Nerf this

[Rook]

Alright then. Let's try something new -- Let's give every single caster mob, or half of all the caster NPCs in the game EDK that they can use on demand. Since there exist multiple counters available, this shouldn't be much of an issue for an average party to deal with.

@yellowcateyes

Make this happen?

Not trying to yank your chain here, but a more comparable and realistic way to do this, would be to have an epic dungeon's end boss summon an EDK, rather than every mob in a pack.

And now ask yourself if that'd be particularly difficult, if you know it's going to happen and can prepare for it. It'd be the most predictable move to counter, can be countered fairly easily for any UMD build and in reality wouldn't provide much of an obstacle for most of the people who are familiar with the corresponding game mechanics, I'd reckon.

Still feel it's the same with caster EDKs. They (as well as OHKO spells) usually only catch the uninitiated unaware. Educatin on that matter would likely provide a better balancing effort than nerfing spells of that nature.

On another note: I am glad that the Evo combo isn't the only thing left in a modern caster's arsenal, because especially the enchantment changes actually made other combos more viable, but it's just a fact of the game, that certain builds won't be affected by much that springs from a caster's finger tips and those builds either seem to become increasingly popular or I just notice them more, after playing one for the longest out of any of my characters.

[Tarkus the dog]

Yes, it would be difficult to deal with, that's my entire point. Picture a level 21 party going to orclands, no one has UMD, disjunction or WoF scrolls and the boss drops an EDK. That party is going to get utterly destroyed, and honesty? The moment casters get a little bit of their own medicine they would be pushing for the same change. Don't believe me? I'm telling you. By all means. Give the bosses EDK.

[-XXX-]

Picture a party of incompetent players with their lackluster "purist RP builds" attempting to PvP a cookie-cutter weaponmaster.
Now let's use that as an argument for the removal of the Ki Critical and Increased Multiplier feats.

[Tarkus the dog]

Picture a party of incompetent players with their lackluster "purist RP builds" attempting to PvP a cookie-cutter weaponmaster.
Now let's use that as an argument for the removal of the Ki Critical and Increased Multiplier feats.

You could use that as an argument indeed, but unlike your own -- my argument actually makes sense. You don't need Ki Critical and Increased Multiplier feats to beat a party of bad players. I actually beat a paladin once with a bronze weapon as a weaponmaster. No, that doesn't mean paladins are weak and weaponmasters are strong. You are also comparing apples to oranges. Besides, weaponmasters are pretty mediocre at the moment, any mage should be able to absolutely trash on a wm. I could almost call it a one trick pony class simply because all they can do is dish out a lot of damage very quickly, and this damage is pretty easy to avoid especially now that you no longer can deal physical damage in time stop -- They absolutely suck in all other aspects.

My point is that an EDK can beat a party of competent players simply by existing if that party is lacking a cleric/UMD. One of my points, at the very least, you can scroll up and go through the rest of them again -- as well as the posts made by other people, giving you solid facts and good reasons why EDK needs a change.

[Shadowy Reality]

I will just leave this here, these are my saves, on a Wizard/PM/Bard. With just Endurance and Cats. I get +10 from Spellcraft and my gear does not even have Spellcraft.
I can't beat any of my own saves, save on a natural 1.

You can't argue that saves are fine because most people don't have the right gear. Disc/SC/Str/Con/Uni gear isnt that hard to get, you dont need runes for that, only a single 5%. It is actually cheaper to 5% enchant it than to buy the runes necessary.

You want to tune down EDK? I agree, it is a button press that does much damage against the non-optimized non-prepared players. But so are most optimized melee builds these days. They dish out 300+ damage a round against anyone who is not properly buffed, or someone who is not in Expertise, or does not have Tumble, at the same click of a button.

[Tarkus the dog]

Most optimized builds don't have the ability to make duplicates of them selves, though.

[Shadowy Reality]

I get it, and I agree that the EDK is like a WM but better, and the mage can still cast spells.

What I am arguing is that if you imagine a scenario without EDK, a non-Evocation mage is left without many tools to compete at the higher levels of PvP. That versatility that is often spoken about does not exist when they can't beat the saves. And I could do a whole rant on how the save binary system is idiotic.

I get it saves can't be nerfed down (or DCs up), as many spells are disables, effectively ending the fight. What could be done is implement a system like 5e does, where if you failed a Hold Person save you aren't stuck for the next 3 minutes, you get a new save every round. That way saves could be as bad as failing 50% of the time and still be extremely balanced in the bigger picture (this obviously does not apply to death spells).

[-XXX-]

You could use that as an argument indeed, but unlike your own -- my argument actually makes sense.

No it most definitely doesn't make sense and I made my parallel to outline that. The fact that you are still capable of releasing the above statement after that explains everything.

[CosmicOrderV]

Correct me if I'm wrong Tarkus, and maybe -XXX- as well, but I feel like Shadowy Reality has the topic more pinned than most.

Tarkus is arguing that EDK as is, offers too much for its comparative cost. Which I think has been pretty well objectively established.

What Tarkus isn't saying, is that mages would not need some sort of complimentary buff elsewhere. That's where -XXX- among others, found their objection. This is something I would agree with as well. Yes, without it, mages would start to appear lack-luster, short of evocation. Abjuration + Any other school that preys on low saves is still pretty useful (Necro/Illusion/Enchant), such that you can take away immunities and instantly win fights, but that does require a little wind-up and dispel-luck.

It's not to say that casters would not be due for some manner of additional goodies, if and when EDK got toned down. Just that, for what investment EDK takes, it pays back too much. Because not many other avenues are as valuable to casters, it limits their appeal / PvP viability, therefore limiting the variety of builds within. Myself and others have expressed that it's a shame it plays out this way.

Obviously there's no simple solution just yet, and as Irongron mentiond in the interview with Angry Mob, HAKs are on the horizon. Once they arrive, it will allow for more control and depth of tweaks to classes like casters especially, because they'll eventually have spells that NWN never even included. Until then, I would think if anything does happen to EDK, it should be very minor.

Only after HAKs arrive will we be able to really adjust the issues that casters have.

[magistrasa]

HAKs are on the horizon.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Picture a level 21 party going to orclands, no one has UMD, disjunction or WoF scrolls and the boss drops an EDK. That party is going to get utterly destroyed, and honesty?

With all due respect, this argument is a bit extreme. I would argue an analogous statement would be "Picture a level anything party going to manor of mourn with no cleric, no umd, disjunction, or WoF scrolls." <--- This is poor planning IC, and poor planning results in TPK's, with or without an EDK (as it should more often, IMO).

Give every caster boss EDK, and what you will see is a drastic increase in the number of banishment/dismissal scrolls for sale, with parties who don't have access to these countermeasures using other dungeons. It won't be the end of the world, not by a long shot.

I don't think any of the summons are too strong- they all have ridiculously unintelligent AI and they're all easy to get rid of given the absolutely prolific nature of UMD on this server. And while I almost exclusively play casters, at the moment, neither of my characters can cast any kind of summoning spell. (Edit: I guess this is technically not true- I get shelgarn's and mord's sword, but they don't really apply here). It would be to my characters' benefit if certain other casters had a part of their toolkit nerfed, but these things are literally so easy to shut down that it seems like a waste of effort to me.