Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat May 18, 2019 11:40 am

The "that's your opinion" defense is a little disheartening to read. This is the 21st century and people are still trying to discount conversations seeking truth, as preference.
Yeah but, on this topic, it absolutly IS a matter of opinion in many ways.
But Alignment in Forgotten Realmns is Objective, not Subjective!
That is so, but the problem is that Alignment is juded by us, the DMs, and we will judge it in a subjective manner because well, IRL it IS subjective. Again, see this.
A single DM running a single campaign with a single party can make pretty easy decisions one what's good and what's evil, or what's lawful and what's chaotic, but on a server like Arelith, which is necessarily much more like the real world due to its large population and uncontrolled storyline and direction, alignment becomes extremely gray extremely quickly, and defining actions as being solely at one point or another point on the alignment spectrum almost always requires those actions to be oversimplified and stripped of all complexity and nuance.
This really puts across the problem with alignment on this server and why worrying over the nitty gritty is basically pointless, and frankly when it comes to this topic you'll find that actions out of alignment are more likely to be represented by RPR rating than anything else.
This too shall pass.

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun May 19, 2019 6:36 pm

Well let me tell you from a personal experience that there are repercussions for attending, you just need to find the right characters to interact with.

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by WJLIII3 » Mon May 20, 2019 2:28 am

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing I should mention in a thread here? If I'm messing with FOIG business by all means, please delete my post and all that, but...I feel like there's something fairly critical to this discussion that a lot of people are missing the full information on:

Characters with the Slave origin, in order to become free and remove their clamp, are told that they MUST fight in the Cage, in order to get revenge on behalf of all slaves, because the pit fighters work as torturers of the common slaves. I feel like that is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not someone who fought in the cage should be treated as evil, ESPECAILLY if they should recieve alignment penalties perforce...the most ntoed marker of good/evil on the server (slave-taking/slave-freeing) literally requires cage fighting for the slave to get free. Because the cage slaves are so vicious and evil the slave-freeing guild wants them to die over and over.

Also, outing a Shadow Mage by their lack of evocation is totally legit, lorewise. The Shadow Weave is a false Weave. It feeds off the real weave, and it cannot create matter and energy out of thin air. Only Mystra's Weave can Evoke, creating substance out of nothing. Shar cannot create something, she can only change things that already are, because she is the antithesis of creation.

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Nevrus » Mon May 20, 2019 3:11 am

My biggest confusion about this entire debate is... What is the layman perspective?

We have layman perspectives that are enforced on a whooooole bunch of other stuff. Warlocks, monstrous races, outcasts, slavery, necromancy, fiend-summoning, chromatic dragon summoning, worshipping evil deities. The list goes on.

This seems like just one more thing on the list that's worthy of some kind of official clarification. If "I summon zombies for good!" doesn't fly and "Trust me, I'm a good goblin!" are famous last words, what is the perspective on "I killed a bunch of slaves to get this belt"?

Like, we can debate the morality of it night and day, but having a magic eight-ball of "Signs point to evil" or "Signs point to neutral" would super, duper help clarifying what the ostensibly 'good' position is supposed to be. This needs to come from a staff ruling, necessarily, so that reacting to the belt negatively isn't interpreted as "picking excuses to bully my character because they don't like me." Which is... Honestly, mostly what this debate is about. "If I get that belt, and people call me a monster, are they being unreasonable?"

A 'Yes' or a 'No' will not dictate player action, but it WILL dictate player expectation, which will help everyone be on the same page and not... Making dozens of pages of threads asking for clarification.

Please, staff, this one REALLY needs some kind of communicated expectation, just so this stops.
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon May 20, 2019 6:55 am

These are the descriptions of Good, Evil, and Neutrality, on the moral Axis, as well as Law, Chaos, and Neutrality on the ethical axis- from the core rules of the game. Emphasis on important points to remember is mine.
Alignment

A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.

Alignment is a tool for developing your character’s identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.

Good Vs. Evil

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.
Law Vs. Chaos

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful-chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.
The points of emphasis I've included are to point out that-

1: Morality is absolutely objective, although it is incredibly common for Neutral-aligned characters to try to live a life that attempts a subjective morality.

2: Objectively evil acts can be and are defined by the core rules, and in the case of paladins specifically, any such act should be shied away from, or be part of the RP of falling from grace.

