creatures that while not impossible to destroy, are designed to be evaded.

I find the added urgent drama of having to run can make a dungeon a lot more fun, as players have to decide just which approach is better. Its also something for rogues as it invites the use of traps, or thinking through a strategy.

But there is one main problem. On many such occasions I've received messages telling me that the creatures is overpowered and should be remade so as to be easily beatable. In the case of some there are even clues in the description. I think many players, especially if they are in a 'mindless grind' state of mind, presume that everything is designed to be bulldozered through. Its only when we have enough 'thinking dungeons' that player behaviour will adjust.

Because still, in almost all dungeons on Arelith, the monsters are designed to be destroyed.
I don't see anything wrong in this design philosophy (except perhaps expecting anybody to use traps. That just rarely happens).
Though I'd point that the hulk, and any other encounter you wish to design this way do need a few visual cues to warn you before you are inevitably screwed (because if you release it, you are inevitably screwed).
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Subutai » Sun May 19, 2019 5:43 am

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:27 pm
In the case of some there are even clues in the description
I get the point of this, but I'm afraid it's a bit useless to put much of anything in the description. 99.9% of the time, by the time you're close enough to read an enemy's description, it's already too late. The same is true of getting into an encounter before you realize you have to evade it. By the time it's evident you're outmatched, you're probably so close to death that you'll only escape by luck.

I think there really does have to be some kind of indication before the encounter begins, and before the enemy is in line of sight, that it's going to wreck your day unless you evade it.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Durvayas » Sun May 19, 2019 2:02 pm

Irongron wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 11:27 pm
From Blue Yeeks, to the Sand Golems, the Sentinel Orbs, a certain group of beholders and some animated suits of armour, over the last few years I've put in quite a few creatures that while not impossible to destroy, are designed to be evaded.

I find the added urgent drama of having to run can make a dungeon a lot more fun, as players have to decide just which approach is better. Its also something for rogues as it invites the use of traps, or thinking through a strategy.

But there is one main problem. On many such occasions I've received messages telling me that the creatures is overpowered and should be remade so as to be easily beatable. In the case of some there are even clues in the description. I think many players, especially if they are in a 'mindless grind' state of mind, presume that everything is designed to be bulldozered through. Its only when we have enough 'thinking dungeons' that player behaviour will adjust.

Because still, in almost all dungeons on Arelith, the monsters are designed to be destroyed.
The idea of making run-or-die bosses is not bad, but it needs to be done with a few things in mind.
  • A large number of players don't use the examine function, ever. Not on eachother, certainly not on monsters. Additionally, you have to be within detection range of something to examine something. Relying on a description as the sole way of warning people their PCs are about to engage in a suicidal fight is not a very effective warning.
  • This particular boss moves just about as fast as you do, and there are slow traps nearby which will usually doom people.
  • This boss has a confuse ray cone with signifigant range, at a DC that level appropriate PCs will struggle with, and can doom entire parties.
  • Without any kind of scenery warning, its impossible to tell how strong this boss actually is without already engaging it in combat.
    If people do, its already too late to run, they're well within range of the confuse ray cone, and this thing will spam KDs at ABs that people will not be geared to dodge. Most people will assume its a normal boss designed for level appropriate parties. Not something for mid-epics. Just another factor in dooming lower level parties.
  • Expecting people to use traps is, frankly, wishful thinking, because Arelith disincentivizes the use of traps through monsters having heavy saves and trap-kills not granting exp. Until this is fixed, people are largely not going to use traps outside of PvP.
  • Even if people do escape, this boss is going to be sitting, warninglessly, in the middle of a lowbie dungeon, if not within three meters of a transition. Even if someone does escape, someone else is going to get cheap-shotted.
Overall, this boss needs tuning. If the plan is for people to run, it needs to be possible for that to be accomplished, ideally before one or two people in a party of three are already in the fugue. Ideally before the entire party is within the confuse ray cone. Ideally having an idea that it might be an impossible fight well before they open that door and get engaged immediately. It needs, at LEAST some environmental clues leading up to the boss door, even something as simple as:

*You see signs of a recent scuffle, as though a stinger was dragged kicking and screaming deeper into the tunnels*

Something, anything to indicate there might be a bigger fish.

Without a warning of any kind, its not really fair to the players. If you give ample warning, you could haste the boss if you wanted, and it wouldn't be a problem. Right now the encounter is very much a 'gotcha' without much, if any, way of knowing what you're getting into before you're already screwed, which is objectively not very good design and leaves a sour taste in people's mouths.

I encourage you not to take offense to the people telling you this is a problem and brushing off our criticism as people "missing the point" of your design philosophy. We want this encounter to be as thrilling as you do. We just want it to be something we can do something with besides everyone winding up in the fugue from a TPK.
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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Seekeepeek » Sun May 19, 2019 2:30 pm

just walk around it.... it's not like you need to beat everything to met. and it's location is way out of the way.
you don't need to exsaminate it to know that you need to stey away from it unless you got a party after your first run in with it.

i found it fun to do with a random party, when someone bring it up the concept of beating it. i have yet to die to it and killed it plenty of times with a party. but no.. it's not something to solo. the people in the party all been people doing the stinger writ there, so it's not impossible at all.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Nitro » Sun May 19, 2019 6:47 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:30 pm
just walk around it.... it's not like you need to beat everything to met. and it's location is way out of the way.
you don't need to exsaminate it to know that you need to stey away from it unless you got a party after your first run in with it.

i found it fun to do with a random party, when someone bring it up the concept of beating it. i have yet to die to it and killed it plenty of times with a party. but no.. it's not something to solo. the people in the party all been people doing the stinger writ there, so it's not impossible at all.
That's the crux of the issue though. It's a noobkiller plain and simple. Every experienced player will know to ignore and avoid it, but a new player or group of new players have no way of knowing they're about to get obliterated in 1-3 rounds just because they went exploring in a new area.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Ork » Sun May 19, 2019 7:05 pm

I don't really get whiy noobkiller mobs is necessarily a bad thing. Should we sterilize everyone's experience of the module so that it is easier?

This is like the umpteenth time this particular mob is brought up. Players need to experience death, and death isn't even catastrophic any more.

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Re: Umber Hulk(Huge) In The Stinger Caves Should Be Changed

Post by Ascheriit » Sun May 19, 2019 7:13 pm

I like having the mob there as it breaks away from the pure cheese grind I see and experience all to often, especially in low level areas. One thing I would say, because I don't remember the area to well in my head is that it could possibly use some more visual cues to its increased danger like some corpses about, or perhaps some large tracks on the ground in the path leading up to it. Overall I personally like its existence as a break to the norm.

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