Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

[Dagonlives]

The belt having a player's name on it was a good idea. How about we also make sure that when players fight the matches, they have to do so undisguised so it goes on the heralds.. How else would they get a belt with their name on it in the first place.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

Post edited because I was too snarky about this topic. I apologize.

The Underdark Pit Fighting is one of the many wonderful examples of area influences to guide character interactions. Not just the mechanical side but also the RP side of participating in the blood sport can be a blast. People will abuse that because it has some nice treasures and I think the numbers game has been learned so that people that want to cheese it, can cheese it. I don't think that makes the experience anything less when it's done with the spirit it provides.

That being said, my latest experiences with Andunor and it's pit fighting system have moved less and less to inclusive interesting developmental roleplay. The bad guy aspect of it is thrown about like it should be a reputation hit when most of the creatures act like glorified slave gladiators that enjoy the experience with the only exception being Hijo when he wins. Sure, it's brutal, bloody, and isn't a good thing to participate in. But, since the slaves get auto raised when they are defeated and generally seem to want to fight, are monsters (or a golem), and the bigger loss is in the PC defeat, including mockery criers, I don't see how the attempts to shun people doing it wrong work well when I've witnessed pushes for other people to judge who is doing it right or wrong without even meeting some characters.

This, on top of the fact Andunor can be very noninclusive to newcomers in RP and in many instances can lead to a quick high authority saying "Go, and if I see you again, you're dead on sight here" if they aren't an obvious monster/outcast makes the neutral part of this neutral evil trade hub kind of a bummer for discovering when you don't start there and actually encourages more disguise use rather than open enjoyment of it's depravities. I guess I'd rather see more carrot than a stick. It's a fun experience for people to see just how depraved they can be for the sport of combat and I'd rather see that embraced in a positive direction with RP consequences for RP actions rather than something that's trying to punish someone for participating in a fun experience in this game.

[Royal Blood]

I think the repercussions are up to the players. I think it's reasonable as a good aligned race to question why someone would venture to Andunor to slaughter slaves, even if the slaves are monster creatures. Still, I could also understand, even if you are good, not caring at all. They're monsters, monsters are killed constantly.


Being undisguised might be reasonable, then again with the belt thing I'd see it like, if no one knows you, you're just some person in a hood. They ask hey what name do you want on the belt? You say whatever, they don't question it because you just killed a legendary monster named 'the Beast'

[Dreams]

A lot of good-aligned characters seem to care very little about killing their own kind, let alone enslaved monsters and things in the underdark.

[Ork]

It could be nice if the first fight was to execute a rebellious slave human that clearly has no hope of winning & will not be revived. Or multiple slaves.

[CosmicOrderV]

I think there's a few parts to this topic, but on one hand, the belt was a great idea.

I think having criers shout the character's actual name might be a cool idea too, though perhaps not entirely necessary.

The gold winnings decrease was a change I'm not super sure about. Having it lessened wasn't a bad idea, but a stiff 500 seems sharp.

I think what it really boils down to is the lack of culture being perpetuated IC. The notion that it's not as bad because the slaves get resurrected is a complete fallacy. Tragic deaths are already well known in the universe to create abominations, usually of the undead variety. Imagine now, instead of a creature's accumulated negative energies passing on, and dispersing through whatever cosmic channels things these operate through... they just became a constant generator of negative energy. Constantly dying in horrific ways, against their will, to be brought back again and repeat the process. This would screw with their mind immensely and surely poison all but the most dedicated and righteous slaves, with negative energy. If any of those cage fight slaves were to actually die for an extended period of time, Andunor would have the worst undead problem it's ever seen. And I mean, I dunno, maybe the Yuan-Ti cleric that tends to them also offers some sort of counseling to ease their troubled minds? It's a Yuan-Ti though, I dunno if I buy that. She might at least try to cleanse the area of latent negative energy, perhaps as part of her job, but I don't see much more than that.

I think the issue here is more so that if such a world as Arelith, and D&D, were real? This would be the sort of thing that's (even if not intimately understood) generally warned against because people know it has a tendency to end poorly, and corrupts the world in the process.

I imagine the DM's have tools at their disposal to see who is engaging in the pit fights. All in all, the proper approach seems strikes me as personal reprimands for those whose character class concepts (things like druid), or alignment, run counter to the above understanding. Create some sort of token that removes spell-casting with some fancy text. Have them lose access to divine spells for a day. Change their alignment. Give a RPR decrease. Act as a mechanical force to stimulate in-character cosmic forces and consequence.

