Player Review on: Arelith

[Zavandar]

having "teams" also implies that people of similar alignments should behave identically

a year ago, the radiant heart (filled with LG people) had radically different paladins. and it was good. kept things interesting and fun.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Team Good vs Team Evil is also propaganda

The best conflict on this server has always been Team Good vs Team Good, Team Evil vs Team Evil. Team Good and Anti-villain Evil vs. Evil. Team Evil and Morally Grey vs. Team Lawfulness.

The best moments are when conflict blurs the lines of alignment, and you have to start making choices about who's the biggest threat. If you're staring a pit fiend, are you really going to turn around and smite the assassin at your side, who is also wanting to kill the pit fiend?

etc.

[Ork]

Agreed. I always knew on my paladins when I finally made it by when people would call them "false". There is no team good, and that sort of tribalism only serves to kill good character development.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Agreed. I always knew on my paladins when I finally made it by when people would call them "false". There is no team good, and that sort of tribalism only serves to kill good character development.

I'd say that there is a Team Good, but it's an IC thing, and a much, much smaller minority than it is made out to be- because getting people to work past those differences you're talking about is, as it should be, a monumentally daunting task to undertake, IC, and most people don't find it fun, much less sustainable.

[Royal Blood]

I saw someone on another forum with this signature and I decided to steal it and use it as well because I think the spirit of the message is worth keeping in mind in all endeavors on an rp server.

I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

I kind of take that in an OOC sense. The focus is the story there's no way to win or lose really.

Another player mentioned that you can avoid OOC drama by not being involved in discords, tells etc etc. I can confirm that is not the case. Just associating with players IC will get you branded as part of their group. I've been blindsided by shade I didn't even know existed only to find out later my characters IC relation with another character was the crux of the dislike and they didn't know anything about me beyond speculation and assumption. They just assumed that because my PC supported another PC that we must surely be operating under OOC premises.

I've had it happen to me and I've felt that way towards other people too, I'm not perfect. It's difficult when some cultures of distrust and anger are spread it's hard to remain perfectly objective and detached from it, or above it. We're all just people : /

Being detached from the community makes no difference other than giving you a blind eye and lack of ability to communicate and build relationships.

Really it's all super complicated and likely impossible to untangle, these messes of OOC relations. The only logical answer I can see and keep being returned to is that you can only be the best Rper you yourself can be. Try not to add to the salt or spite others might share with you and keep a level head. I'm not a perfect example, point me towards someone who is? That is atleast the wisdom i've come to find and try to apply somtimes suceeding sometimes not.

Anyways, that's my advice. Call me a hypocrite, and you'd not be wrong. But each day and experience is another chance to improve.

[Zavandar]

I'd say that there is a Team Good, but it's an IC thing, and a much, much smaller minority than it is made out to be- because getting people to work past those differences you're talking about is, as it should be, a monumentally daunting task to undertake, IC, and most people don't find it fun, much less sustainable.

your version of "good" may not be the same as someone else's.

you're saying here, ooc, that you have an interpretation that your group shares that is superior to other people's. which is kind of part of the problem you're addressing w/ this thread.

[Lady Astray]

There are alignments in the Forgotten Realms setting, with categorically good and evil acts or deeds. Animating the dead or summoning demons is never gonna earn you good boy points and head pats on the surface. There might be some room for moral relativism, but things in FR tend to be pretty black and white. We're talking about D&D here, not real life.

Character development and teamwork/cooperation are not mutually exclusive. And there are very much teams on this server whether you like it or not. I'd even argue that being part of a team is good for character development. But be aware that if you're on one team and you keep passing the ball to the other team you're supposed to be playing against, your team has every right to be miffed at you. If you say "Screw you I don't care about winning." don't be surprised when they kick you off the team. You might just be playing for fun but others might want to play competitively. Sabotaging their chance of winning for "muh narrative" will very likely earn you their contempt.

Ultimately you are free to act how you want with your characters. But other characters are also free to react how they want. If you want to act mean or selfish or whatever with your character that's fine, but other characters don't have to like it. I'm not telling anyone how to play their character, I'm just saying to be mindful and considerate of other players around you. If playing your character is causing you and others to suffer a lot of pointless OOC drama, it might be time for a new character.

[Shadowy Reality]

Lady Astray, what I think people are arguing is that just because you share an alignment axis, or both alignment axis does not mean you are on the same team, at all.

Two Paladins might not go eye to eye, they might even have poor opinions on each others methods and work. That aside you may have someone that is actually Good but does not seem Good. If you want to infiltrate the Banite church, or free slaves in the Underdark you may need to act covertly, and that may include not being perceived as Good. Of course you can't go on animating undead and summoning demons so you are trusted, but you can definitely pretend not to be Good.

