Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2901
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Wed May 08, 2019 11:37 pm

I've never been opposed to a redux. There are 400 things that I find a little unpleasant about bards, and the class is shackled and hindered by the overwhelming amazing of the bard song, and the divine synergy.

Not that there is no counterplay to the song, though. Curse song is easily removed by drinking a nice restorations pot after all.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
Tarkus the dog
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:12 am

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 am

Ork wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:30 pm
It seems to me one of the bards major hindrances in adjustment is the fact that bard song is it's strongest at L16 and lasting inspiration at L20. There's no longer any justification in going deeper into bard, especially since the cost to perform rises dramatically for no reason.

I'd be interested if there are mechanical alternatives to bard song that could be dished out similar to PDK abilities for epic level investment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-p-l8pYQH0

Image

You really can't seriously claim that there is no reason in going more than 20 bard, considering 1. You get better CL, 2. You reduce all enemy skills by 16, and increase all your ally's skills by 16 ( also giving them temp HP on top of that, and reducing the same amount for your enemies )

What does this mean?

This means that the 70 concentration warlock is much easier to concentration break now,
This means that the 70 discipline fighter is much easier, if not guaranteed , to be knocked down
God forbid someone didn't take epic skill focus: discipline ( since honestly I believe this feat is a complete waste unless you are fighting disarm characters or are playing a non-STR character ), they are completely screwed by the bard song. One weaponmaster and a knockdown feat is all it takes at this point
This also means that sneakers are easier to detect, that your spotters have an easier time detecting them, and that your 32 heal goes to a whooping 48 allowing you to essentially full-heal someone ( in a round to two rounds ) who's about to be killed. It also means that you can taunt mages, etc.
This also means that if someone tries drinking restoration to get rid of the curse song they will be pummeled by a 42 aoe sonic damage, which a bard can use 26 more times. 42 sonic damage is serious considering someone can repeatedly do it as long as you're trying to get rid off the debuffs.

Bard is absolutely the strongest class in the game, it's all there in the stats and anyone who PvPed with bard song knows what I'm talking about ( whether it is high bard or 'medium' bard it barely matters, having high bard simply guarantees you win). However, at the same time, they manage to be, in my honest opinion, the most boring class to play in any video game I've ever played. They need a complete overhaul, and a complete rework-balance wise to fit into Arelith. On top of that, perform is ridiculously annoying to gear if going above 20 bard ( which you should, there really is no reason for you not to do this. Support bard is the strongest at the moment, and those going melee bard might feel compelled of taking fighter levels - but at the grander scale I don't consider it worth it. If you are playing a bard, you want high bard song ). If it was up to me, I'd cut all of their buffs/debuffs by half and give them additional perform per level. Balance wise, at the very least, if we're talking how to make this class fun to play then that's an entirely different monster to tackle.

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu May 09, 2019 12:24 am

Nit-picking aside, I feel like this was already addressed, Tarkus. Sure, it does well in parties. That's not really the concern. It's how the mechanics operate counter-intuitively. It's a CHA based spell-casting class, whose meta focuses on not using those spells. Counter-intuitive. That's really all there is to it.

If HAKs were to add new/additional spells that reward one for focusing on the spell-casting, that'd be dope.

Also I feel like, at this point, it's been pointed out how broken Paladin and Blackguard are when a CHA class dips them, so many times, that I have zero doubt re-works are in the works for these two. I've enough faith in the Dev team to make the right call.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Ork » Thu May 09, 2019 12:33 am

A bard 25 or 30 is really a not something I'd consider good. You rely entirely on your party members to shore up your abysmal HP, terrible AC, and underwhelming AB. While, yes certainly a L25, 27 or 30 bard would be a great addition in mass PVP, they're legitimately one mage away from dead. Unless you're taking abjur focus and damage reduc, I don't really see the survivability here.

I'm not saying they're not good, but a 20/6/4 is really able to stand on its own two legs, and still provide amazing buffs/hexes in battle.

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2901
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Thu May 09, 2019 2:33 am

It offends me painfully that I have to say that Tarkus is... not wrong.
Bards are not fun to play. They are incredibly powerful, yes, but they just are Not. Fun. To. Play.