3: Besides paladins, most characters can be expected to occasionally perform actions outside of their general alignment inclination, generally because of subjective reasons. This is normal, and okay.

4: Based on these definitions for Neutral, I'd loosely guess that well over half of Arelith's characters are True Neutral and don't know it.

The vaguest part of this objective state of morality, really, is what constitutes INNOCENT life?

Generally, in this kind of game, monsters are considered an exception to the innocent life rule. On the other hand, another human trying to gut you like a fish to take your coin purse is still a human- but they certainly aren't innocent, and you're probably not going to garner any evil points if you find yourself forced to separate their head from their shoulders.

My 2 silvers.
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Durvayas » Mon May 20, 2019 5:37 pm

WJLIII3 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:28 am


Characters with the Slave origin, in order to become free and remove their clamp, are told that they MUST fight in the Cage, in order to get revenge on behalf of all slaves, because the pit fighters work as torturers of the common slaves. I feel like that is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not someone who fought in the cage should be treated as evil, ESPECAILLY if they should recieve alignment penalties perforce...the most ntoed marker of good/evil on the server (slave-taking/slave-freeing) literally requires cage fighting for the slave to get free. Because the cage slaves are so vicious and evil the slave-freeing guild wants them to die over and over.
This arguement doesn't work.

None of the cage fighters before fighting this particular fighter are not monsters.

The issue is primarily hijo, who is very clearly being held against his will, and forced to fight. He GLARES at those watching as he executes the person sent in to kill him. Fighting Hijo is an unquestionably evil act. Azer are also well known to be LN, and are very often slaves themselves, and you have to fight an Azer before getting to the beast as well.

The other major issue is that while, yes, good aligned PCs can totally be forced to fight in the cage against their will, proudly wearing the belt that they are awarded for doing so is 100% a voluntary choice.

Being forced to slaughter slaves is an evil act. Any character with a shred of a moral compass knows this. Any good aligned PC should feel shame and remorse for what they've done. Perhaps not to the monstrous slaves, but to Hijo the deep imaskari, who surely left home to explore and found himself in a cage, whose life is a living hell, and the Azer, who is kept miserably in a cold, barren cell, and dragged out only to get killed again, and again, and again. The PC is used as a tool for their torment as surely as any devil's bident.

To evil PCs, the belt is a badge of strength and power.

To good PCs, it should be a mark of shame, and at best, a reminder of what they've done. They absolutely SHOULD be ostracized for it by society at large, because they're choosing to wearing this thing with pride.
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Zeskay » Mon May 20, 2019 5:42 pm

WJLIII3 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:28 am
... in order to become free and remove their clamp, are told that they MUST fight in the Cage, in order to get revenge on behalf of all slaves, because the pit fighters work as torturers of the common slaves...
This is slightly inaccurate. A slave can earn their freedom without setting foot in the cage. It's an option, yes, but if that doesn't sit well with your character, you have alternatives. It can take significantly longer if you go that route, but you have the agency to make the choice if it makes sense for your character. Fighting is not required. Your character can justify it by saying they were trying to earn their freedom, but they also have the option to skip it and still be free, they just have to work a bit harder.

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed May 22, 2019 1:26 pm

I know I'm way late to this discussion, but I think in general, the change hasn't done anything positive.

See, I play surface characters. I have no idea what goes down in the underdark. I have no idea, ICly or OOCly, what goes into getting this belt. My character wouldn't recognize this belt if they saw it. Far as she's concerned, its just a super dorky looking local fashion trend. I have never once asked about this belt, seen anyone ask about this belt, nor has anyone included this belt meaningfully in their RP whatsoever on either side, either before or after the change.

To be frank, why is it cluttering up my divination info and my #descriptionporn?

The people that are really invested in making this thing part of their RP and story will self-include it in their description or talk about it. Right now the description blurb feels like a weird WoW achievement title for powergamers, and just as OOC.

Sorry for having a forceful opinion, it just feels like a jab in the eye every time I have to read about the stupid belt again. Not even the fault of the players that wear it, really.

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed May 22, 2019 8:04 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:26 pm
Not even the fault of the players that wear it, really.
Emphasis mine. Respectfully, I disagree entirely. You could not wear it. That's an option. Nothing is forced.

Apparently, this belt is a Big Deal. So much so that wearing it automatically gives you the epic reputation feat? Winston Churchill is a figure that might qualify for Epic Reputation. Donald Trump, or Cher. Michael Jackson, Bill Clinton, Mother Theresa, Putin, Stalin. These are the figures you are elevated alongside in the public eye when you acquire "Epic Reputation."