[Zavandar]

There are alignments in the Forgotten Realms setting, with categorically good and evil acts or deeds. Animating the dead or summoning demons is never gonna earn you good boy points and head pats on the surface. There might be some room for moral relativism, but things in FR tend to be pretty black and white. We're talking about D&D here, not real life.

Character development and teamwork/cooperation are not mutually exclusive. And there are very much teams on this server whether you like it or not. I'd even argue that being part of a team is good for character development. But be aware that if you're on one team and you keep passing the ball to the other team you're supposed to be playing against, your team has every right to be miffed at you. If you say "Screw you I don't care about winning." don't be surprised when they kick you off the team. You might just be playing for fun but others might want to play competitively. Sabotaging their chance of winning for "muh narrative" will very likely earn you their contempt.

Ultimately you are free to act how you want with your characters. But other characters are also free to react how they want. If you want to act mean or selfish or whatever with your character that's fine, but other characters don't have to like it. I'm not telling anyone how to play their character, I'm just saying to be mindful and considerate of other players around you. If playing your character is causing you and others to suffer a lot of pointless OOC drama, it might be time for a new character.

you were engaged in the debate for part of your post but then wandered off on some personal tangent. your post comes off as a lecture. i don't think anyone was talking about how their character was treated, but how players are.

again, the radiant heart (full of LG paladins) had people that still behaved very differently. and there are definitely teams (read, cliques), but that doesn't mean they're the "good" team. saying your team is the "good" team implies a certain superiority that doesn't help.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

No one should be subject to ooc drama over IC actions, so long as they not break the rules. Implying someone should have to make a new pc if they want to avoid ooc drama over how their PC acts IG is an utterly disgusting thing to say.

[Zavandar]

that, too

[Lady Astray]

No one should be subject to ooc drama over IC actions, so long as they not break the rules. Implying someone should have to make a new pc if they want to avoid ooc drama over how their PC acts IG is an utterly disgusting thing to say.

I agree no one should be subject to OOC drama. But it does happen. Some character archetypes are more prone to causing OOC drama than others. If you're not having fun, and the people around you aren't having fun, something obviously needs to change. Suggesting someone try a new character instead of continuing to feed into the cycle of OOC drama through their old character's actions is hardly disgusting. Making a new character is not the end of the world. It can actually give a fresh perspective and help one realize and correct their own mistakes. If you constantly find yourself involved in some kind of OOC drama then at some point you have to stop blaming other people and look at yourself.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'd say that there is a Team Good, but it's an IC thing, and a much, much smaller minority than it is made out to be- because getting people to work past those differences you're talking about is, as it should be, a monumentally daunting task to undertake, IC, and most people don't find it fun, much less sustainable.

your version of "good" may not be the same as someone else's.

you're saying here, ooc, that you have an interpretation that your group shares that is superior to other people's. which is kind of part of the problem you're addressing w/ this thread.

No, what I'm saying here is that there are characters who will, temporarily, IC'ly for the sake of overcoming something they can agree on as "evil," put these differences on hold - but that it's difficult to convince large groups of people to do that, as it should be, because being a diplomat is hard.

Not mechanically challenging hard, but in the vein of getting fifteen different people to agree to toppings for a single pizza hard. You can do it, but it takes a lot of work.

I'm not sure where you got "Team Good" (edit: or me, for that matter) is better than anyone from my post, but it's not what I was saying.

[Lady Astray]

Lady Astray, what I think people are arguing is that just because you share an alignment axis, or both alignment axis does not mean you are on the same team, at all.

Two Paladins might not go eye to eye, they might even have poor opinions on each others methods and work. That aside you may have someone that is actually Good but does not seem Good. If you want to infiltrate the Banite church, or free slaves in the Underdark you may need to act covertly, and that may include not being perceived as Good. Of course you can't go on animating undead and summoning demons so you are trusted, but you can definitely pretend not to be Good.

I think anyone who has played on this server for any amount of time knows this. I am just speaking in very broad, general terms because if I name any specific faction or settlement some oversensitive person from that group is going to get upset over some hypothetical example I listed and accuse me of "Character assassination." Team Good could mean any good aligned faction or settlement. I'm well aware there is not a literal "Team Good" on the server one can go sign up for.

[Zavandar]

No one should be subject to ooc drama over IC actions, so long as they not break the rules. Implying someone should have to make a new pc if they want to avoid ooc drama over how their PC acts IG is an utterly disgusting thing to say.

I agree no one should be subject to OOC drama. But it does happen. Some character archetypes are more prone to causing OOC drama than others. If you're not having fun, and the people around you aren't having fun, something obviously needs to change. Suggesting someone try a new character instead of continuing to feed into the cycle of OOC drama through their old character's actions is hardly disgusting. Making a new character is not the end of the world. It can actually give a fresh perspective and help one realize and correct their own mistakes. If you constantly find yourself involved in some kind of OOC drama then at some point you have to stop blaming other people and look at yourself.

this is really just blaming the victim. be critical of how the problem players act. you can have fun on a character that is otherwise the subject of a lot of drama. i have fun on rick, but that doesn't mean people being REALLY STUPID doesn't put a damper on things.

