Blinding Speed and AA

[Astral]

Assassin and Shadowdancer levels now count for the reduction of Blinding Speed Cooldown. Rogue levels are -not- required for this bonus to trigger. All applicable class levels stack - this includes Rogue, Assassin, Shadowdancer, and Harper Scout.

Please consider adding Arcane Archer to the list. Reasons are this class needs some love in terms of survive ability and because it requires either arcane class or ranger to access there's no risk of perma hasted archers running around.

[CosmicOrderV]

Here's a hot-take,
What if AA levels instead granted 1 caster level, per 2 AA levels.
Then they could actually live up to the name Arcane Archer. And if someone dips enough into a class that gets something like Haste? More power to ya.

[Archnon]

A perma hasted Archer sounds like a kiting dream.

[Might-N-Magic]

Eeeh... Given the entire thematic of AA is archery based on an alternative to physical nimbleness and agility, tying Blinding Speed to it makes no sense to its themes.

[Astral]

Eeeh... Given the entire thematic of AA is archery based on an alternative to physical nimbleness and agility, tying Blinding Speed to it makes no sense to its themes.

Themes dont mean all that much when it comes to server balancing. A theme is always the inspiration that leads how classes look like but small tweaks which disregard the theme aspect are required for balance's sake.

Further more, Arelith doesnt treat arcane archers as all that much arcane. As said above, they dont give any CL to arcane casting (again, probably for balance's sake or else... bards...) and even ranger can take them without any arcane levels. So there's no discussion about theme here. Only mechanics please.

[Might-N-Magic]

Just as you can tell an entertaining story AND use proper reasoning to have it make sense, you can balance things and keep to their idiom (and should).

The ranger thing was a mistake that only came to be because the archer path didn't exist. It should have died when the path went live.

[Astral]

you can balance things and keep to their idiom (and should).

That often isnt the case, whether if you accept it or not. Many things are being written down with the spirit of the setting in the center and are being tweaked after in small notches with very little regards to the theme.

The ranger thing was a mistake that only came to be because the archer path didn't exist. It should have died when the path went live.

Actaully I'm pretty sure the archer path existed before Ranger was enabled as a base class for Arcane archer so you're wrong once again. You dont have proper facts and you simply have something against archers.

[Dreams]

Tie it to ranger instead!

[Astral]

Tie it to ranger instead!

Your idea is overpowered because Ranger is a full bab class that benefits from combining SD, rogue or assassin and you get perma-hasted rangers with max-apr. No, thank you.

[Dreams]

You're right, tie it into Rangers who take the Archer path.

[Astral]

You're right, tie it into Rangers who take the Archer path.

Giving it to rangers means you get perma-hasted archers. It's overpowered. Rangers are also a full bab class with HipS outdoors and a lot of other cookies.

I deliberately said AA in the op for those reasons. Rangers, of any kind, should not get this CD reduction.

[Dreams]

You're asking for a hasted archer here.

No class ends up perma-hasted with Blinding Speed + cooldowns.

[Astral]

You're asking for a hasted archer here.

No class ends up perma-hasted with Blinding Speed + cooldowns.

Maybe you misunderstood. I will explain.

Rogues can be perma-hasted with blinding speed if they take 30 lvls of rogue/sd/assassin in any combination. Those are all 3/4 bab classes without access to full base apr. No overpowered.

Rangers are a full bab class with many multiclassing options who allow access to 4th base apr. That's why it's overpowered to give them (even if only to archer path) such cooldown reduction.

I ask specifically to give this cooldown reduction to arcane archers because they cannot go pure, they need ranger or bard to becomes AAs, therefore, no risk of perma-hasted characters with 4 base apr. AAs will have at least 2 minutes cooldown on this feat.

[CosmicOrderV]

You have really whacky ideas of what is setting appropriate.

[Kenji]

Let’s not forget that ranger and AA can be combined. And that also means a full BAB progression along with some of the QoL Ranger Archer path brings (free feats, extra skill points, discipline dump, and free bundle).

Before this thread derail into a thread of Ranger vs AA thread (visit here for that), I’d say that AA needs another way of pushing it into a niche than allowing it to have blinding speed level synergy. Even if admittedly it’ll encourage more rogue and AA combos.

Last but not least, Ranger -> AA isn’t a bad option, at all. It may seem like a trap at first, many of my PvP experience has often been either a group vs group battle where you have casters buff your archer (which you’ll do a better job now than most of the other builds without full BAB) or a hostile encounter where there’s no time for full wind-up.

Edit: derailed the thread into Ranger vs AA anyways.

[CosmicOrderV]

Ranger archer path also gives flat damage buff, +2 for most AA's. Combined with an already high BAB, that's nothing to scoff at for a 4-5 level dip. Need some tumble? Awesome here's Shadowdancer giving you HiPS as well... which would also be adding to the cooldown reduction of Blinding Speed. Plus there's just the fact that going 4 ranger pre-epic (netting the +2 damage and archer path), then dumping your 5th post-epic, nets you a free epic feat that you can--oh look at that--use to get Blinding Speed.