Edit: Thinking more on it, there's actually some planar consideration as well. Being pushed to the edge of desperation for something like the power to survive your lot in life as a cage fighter, very possibly might be the sort of screwed up situation that entices one to consort with/be tempted by fiends. Those with corrupt souls who find their lives at an end, also can come back as low tier demons or devils. And sure, while the process of advancement is vague and long term, technically speaking a tenacious enough soul--like maybe one of those slaves constantly fighting for their life--might eventually make it big time as a fiend bitter against the world that tormented them day in and day out. All this to say, even if it's not undead, the souls of these Cage Fight Slave could eventually become the demons and devils of tomorrow. Definitely not something good to have played a part in, bearing some of the responsibility.

This is the sort of stuff the morally inclined ought to be considering when they partake in cage fights.

[Iceborn]

You can't have repercussions if nobody knows that you ever did it.

I am entirely on board with the Cage having a high-bluff/Perform check.
Why a disguise check?
Because the characters that can disguise and pass for another person, have entirely the right to use that skill.
And those that don't, only need to drop the disguise if they want to participate in the fight, no matter if they "should" be having that fight.

[Jack Oat]

I like this idea. Let's make it so you can't get the +2 STR/+5 Disc/+5 Intimidate/Luck of Heroes/Epic Reputation belt unless you're an Underdarker. Yeah, let's give Underdark races even more bonuses! Next I think we should just give UD characters a property on their player badge that, when they use it on a Surface race character, just instantly kills them.

No.

[The GrumpyCat]

For what it's worth I would like:

Disguise not to work, or at least have a VERY high check, in reguards town criars yelling out victories in the Cage

There to be a Surface (Maybe Sibiyad?) version of the cage, with different sorts of enemies, but a comparable reward.

Underdark Cage can only be used by outcast/monsteriuos races and Andunor Slaves

Surface Arena (if it was implimented) to only work for surface races and Sibiyad/Sencliff slaves

If you're a slave, you can only do one, obviously (e.g. if your slave character did the Andunor cage, they can't loose their collar, gain a Sibiyad slave collar, and do the surface one.)

Finally I do kinda like the idea that the very first enemy you fight in the cage is some helpless slave, or paladin, or something where it's pretty obvious killing them is a morally shady act.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

For what it's worth I would like:

Disguise not to work, or at least have a VERY high check, in reguards town criars yelling out victories in the Cage

There to be a Surface (Maybe Sibiyad?) version of the cage, with different sorts of enemies, but a comparable reward.

Underdark Cage can only be used by outcast/monsteriuos races and Andunor Slaves

Surface Arena (if it was implimented) to only work for surface races and Sibiyad/Sencliff slaves

If you're a slave, you can only do one, obviously (e.g. if your slave character did the Andunor cage, they can't loose their collar, gain a Sibiyad slave collar, and do the surface one.)

Finally I do kinda like the idea that the very first enemy you fight in the cage is some helpless slave, or paladin, or something where it's pretty obvious killing them is a morally shady act.

+1

[Shadowy Reality]

I agree that the Underdark should not be given more mechanical perks than the Surface, but the thread has merit on the grounds of Roleplay. Creating a surface equivalent does not entirely solve the issue, no Good character would still kill Evil beings forced to fight for the sake of entertainment and wealth.

Anyone willingly stepping into the Cage is committing an Evil act. They are slaves, forced to fight. And you are willingly killing them for the entertainment of the masses, reputation and wealth. Even if they apparently have accepted their fate, it is still a VERY evil action. Willingly doing Evil actions shouldn't only be up to players to react to. Paladins should automatically lose their levels and be forced to atone to gain them back, for instance.

This mentality of Mechanics over Roleplay has been prevalent for years. If you look at the optimal builds most of them have a Wisdom and Charisma score of 8. How many players do you see roleplaying a socially inept, aloof character? Exactly, not that many. It seems to have become accepted to shun certain aspects of Roleplay for the sake of mechanical optimality, this is wrong.

It is not only up to the players to react and push consequences on these people, it is also up to the DMs and team to crack down on this, both in cases of Cage and Stats, because you are not Roleplaying your sheet.

[Chair]

Though, I forsee the Arena being much less of a social activity with the betting limit changes to a hard 500 gold on every level of the fight.

[The GrumpyCat]

The problem presented reguarding alignment is this:

1) Making an automatic alignment shift if you fight the cage can be abused (e.g. allowing evil paladins)
2) Making it alignment locked could be metagamed, and is a block to rp. ('We saw your surfacer character fight such and such, that means they MUST be evil) and also IMO gives a bit of a too strong mechanical boost to evil characters.
3) We could enforce it, but that would put a lot of extra work on us, and would have to be judged on a case by case basis, and would bring in a lot of bad feeling no doubt. There's a reason we're very careful about alignment shifts.