For reasons I've been barking for literally more than a year already.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Sockss » Thu May 09, 2019 7:08 am

Bards are my favourite class, they're very fun to play and there are several ways to build them. Divine dips are strong but they have greater wind up, so there is still value in doing something else.

Bard's can provide highest effective AB given your curse/taunt, while also being the best debuffers and buffers and that's before you even touch on their great ac (just with song) and the best access to class skills. Or before you touch on their spells, which yes, are usually used for pve content because of the popular builds have low cl.

However, that is not a failure of bard as a class, that's a failure of the specific build you're running.

My pure bard I'm running ends up at 60 ac (ie but without curse song modifier), effective 47 ab (post song and taunt with only a maxed str mod on gear, you can assume at least another 4 from a weapon), 630 hp, 9 edr (iirc) and you can gear switch and self song to hit the 100 perform cap.

How is that not survivable?

Granted weaknesses are you don't put out much damage but hell you're still a huge threat with 2 buttons.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

User avatar
Disciprine Come From Within
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Disciprine Come From Within » Thu May 09, 2019 8:35 am

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:07 am
Bard is absolutely the strongest class in the game, it's all there in the stats and anyone who PvPed with bard song knows what I'm talking about ( whether it is high bard or 'medium' bard it barely matters, having high bard simply guarantees you win). However, at the same time, they manage to be, in my honest opinion, the most boring class to play in any video game I've ever played.
I'm sorry. What?

You think Bard is the strongest class in the game. Don't get me wrong. Divine dip is critically powerful in a Bard and the damaged/AC gained more than makes up for the longer wind up, but barring that, Bard in most of it's other forms is basically a buff/debuff tank with good aggro control and mediocre damage. Usually it's hp is pathetic and it's easy pickings for alternative damage destruction, 16-20 variants are dispel bait that get used to losing their buffs constantly, and as you said, they're usually typecast into an RP style most people find boring.

Bards don't even get remotely interesting with their abilities until at least level 12, and by then you've got magic users with elementals, better control spells, and some early death magic on one side. And on the other, you're still getting outclassed by melee types in damage and hp and relying on Improved Expertise and Taunt to do most of your setup work.

Yes, Bard past 15 gets to be very very nice, but compared to the abilities of most other classes, it's not really that amazing. It's got a great skill pool to work with, the fact Perform is also the best disguise skill means you're the best infiltrator, and free lore means you're great with languages, while monks sit on that throne with you. But, you're still a d6 hitdie, a decent, but underwhelming spellbook that's only going to be used mostly for self buffs, and if you didn't choose to invest in strength and function as the buffer/debuffer tank, and divine dip, then you're probably going to have almost no damage potential and require parties to do everything.

Everyone loves Perform and Bardsong, and when I play my bards, I have a blast. I know their strengths and weaknesses. They are powerful, very powerful when built right. But bard, especially mostly bard, without that divine dip, is not near the realm of power as many other builds. If the divine dip is considered to be that much of a problem, maybe some alteration to those bonuses may be a good idea down the line. I know many servers that controlled Divine Might/Divine Shield to encourage primary Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard investment for it's power.

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Ork » Thu May 09, 2019 8:50 am

Ork wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:33 am
Unless you're taking abjur focus and damage reduc, I don't really see the survivability here.
I hate to quote myself here socks, but I mentioned that survivability relies on your edr & investment in high CON. Investing in such a way usually means low STR (by at least 1 or 2 mod) and the sacrifice of a lot of epic feats. Epic bard feats are severely limiting and it's a shame. Again it means there's really 2 ways to play a bard. High bard song means CON focus and 20/6/4 means divine-dip. Of those choices, I'd rank divine dip higher as their damage is superior, AC amazing, HP fair and generally a much more enjoyable experience than high bard song focus.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Sockss » Thu May 09, 2019 9:09 am

You can survive okay with less hp, it's a trade off.

What I'm trying to show is that there are a lot of ways to build bards. These ways may have one or more weaknesses or not use some of the bards kit at all / to full effect but that is your specific build rather than the class.