I'd say that there is a Team Good, but it's an IC thing, and a much, much smaller minority than it is made out to be- because getting people to work past those differences you're talking about is, as it should be, a monumentally daunting task to undertake, IC, and most people don't find it fun, much less sustainable.

your version of "good" may not be the same as someone else's.

you're saying here, ooc, that you have an interpretation that your group shares that is superior to other people's. which is kind of part of the problem you're addressing w/ this thread.

No, what I'm saying here is that there are characters who will, temporarily, IC'ly for the sake of overcoming something they can agree on as "evil," put these differences on hold - but that it's difficult to convince large groups of people to do that, as it should be, because being a diplomat is hard.

Not mechanically challenging hard, but in the getting fifteen different people to agree to toppings for a single pizza hard. You can do it, but it takes a lot of work.

I'm not sure where you got "Team Good" (edit: or me, for that matter) is better than anyone from my post, but it's not what I was saying.

maybe i'm reading in between lines that aren't there, but i read your post as "my group is ACTUALLY team good". if i'm wrong, my bad.

[Lady Astray]

this is really just blaming the victim. be critical of how the problem players act. you can have fun on a character that is otherwise the subject of a lot of drama. i have fun on rick, but that doesn't mean people being REALLY STUPID doesn't put a damper on things.

I have been very critical of problem players in the past. But through my own personal experience I've found that people often feed into the same OOC drama they complain about without realizing it. You can blame other people and report them all day long but unless the DM's actually ban them (which rarely happens) then nothing is likely to change. Sometimes you have to be the change you want to see. I wasn't having fun before, so I rolled, took a break, and eventually made a new character. I learned from past mistakes. Now I'm having fun again, with absolutely zero OOC drama.

[Zavandar]

a lot of bans have actually gone out. this lack of faith in the DM team is, ironically, something a lot of problem players propagate. not saying it means you are one

i get that "being the change you want to see" is a buzzphrase, but that's what i'm actually doing. i want a better experience not just for myself, but for everyone on this server. you can do that by reporting.

[Lady Astray]

You should know I'm quick to report any rule infractions I come across, no matter how petty it seems.

[Durvayas]

Oversensitivity - For clarification, I'm all about the Be Nice rule; OOC. Be civil to your fellow players. Remember that because someone shanked your toon last week doesn't mean they hate your guts and you should verbally castigate them today. However, the idea that something going wrong with your characters is an offense against you by another player is a dominant one here, and there are, at least monthly, people issuing complaints against IC behaviors and all I can think to myself is "would you like us to change your diaper for you, too?"

Hah. I recently discovered this one. Rped an event in the UD with one of the more prominent players in UD in the drow circle that ended up in PVP. I lost.

I messaged him to give a virtual high 5 for the good RP.

Turns out it wasn't RP on his part, and I was met with threats to kill me every 24 hours, how he was friends with everyone and I would be black balled from the server, and a host of other nastiness.

It didn't slow me down any, but I definitely avoid him and the drow cliques like cancer now.

Thats a highly unusual and wholly unacceptable action on their part. I encourage you not to write off all of the drow factions over one landmine. One should remember that there is at least one landmine in just about every settlement on Arelith. Thats why we have the ability to report to the DMs.

[Zavandar]

You should know I'm quick to report any rule infractions I come across, no matter how petty it seems.

but not what matters, apparently

[Disciprine Come From Within]

It's hard for me to personally review Arelith. It's an experience I've personally put way too much time into, over different characters, mindsets, and inbetween several years. But, the longer I've played the game, the more one single problem seems to shine.

People really want to keep a status quo in a game that revolves better around drama and conflict. And that status quo is often kept up with an IC superiority complex that bleeds so OOC that it just makes me sick to observe. What's worse, while a little more uncommon now because I suspect some DMs got the stick out, I was starting to hear people ICly talking about killing people every RL day until they stopped playing their character. Not with those exact words, but nuanced enough that you got the gist that the goal was not to create conflict in a positive experience for storytelling, but to actually make people not want to play their characters (and maybe the game.)

The forums and discord behavior bleeds into the game experience even if you don't pay attention to it. And it's not too uncommon to catch characters that seem to have this strange mindset that dungeon experiences don't count for RP in the same way that player conflicts do. Everything is an RP experience and while I can admit player to player experience can be more rewarding, it's destructive to throw away other experiences that were also enjoyable because they don't meet certain definitions. This is what leads to "All RP starts at 30," or social experiences where I get the feeling some people would go out and do dungeons more except they don't have the best build and you can spot the forums and discord going "Lol, dungeons are easy mode, if you die to them, you dun know how to paly, n00b." So, they don't play in groups for that experience because it is lessened, mocked, and makes that experience not very fun, especially when it's coupled with monster mechanics that don't make sense, ridiculous saving throws that make a DC caster feel like they should have played something else, and certain mechanics that tread on the toes of other abilities so much that it makes epic boss fights a curb stomp if you don't have a certain class ability, or a borderline abusive mindset of the game's mechanics and dungeon encounters to reduce tension and surprise.