Like Kenji stated, and by extension Might-N-Magic, it would be nice to see AA's be a little more well-rounded as a concept and class, but this idea is very likely not it.

[Astral]

How has this became a thread about Ranger?

No one here said rangers should get CDR on blinding speed. I believe everyone reading this would agree it would be broken because it would mean access to full bab and perma haste with combination of ranger and rogue/assassin/sd.

Arcane Archer cannot get perma haste from CDR on blinding speed because you need lvls in base class that does not get CDR on blinding speed. That's the whole point.

It's not comparison about what is better, it's about what CAN get perma-haste (and be overpowered) and what cant.

[Kenji]

Well, to summarize quickly before creating more misunderstanding, here's the general direction of the thread:

Astral: (AA Levels add to BS CDR) to help with survivability
CosmicOrderV: (CL = CL + 0.5 AA lvl) instead
Archnon: Astral's suggestion is OP
Might-n-Magic: RP Theme
Astral: Mechanics only, the thread is about balancing, RP not concerned
...
Dreams: (Ranger Levels add to BS CDR)
Astral: Dreams' suggestion is OP because Ranger is a full BAB class
...
Kenji: Ranger -> AA gets full BAB. AA itself is a full BAB class. Opinion: BS CDR is not the answer here. Also, thread derailed.
Astral: Dreams' suggestion is OP. AAs can't get permahaste, therefore not OP.

With all posts considered, if you are concerned about balancing, you must take Rangers who took archer path into account, regardless of if they are dedicated (21+) rangers or simple dips (4~7) on ranger levels.

Now, others have suggested other means of achieving more thematic appropriate tweaks, buffs, or changes to AAs.

I believe CosmicOrderV has one concerning both thematic and balancing reasons.

And I am personally asking for more suggestions other than letting AA levels add to BS CDR.

[Astral]

Well, to summarize quickly before creating more misunderstanding, here's the general direction of the thread:

Astral: (AA Levels add to BS CDR) to help with survivability
CosmicOrderV: (CL = CL + 0.5 AA lvl) instead
Archnon: Astral's suggestion is OP
Might-n-Magic: RP Theme
Astral: Mechanics only, the thread is about balancing, RP not concerned
...
Dreams: (Ranger Levels add to BS CDR)
Astral: Dreams' suggestion is OP because Ranger is a full BAB class
...
Kenji: Ranger -> AA gets full BAB. AA itself is a full BAB class. Opinion: BS CDR is not the answer here. Also, thread derailed.
Astral: Dreams' suggestion is OP. AAs can't get permahaste, therefore not OP.

With all posts considered, if you are concerned about balancing, you must take Rangers who took archer path into account, regardless of if they are dedicated (21+) rangers or simple dips (4~7) on ranger levels.

Now, others have suggested other means of achieving more thematic appropriate tweaks, buffs, or changes to AAs.

I believe CosmicOrderV has one concerning both thematic and balancing reasons.

And I am personally asking for more suggestions other than letting AA levels add to BS CDR.

You missed the most important part where while both AA and ranger are full bab class, ranger can easily get perma-hasted from BS CDR while AA has no access to that perma-haste. That is the most fundamental part in my argument that I said 3-4 times now repeatedly.

As for more ideas on how to make AA better? I dont think they need buffs to their offense or their AC, personally. I think assembly templates (with recent buffs considered) make arrows which get you to 40+ damage before crit which is quite balanced.

I simply think they need some survive ability QoL buffs and it makes perfect sense to me and not overpowered to give them CDR on BS for that reason. Please leave rangers to another thread, thank you.

[Baseili]

Giving arcane archers the cooldown reduction shared by the stealth classes would be considerably overpowered.

Assuming the same rules apply (1 turn cooldown reduction per 6 levels) your lowest investment AA build of 9 levels would have a 4 turn cooldown on Blinding Speed (3 turn duration, 8 turn cooldown base) whereas the maximum investment of 19 would have a single 2 turn cooldown and potentially perma hasted a single turn cooldown with the addition of 6 rogue/shadowdancer levels.
Allowing such an already powerfully offensive class the potential of constant seven of out eight turns hasted speed , additional 4 AC and a free full attack would be massively overpowered by any standard.

However granting them some battlefield control spells such as grease/tangle/web or vine mine on a 3 - 4 minute cooldown would offer some survivability especially if they scaled off arcane class and AA levels.

Edit: Strikethrough of incorrection calcuation and conclusion.

[Astral]

Giving arcane archers the cooldown reduction shared by the stealth classes would be considerably overpowered.

Assuming the same rules apply (1 turn cooldown reduction per 6 levels) your lowest investment AA build of 9 levels would have a 4 turn cooldown on Blinding Speed (3 turn duration, 8 turn cooldown base) whereas the maximum investment of 19 would have a single turn cooldown and potentially perma hasted with the addition of 6 rogue/shadowdancer levels.
Allowing such an already powerfully offensive class the potential of constant hasted speed, additional 4 AC and a free full attack would be massively overpowered by any standard.