Some have low damage, some have low hp, some have low cl, some have (relatively) low ac / ab.

These aren't specific flaws with bards, it's a flaw with a specific build and bards probably gave the highest number of viable builds of any class.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

User avatar
Seekeepeek
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:44 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Seekeepeek » Thu May 09, 2019 11:45 am

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956

Bard is pretty high up there % wise. Hell i even have 2 bards my self.. (with more the 3 bard lvls), and they are nothing alike.

I think i had more bards on this server then any other class... that is.. characters i wanted to keep.

could be cool if bards had a bonus to perform depending on how many bards you had in a party much alike the goblin race and wisdom.

if haks also add guitars, violins and other instruments for bards.. you could make a band. it would be amusing if a gang of bards could set off fireworks or play special songs depending on how many bards was around.

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2901
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Iceborn » Thu May 09, 2019 1:17 pm

I wrote a massive rant answer here. And now it's gone.
I applaud you Socks for having fun with your bard, but the one I built - which is not a weak bard, I'd say it's a mildly strong character- is not precisely the epitome of fun. Not when I have direct experiences as clerics and spellswords to compare it with, and remember those characters being fun mechanically, being enjoyable.

Am I wrong for wanting to play a bard as more than a boombox with one smiley and one frowny button?
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Astral
Posts: 1229
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Astral » Thu May 09, 2019 2:11 pm

I agree that bards should be vulnerable to dispels to some degree (like things are now, I guess) because of how powerful they would be if they could go for divine dip or wm bards with 20 bard lvls and NOT be vulnerable to dispels. So I'm against the suggestion to increase their Cl vs dispels because bard/curse song is the most powerful buff/debuff in the game. I really think once the ASF update goes live bards of many builds are going to be in a very good spot in the meta. Maybe we'll see 20bard 7wm 3fighter being played again. Its always been my personal favorite.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

magistrasa
Posts: 667
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by magistrasa » Thu May 09, 2019 2:22 pm

The fact that the Divine dip gets brought up so often as a reason not to change classes, or a reason why classes are "really good if you just build them right" - that being code for dipping pally/BG, I guess? - says to me that the potency of Divine Might & Shield really need to be reexamined. My personal opinion is that their bonuses should be capped based on Paladin/BG/CoT/Cleric levels... but I realize maybe we shouldn't get into that on a thread that's supposed to be about bards.

The first thing I think of when I hear about bard song nerfs is the fact that it may make it impossible to lockpick quarters. That makes me sad.

× Career Sharran × MILF Supreme × Artist (Allegedly) ×
Will Trade Art For Groceries Again Eventually


User avatar
Jack Oat
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:46 am
Location: The Slanty Shanty

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Jack Oat » Thu May 09, 2019 3:31 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 2:22 pm
mmmmmdivinemightshieldbadmmmmmmm
Stop.

Before you post, ask yourself: "Is this relevant to the title of the thread?"

If the answer is yes, continue.

If the answer is no, make a different/relevant thread and post it there.

Forum etiquette. It's simple stuff.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


User avatar
Opustus
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Opustus » Thu May 09, 2019 4:02 pm

Topic: Bard

Video: Pertinent

You twose: goobs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... _zzJiWJQ08
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu May 09, 2019 4:11 pm

Says the one postin' a trolley video.

ANYWAYS

Magistrasa is right. I said the same thing.

Like Magi specifically said, if bardsong were to be nerfed, it'd best be somewhere on the AB/AC/DAM side of things, otherwise its messes with the entire lock DC meta. Doesn't necessarily prohibit changes, but it definitely implies some extra work.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

User avatar
Sockss
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Sockss » Thu May 09, 2019 5:43 pm

Iceborn wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:17 pm
Am I wrong for wanting to play a bard as more than a boombox with one smiley and one frowny button?
You should be using taunt, for three buttons, exp and ie for 5, at minimum. (Then all your umd, like wof, ts, gr resto and pots/wands)

But if you want more buttons, if that's how you value enjoyment in a class for whatever reason - in not judging, I'd suggest building a different bard. If you like pushing buttons try a pdk one.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by strong yeet » Thu May 09, 2019 8:06 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:31 pm
Forum etiquette. It's simple stuff.
You'd think, wouldn't you?


also please do not buff bards

User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2488
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Ork » Thu May 09, 2019 10:29 pm

I'd be open to bard song mechanic change, I don't know if I'd be down for a nerf by itself. The class is unattractive based on both the roleplay connotations of "bard" (even though bards can be more more open & liberal than man that sings sweet song), and the linear playstyle. There's not really a niche of rp that a bard can carve out unlike wizards, druids and clerics. It's pretty ambiguous, and also reliant on others for your more dedicated builds.