Plenty of us have played this too long and seen way too many things. But, when you take that knowledge, the "Find out IC" mechanics that were mostly guessing game puzzles, and the smack other players with it via their characters like they should have that information if they were a better player, or chastise them when they find it because everyone should have found it already, this cheapens the discovery experience for other people. This takes one of the best gems Arelith has and spits on it, not even out of spite, but because some people can't let others enjoy an accomplishment if other people have already done it.

We're all in the same sandbox, and just because the white dog turd was an update 3 years ago, that doesn't mean that isn't noteworthy if other people found it yesterday. Let the discovery mysteries and their accomplishments live on. Let people enjoy all the experiences that have been built up over the years. Let people actually build their RP from everything they experience rather than encourage a gate keeping strategy that only certain things matter and others don't. Create conflict that makes you want to hate people ICly while high fiving them OOCly for the enjoyable thrilling experiences of being that antagonist.

And to steal Bill and Ted and what someone else has said on these forums before. "Be Excellent to each other."

[Lady Astray]

People really want to keep a status quo in a game that revolves better around drama and conflict. And that status quo is often kept up with an IC superiority complex that bleeds so OOC that it just makes me sick to observe. What's worse, while a little more uncommon now because I suspect some DMs got the stick out, I was starting to hear people ICly talking about killing people every RL day until they stopped playing their character. Not with those exact words, but nuanced enough that you got the gist that the goal was not to create conflict in a positive experience for storytelling, but to actually make people not want to play their characters (and maybe the game.)

I've seen this kind of behavior myself and it is pretty disturbing. Basically if you do anything to piss off anyone belonging to certain cliques you're gonna have fully warded level 30 kill squads coming after you every other day until you quit playing or roll your character. Far as I know this is still happening on the server to at least one player and it sickens me.

Plenty of us have played this too long and seen way too many things. But, when you take that knowledge, the "Find out IC" mechanics that were mostly guessing game puzzles, and the smack other players with it via their characters like they should have that information if they were a better player, or chastise them when they find it because everyone should have found it already, this cheapens the discovery experience for other people. This takes one of the best gems Arelith has and spits on it, not even out of spite, but because some people can't let others enjoy an accomplishment if other people have already done it.

When I was a new player I found a certain item and asked people in discord what it did only to be told "FOIG!" So I went around IC showing the item to people and asking what it did, only to be told IC "FOIG!" Personally I think a lot (not all) of this FOIG stuff should just be put up on the wiki because people like to gatekeep certain information. You end up with situations where veteran players have an unfair advantage over newer players and the newer players can't gain said information because the veteran players keep it to themselves and don't share it with anyone outside their clique. Anything providing a mechanical advantage to players should be fully disclosed on the wiki IMO.

[Nobs]

Yeah its not fair , And thats ok.

[Subutai]

Just something to keep in mind: We do have this overarching "Be Nice" rule, which handily covers things that aren't technically breaking any other rule. If some group of fully warded level 30s is coming after your character every single day, without fail, that is very definitely something you can, and should, report to the DM team. They can investigate the issue, but only if you report it.

These are the kinds of very important things to report that can pay off in spades as far as community health goes. Players abusing game mechanics isn't great, but players abusing other players is absolutely atrocious, and if the players doing the abusing don't fear any repercussions, all we're doing is allowing their behavior to thrive.

Is this "victim blaming"? Yes. But unfortunately, just because something "shouldn't" happen, doesn't mean it won't happen. Players abuse other players on Arelith, and if it happens to you or to someone you know, and especially if you have screenshots, chat logs, or other recordings of it, and don't report the behavior to the DMs, you are, very simply, allowing that abusive behavior to flourish by shielding the perpetrators from the consequences.

[Berried]

But be aware that if you're on one team and you keep passing the ball to the other team you're supposed to be playing against, your team has every right to be miffed at you. If you say "Screw you I don't care about winning." don't be surprised when they kick you off the team. You might just be playing for fun but others might want to play competitively. Sabotaging their chance of winning for "muh narrative" will very likely earn you their contempt.

Players who value 'winning' above narrative or the well-being of fellow players would have more fun on an arena server than on Arelith. It's a persistent world; a character's victories are fundamentally impermanent and small-scale.

Sometimes your character wins, sometimes they lose. The stories that get told in the process are what make those victories and losses mean anything.