However granting them some battlefield control spells such as grease/tangle/web or vine mine on a 3 - 4 minute cooldown would offer some survivability especially if they scaled off arcane class and AA levels.

Your calculation is wrong.

You get 1 minute for every 6 lvls of a class with CDR. Lets put AA inside this equation to check. You need a base class that is either ranger or arcane class, so you already cant get perma haste (because for perma haste you will need a sum of 30 lvls in classes who get CDR). The most you can get is 4 minutes of CDR if you combine rogue/sd/assassin as your 3rd class and have a sum of 24+ lvls of rogue and AA but you will not have 30 lvls of those classes, cause again, base class has to be ranger or arcane class.

[Baseili]

Yeah my bad on that one, somehow managed to add that extra turn cooldown reduction. I would still maintain that even with a minute cooldown on haste it is still exceptionally powerful.

[magistrasa]

I'm just going to sneak into this discussion to get on my hands and knees and beg the devs to put Imbue Arrow on a cooldown rather than it being a three-use ability. (And maybe to tweak all the ability DCs so they're more consistent - but Hail of Arrows and Arrow of Death are pretty much useless and I pretty much never use them, so unless the DC for the latter gets buffed to the point where I don't laugh when I calculate it, I imagine that's not going to change even with such changes.)

And to remain more on the previously established rails, I'm going to agree with most of what COV said, both on the blinding speed cooldown reduction being unnecessary, and towards the added CL as both a balance and thematic decision. Since CL goes into the effectiveness of spells cast on templates, it'd make AAs be able to actually fill those unstable slots. That'd be cool.

[Kenji]

You missed the most important part where while both AA and ranger are full bab class, ranger can easily get perma-hasted from BS CDR while AA has no access to that perma-haste. That is the most fundamental part in my argument that I said 3-4 times now repeatedly.

I am not certain on where the Rangers are getting their perma-haste is coming from. Giving BS CDR to either Ranger or AA is not a good idea, to begin with.

I simply think they need some survive ability QoL buffs and it makes perfect sense to me and not overpowered to give them CDR on BS for that reason. Please leave rangers to another thread, thank you.

AAs are exclusively a ranged class, Rangers simply can't be left out due to how it also has a path for ranged. When balancing and survivability are concerned, other classes and their strengths and weaknesses should also be addressed and compared.

For high-level Rogues and Assassins, they have low AB outside of stealth, and their sneak/death attacks have relatively short distance, especially for ranged. Mix-matching Rogues, assassins, and SD for permanent haste without any discipline dumping class just results in lower AB (if class levels are spread pre-epic) and being a KD bait.

They need mobility to manoeuvre and position themselves. And their tools are generally HiPS (if SD dip), countered by True Seeing or High Spot/Listen. Improved Invisibility, countered by True Seeing/See Invisibility or High Listen. Rogue Grenades, low DC if dipped with non-rogue classes. Corner Sneaks, countered by High Listen, but the reliability is questionable.

There are not many characters with high Listen ranks, note that. At the same time, stealth specialists need to keep all of this in mind while maintaining that 30m distance to maximize their damage and keep themselves alive. It is not a small feat to accomplish.

--- Compare the above with other ranged classes with higher AB:

Archers, in general, can attack at a greater distance without losing their potency, along with high base AB and access to Called Shot (AAs are perfect for this). The AB ranges from 53~58 for AA builds, +20 with TS potions.

Rangers, while having slightly lower AB compared to AAs, they have the ability to HiPS in certain areas for an AB boost, on top of their raw damage from FE. Both Rangers and AA are prime candidates for spamming Called Shots if their target doesn't have adequate discipline equipment. And they still have access to blinding speed when built Dex, just on a higher cooldown.

Ranged Clerics have even more tools.

I can simply quote many experienced players so I don't have to keep reinventing the wheel:

I will say this: Sneak-based archers are usually pretty bad. You throw a good 3-4 points of AB into the dumpster, in exchange for potential heightened damage - but the flip side of that is that you're fairly squishy in melee, and can't sneak with ranged weapons except in near-melee range. Even -assassinate has this problem; the command has a pretty short range, and you almost never want to be that close as an archer. You want to be kiting, or shooting from engine draw distance away.

The old ranger/rogue/aa build had the same problems.

With that in mind, we can finally come to tell you why giving ranged characters, ones with high AB, an innate speed boost is a quick way to break the game. They don't need the CDR to their mobility boost to kite. These max-distance archers need to be utilizing other sources of haste before a battle and save popping blinding speed during the kite chase. And if that CD is reduced, then it reduces the counter plays available to those archers, thus making them overpowered.

[Astral]

Except that they already have access to this tool but their survie ability in pve really sucks so I proposed to cut the CD on it by 3 minutes, no more than 4 minutes possible.

Rangers can get perma-haste if they get CDR on this because they can take spreads like 21+ ranger, and rogue all the rest. 30 lvls = 5 minutes CDR.

I have nothing more to add at this point. But at least now I'm getting serious logical counter arguments and not wrong numbers and comparisons to other classes that arent relevant here. Much appreciated.