It'd be nice if bards got some love in developing more meaningful and fun mechanics that affect our game beyond the dancing notes above their heads. However, I think our discussions here have really helped flesh out alternatives to the 20/6/4, so thank you!

Harkath
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:40 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Harkath » Thu May 09, 2019 11:38 pm

Collectable song 'streams' that can be found in the game would be cool, and open up a little versatility, maybe.

User avatar
Tarkus the dog
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:12 am

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri May 10, 2019 2:22 am

When I said bards are the strongest I wasn't referring to them being strong on their own. What I mean is, and I don't think I need to explain why having an ability to increase every friendly target's AC by 5 to 7, their AB by 2, damage by 3, saves by 2 or 3, skills by 8 to 19 and also the ability to reduce the same amount for your enemies is single handedly the second strongest thing in NWN as a whole ( timestop being the first ). Since timestop is on a cooldown on Arelith, bard song/curse song comes first.

There is a small catch, or a requirement, that is easy to fulfill - and that is that you need an ally, or an enemy. Bard song given to a bard alone isn't what makes the bard powerful, again, I repeat ( although it certainly does make them quite strong ), bard song having an AoE effect that can cumulatively add up to an infinite amount of AC, damage, and other buffs I mentioned ( depending on how many allies you have ) is what makes it ridiculously powerful.

62AC, 48AB weaponmaster (a standard build) gets a whoping 67 to 69 AC and 50 AB, 3 more damage ( which is 9 more damage on criticals, a huge buff in my book ), their saves are also increased. They also get an often overlooked temp HP as well.

On top of that, an enemy weaponmaster's AC goes to 57 or 55 ( and can be, as it should be, reduced further by 6 with Taunt skill that every bard should have ) thus dropping their AC to 51 and 49 ( this is in improved expertise whilst hasted ) and their AB is 46 ( that is one epic weapon focus feats, or four greater strength feats, or two epic prowess feats ). This is another reason why you want to go high bard, so that you can reduce the enemy's concentration enough to guarantee a successful Taunt check.

This is just one example on a class with mediocre AC, DEX characters who hit around 68 ish AC are just as equally Snuggle a Bugbear when hit by curse song, and a dex character who barely deals any damage to begin with are just as equally buffed with bard song.

This is what makes bard the strongest class in the game. You could argue that it's simply my opinion, but when you look at statistics and compare it to other classes they quickly fade in comparison. Recently there has been an argument on why druids should be nerfed. Give me a good bard and the druid instantly becomes no threat at all. This applies to anything. Palemaster, clerics, paladins.

Again, going back to my main point -- I don't think bards should be nerfed to the ground despite of the insane strength they have simply because players on Arelith don't most of the classes on the server to it's full potential. We're a roleplaying server after all. You also have people arguing that 20 bard is all you need and no more in a server where you can buy Mord's scrolls in every fifth player shop and where people can gear discipline, as if to further prove my point of how far under the radar classes like bard can go. But I don't think they should be given any buffs either, more importantly. The class needs a rework for the reasons I already mentioned. When I say that bards are not fun to play I am speaking from the PvE perspective. Good bard builds can easily hit from 550 to over 600 HP so their survivability is absolutely there. You don't need AB to be useful in a PvP. There are million different ways to ruin someone's day in a PvP scenario. You can do dumb stuff like spam Mord scrolls, spam Word of Faith, and god forbid someone actually decides to focus you there's the wounding whispers button. Aren't you glad you almost killed that guy? Here comes a bard to spam mass heal scrolls on him and undo everything you just did. I don't find them fun in PvE though, and that's simply my preference as a small-brain retard who enjoys seeing big numbers when playing melee characters. But I do think that they deserve a good quality of life change to make them more enjoyable not only for those who are playing the class, but also the enemies they encounter -- and for the most part as a weaponmaster player who will gladly accept a bard over anything else in my party I don't care that greatly about the class in the first place unless people start asking it to be buffed. I argue that you are very similar to a mage or a cleric when playing a bard, and this is not something that I find fun in PvE.