Alignment locking of all of these is probably the least problematic, but I think allowing it to be monster/surfacer locked is probably just the cleanest answer.

Also I'm tryping this under heavy amounts of sleep deprivation, so if I sound argumentative/bothersome/rude at all, I really do apologise.

[Kuma]

Though, I forsee the Arena being much less of a social activity with the betting limit changes to a hard 500 gold on every level of the fight.

lmao what

what even is the point now

It could be nice if the first fight was to execute a rebellious slave human that clearly has no hope of winning & will not be revived. Or multiple slaves.

this would be absolutely IDEAL

[Chair]

For the person doing the fight? The point is the Belt + Luck of heroes/Epic Reputation. But anyone else its the betting. Now the betting is gone making it another boring solo waitfest that no one will want to even participate in as there is no incentive or support to do so anymore.

[Nitro]

I'm quite curious why the betting was axed. It's the prize money from beating the beast that's really substantial, the betting cash was just nice if you were sticking around to bet on at least one person going through all the fights, and only became a lot if you had several people go through all the fights.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

The Andunorian cage fights have you killing other sentient beings for the viewing amusement, and betting enjoyment of watchers. You do it for no reason other then coin, and status, and after you win, you watch as they are raised so they can be continue to be debased, and exploited in that fashion by others. And then you do it again. And again. And again, until you get the belt. There is a high level of mental gymnastics at play if someone does not think what they are doing is evil, and immoral.

[Xerah]

Well, the Arcane tower could just do something similar with illusions and you've got your option for a good PC.

It's still a downright shame that there is such an extreme mechanical benefit for doing this. When everything is balanced, these little bonuses become extremely significant that they shouldn't even exist.

I am shocked by how many people are defending the existence of the betting. It made getting gold as a new UD PC very trivial to start.

[Lunargent]

I am shocked by how many people are defending the existence of the betting. It made getting gold as a new UD PC very trivial to start.

Sure but as someone that was new to the UD, I was floored by just how many people of different descriptions showed up for it. Sometimes I met new people that I might not have otherwise, sometimes there was conflict. It was always interesting, and almost always RP was created. Now I will be surprised if anyone shows up at all and a social event disappears from the server.

[Xerah]

People will come to anything if there is a huge mechanical benefit. If Mister Gnome Wizard showed up and gave random artifacts out depending on the number of people around, the entire server would be there.

[Ork]

The issue with the betting was simply that it was a sure thing. You could place your money down and know with confidence you'd get it back. The first five fights are cake, and most people delay the arena til later.

Maybe we should have the fights be tied to level, and if you didn't get in the first fight at L5, you can progress to any others. That would effectively cut off all surface characters unless they were ferried by UD friends.

[Lunargent]

People will come to anything if there is a huge mechanical benefit. If Mister Gnome Wizard showed up and gave random artifacts out depending on the number of people around, the entire server would be there.

Is there something wrong with that? Is there something wrong with people coming together, even if it's to get (Good Thing)? Events like that make stuff happen. It's interesting.

[Durvayas]

Very simply, have one of the first fights be some kind of terrified slave that stands zero chance, that begs for his/her life when the cage door is opened.
Then, replace the beast with a captured Astral Deva.

No amount of mental gymnastics can possibly justify a good character slaughtering an angel for sport. None.

Furthermore, any PC with paladin levels doing ANY of the pit fights should trigger a notification being sent to the DMs for review of their alignment. I can see a paladin being forced to kill slaves as a matter of being captured and broken by their sinister masters. I can't see a paladin going in willingly to do so. Its silly, its cheese, it should have serious reprecussions, end of story.

[Beard Master Flex]

Regardless of the mechanical benefits; I will say that I found the crowds and drama surrounding the cage fighting (even if most were just drawn because of the money) to be one of the coolest encounters during my time in the UD.

I mean all characters end up with hundreds of thousands of gold anyway just from writs during their levelling career it seems like a worthy trade on the odd chance some cool RP develops vs some people making a few hundred thousand off bets (which can only be done once a character)

I’d rather see a dispel cast on the fighter and a more unpredictable/evolving roster so there is always an element of risk or a gimmick to be discovered to defeat the foe. Even for level 30s.

And I never felt like participating in the cage fights was anywhere near approaching an evil act. Anecdotally my Outcast character was forced to fight and earn money for some thugs/powerful figures or die. Not any different then the slaves themselves... that’d be like saying Russel Crow’s Maximus Aurelius was an evil dude simply because he didn’t roll over and did once he was captured.

[Cortex]

Dispels on the fighter could make it so only a few builds can utilize the cage to its maximum potential.