Most likely, wearing this belt wasn't being treated like it bestowed people with an epic reputation, and so the situation was fixed with an observable tag. I would hazard a guess that if as an overall trend people had been putting this in their description when they wore it no one would have wasted the effort on scripting it (there's a lot of other things to do).

Even if you dislike boxing, the names Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, Evander Holyfield, and Muhammed Ali probably mean something to you. If you don't like football, you probably know the names Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Terrell Owens, or Tom Brady. You might think wrestling is fake garbage, but you've probably heard the names "The Undertaker" or "John Cena" or "The Rock".

It's understandable that not every character will know about it. I applaud anyone who looks at it, goes, "nope, my character knows squat about that," and proceeds to act like it.

But for some surface-based characters who are informed, either through study or through personal experience, seeing that belt is kind of a big deal, and the only thing you have to do to not be seen with it is take it off.

I actually haven't seen that many people wear it- I think I'm standing at one encounter, presently- and the person who wore it very much wore it as the badge of strength and brutality it was... I wish I could remember that Orog's name, but I'm terrible with underdark names. v.v; The character was well-played, and the player was friendly in tells.

The belt gave me a sense of tension and put me on the edge the whole time, because my character and I understood that character would probably rip several of us in the room in half before we could breathe out of the side of our mouths if they thought they had a reason to.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu May 23, 2019 2:02 am

Also, what kind of belt can't be covered with a bathrobe? Is it made of literal fire or something?

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Seekeepeek » Thu May 23, 2019 5:40 am

i imagine the Champion belt work somewhat like this:
Image

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu May 23, 2019 10:41 am

This game is full of situations where you can get your nifty mechanical cookie, but you have to accept the roleplay that goes along with it.

Wanna play a Paladin? Sure! But you have to accept that you shouldn't be chilling out with necromancers/warlocks and snuggling demons.

Wanna play a Drow? Brill! but you have to accept that your character can't paint their face white and go snuggling on the surface with surface elves.

Wanna try out an Outcast? Nifty! But know that 'outcast' means 'cast out' not 'is super duper uber pally with absolutly everyone on the surface and underdark.'

Want to have the benefits of a really cool powerful magic item that (amongst other things) gives you epic reputation? Fantastic! But know that the reputation will come from the fact that you did the cage. Don't want that reputation? Don't wear the item that goes along with the reputaton.

It's a balence. You have to deal with the fact that your choices sometimes have consequences At least the current consequence is one that can be removed (the belt that is) and not something that's stuck with you (e.g. Outcasts.)
This too shall pass.

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by R0GUE » Thu May 23, 2019 3:47 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 5:40 am
i imagine the Champion belt work somewhat like this:
Image
Image

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu May 23, 2019 7:43 pm

And im here with mylevel goblin who deosnt even know the arena exists or where to find it both IC and OOC.

(Why i dont like suggestion about habing to start first fight at lvl 5 because im already lvl 11)

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by NauVaseline » Mon May 27, 2019 7:05 am

Chair wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:02 am
Though, I forsee the Arena being much less of a social activity with the betting limit changes to a hard 500 gold on every level of the fight.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: there goes arena fights

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Re: Andunorian Cage Should create reprecussions for attending.

Post by Durvayas » Mon May 27, 2019 6:39 pm

NauVaseline wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:05 am
Chair wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:02 am
Though, I forsee the Arena being much less of a social activity with the betting limit changes to a hard 500 gold on every level of the fight.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: there goes arena fights
I can literally hop through a portal and get 500gp, easily, without getting hit, effortlessly, in about a minute flat.

There is no longer ANY economic benefit to going to the arena fights unless the plan is to bet amongst eachother. In other words, unless people are organizing these fights so that several people intend to fight at once, and a lot of people show up together, there isn't even any incentive to go.
The issue therein is unlike PvP, the fights in the pits are very static. Most of us have a good idea if someone is going to survive or not well before the PC even steps in the ring, so there is little point to gambling amongst eachother.

It is now a catch 22. The only way to really make money on the fights is to bet, but the bets are almost guaranteed so nobody is going to bet against except maybe for hijo and joturr. The beast is a victory lap; Short of someone using curse song on a PC, I've never seen anyone ever lose to it save for the first week the arena was put in.
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