Edit: Also, I've seen some people bring divine dips into the account when discussing bards. I actually couldn't careless about the divine dip and don't take into consideration, despite of it's ability to give the caster temporary AC/damage and permanent saves ( and don't forget the fear immunity! ) it's so minimal in comparison to everything else bard has in storage.

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri May 10, 2019 6:47 pm

Having read that, I'm tempted to say most everyone is on the same page.

You say rework, while others discuss nerfing one area in order to justify buffing another area. I daresay that qualifies as a rework, but im also not entirely sure since you dont give any examples/suggestions, Tarkus.

A potential route might be combat modes that create auras? Making it a combat mode means you could only use one at a time, so no combo stacking, and the aura means you dont have to spam it repeatedly. Just stand in range. Might be cool to see instruments play a role with this too, increasing the range of said aura.

Then like folks have mentioned, sneak some new lore centric ruins or crypts to explore around the module, to unlock different varieties.

All of this of course accompanied by totally axing how current Song works. Just be rid of it entirely. But introduce similar effects via song aura. Hell, you could make perform skill be the qualifier for learning said new songs, keeping the skill relevant.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Peppermint » Fri May 10, 2019 8:21 pm

Even an ASF reduction is a direct buff to divine bards.

Chainmail of the Holy Knight supplants Templar Armor/Adamantine Full Plate as best in slot (assuming a divine dip). Setting that aside, you have options like Masterly Even Chain, which still net the same AC as adamantine full plate but now yield 0% ASF casting to boot.

So let's say you decide this is a very bad idea (tm), and you're going just going to nerf medium armors across the board, the consequences for other armored classes be damned.

Great.

Now our best option becomes the Adamantine Chain Shirt if we want full spellcasting. This is at least a step down from other options in terms of raw AC. "A-ha!" you might say. "I've resolved the problem. ASF reduction requires an actual trade off for bards now!"

Well, sort of. Here's what you've done:

1. Removed medium armor from other classes as a viable option.
2. Given divine bards 0% ASF medium armor as an option. Divine bards can now run full plate in areas with attackers with high AC (for better tanking), and chain shirt in areas with attackers with low AB (for better support).

Net result: medium armor nerfed for non-bard classes, divine bards made more flexible (net buff), exclusively medium armor bards still inferior to heavily armored bards for tanking. On the bright side, said medium-armored bards no longer incur 5% ASF from greensteel. So. Mission success, I guess?

Please don't buff bards. Look, I also feel the class could use some tweaks. And options to make bards more viable as spellcasters would be cool! But class rebalancing is often a matter of give and take.

Let's put it another way. Do you remember when arcane casters were given 3/4 BAB across the board? That was terrible, right? It was a band-aid solution to facilitate spellswords; it didn't work, because making spellswords viable would have also ruined the balance of traditional spellcasters--unless something was taken from them. When that change was then reverted and the spellsword path was introduced, with clear strengths and weaknesses, it worked much better.

The same is true here. You can go for the quick solution or you can put in real work and turn out something that will make an actual difference. You don't have to make a new path, but you do have to add more than a band-aid fix. Kirito did great work with spellswords. I challenge you to do the same for bards.
Last edited by Peppermint on Fri May 10, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri May 10, 2019 8:28 pm

I think you're also on the same page as everyone else. Everybody is in agreement that paladin and bg need to be adjusted. Tis a seperate issue i suppose though.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

User avatar
Opustus
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:07 pm

Re: Buff Bard: CL vs. Dispel & ASF Reduction

Post by Opustus » Fri May 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Do we know what the ASF reduction for bards will be? It might be just -10% so they can use greensteel chains, large shields and leather armor, right?
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

Post Reply