Recent Bone Skin Changes

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. It's a trade off, that's all there is to it. Pretty similar to the one melee palemasters take. You lose some of your offensive ability in return for an increase in defense ( sneak immunity, crit immunity and also stun, hold and paralyze immunity on top of that that is often swept under the rug ). You're a caster character with 60 AC. That's still a big deal. You're also not taking into the account how often melee characters have to fight in improved expertise.



Does this look fun or fair to you? It doesn't look like either of those things to me. Even after the nerf I don't think there should be 60 AC crit/sneak immune casters in the game but considering that, one, at least they can't cast avascular mass, and two, it comes with a huge trade off - I can live with it. Also I agree that the SR bug should be corrected and must be a vexing thing to deal with.

Now let's talk about melee palemasters. They are tanks. That's what they were meant to be all these years ago but it took some time for the server to realize the importance of having an extra APR and full BAB ( given by the divine power scroll ). That was their biggest hit balance wise in my opinion, the newest update barely changes anything about them in terms of what their main job is. At the very least it allows some melee builds to have an easier time fighting them and not resorting to an instant "well I'm not fighting that, that's a waste of my time". Are they fun to play? Not really, not in my opinion, at least. But you're going to have a really hard time killing Paush without one, and this is where the palemasters step in. In general, I don't think that they should be a common sight or something anyone has decided to play this morning.

I also noticed you mentioning divine shield builds. Divine shield builds have their own pros and cons as well, the obvious pros being that you indeed are given a significant increase in armor class, and the con being that it's dodge ac and that the buff is only temporary. I think that they are fine as they are (as they can be countered and the classes that use them aren't as powerful as other melee classes, except maybe for the sorcerer variant but I really wouldn't know much about this ), and the only one that comes to mind is the high paladin and that's not even due to the divine shield feat, but rather the holy sword spell which is overtuned ( It should be a breach on hit, in my opinion, and the damage versus evil should be made magical ).

To sum it up, I don't think that caster palemasters fall under the "high AC" builds category, but considering they are casters with critical damage immunity it's easy to see them belonging there. In the simplest of terms, they are a mage variation. Giving them more offense would ruin the entire point of playing a palemaster. Not to say that their offense capability is weak, however. EDK is a pretty powerful spell. It can be countered, sure, and if that wasn't the case then I would call it overpowered. With the 'limited' tools that you're given, you have to figure out how to battle your enemy considering that you are, very much, a tank-mage, and not a fully dedicated wizard. There are a lot of classes, feats and abilities that still need further changes and I'm not calling Arelith perfect when it comes to it's ability to make the server a healthy and an enjoyable place for everyone, regardless of their 'builds', to play on, but in terms of palemasters, as they are at the moment, I think that yellowcateyes (and everyone else?) who worked on the update did a good job. I've had my stuff taken away from me a few times on several characters in the past so I can relate to how you might feel about the change. In general, I don't think enough has changed for your character to go from robust to underpowered. You might even find it more fun to PvP now. I know it might sound weird, but from my experience with my post-artefact change weaponmaster I enjoyed those encounters more than the ones I had prior to the change, simply because you weren't allowed to make as many mistakes as before. Also It's 4:00 PM and I'm pretty sure I made a bunch of grammar mistakes and typos, sorry for taht.

[Blaisius of Agen]

I'm just amazed presumably non-afk people were getting smashed by melee palemasters for all these years.

^ winner of discussion ^

[AskRyze]

I will continue to attest this: I have, on occasion, used my caster PM to tank dungeons prior to the change when we didn't have a good tank. The AC and HP were high enough that I could reasonably fill that role without needing to worry about getting crit down. I've done this in Bonefields, Slime Temple, Stingers, and Spriggans - All of which are considered 'high-priority' grind spots and some of the best XP on the server. Granted, this was usually right before I left the grind spot to move on to the next one in the sequence, but the point still stands that a caster should not be able to tank a dungeon. That is not their role, nor should it be. When you can clear a dungeon by virtue of Death Armor and the occasional Acid Arrow to deal with trolls, something is inherently wrong.

[CosmicOrderV]

PM's toning down was easily warranted, but I do find myself agreeing with the OP in one aspect. It's tricky but: Bone Skin equating to Dodge is really wonky, logically speaking. I suppose it's not quite like characters have explicit means of measuring their own AC, and where it comes from, but I do worry about the consistency of the setting, when changes like this go into place. I'd Just presume give them no bonus AC, if it meant the setting remained more logically consistent. But, *shrugs.*

Chars interact with the world through mechanics. When those mechanics create inconsistency it subtracts from those interactions.

Maybe it hasnt quite happened yet but im of the persuasion that the integrity of the world should be number one priority when it comes to mechanics. Balance comes second, as a means of self regulating. Again, i totally think PM's needed the nerf... Im Just not sure this was the best route.

[Ork]

PM's toning down was easily warranted, but I do find myself agreeing with the OP in one aspect. It's tricky but: Bone Skin equating to Dodge is really wonky.

What is dodge AC? What is dodge the feat? What does any of these mean in the context of Arelith?

Dodge AC is a number. That's all there is to it.

[CosmicOrderV]

Those numbers equate to how likely it is that your character avoids attacks, rather than using a shield, armor, or handheld item to deflect the attack.

In the same way that persuasion is a number representing how well your char might use persuasive language, or likewise, how Listen is a number that reflects how strong your char's auditory acuity is.

Go ahead and persue this line of thinking. Let's see where it ends up.

[Ork]

Those numbers equate to how likely it is that your character avoids attacks, rather than using a shield, armor, or handheld item to deflect the attack.

What is AC to you then? Again it is solely numbers, and the argument is really silly to take exception to a change because the name of some obscure category semantically doesn't align with its literal translation.

[CosmicOrderV]

I would somewhat agree, but only somewhat. It's not a terribly big deal, but only because AC and a character's interaction with it, is a bit obscure. Like I said, it's not exactly like char's have an explicit way to measure AC. Nonetheless, like i also already said, it does set a potentially worrying precedent, in which I feel like priorities are misplaced, and inconsistencies take rise.

As to your question, AC is the measure of how likely it is that a physical attack may attempt to damage one's body. It's a representation of the active efforts a creature has put into ensuring their body isnt successfully attacked.

[CptJonas]

Just one note withow reading all this...

Mine feedback is this...
Normal AC on PM doesnt make sense...
Change on PM is bad and lazy nerf...

My opinion...PM should not get any AC...they should get lvl scaling damage % rezistence to psychical...or even make it undead like...
For example...with 16 pm lvls ...30% imu for slashing and piercing...and 30% vulnerability on bludgoing...something of that sort..

[Irongron]

I would somewhat agree, but only somewhat. It's not a terribly big deal, but only because AC and a character's interaction with it, is a bit obscure. Like I said, it's not exactly like char's have an explicit way to measure AC. Nonetheless, like i also already said, it does set a potentially worrying precedent, in which I feel like priorities are misplaced, and inconsistencies take rise.

As to your question, AC is the measure of how likely it is that a physical attack may attempt to damage one's body. It's a representation of the active efforts a creature has put into ensuring their body isnt successfully attacked.

I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

[Skeletor]

I honestly don't care much about the AC thing... I took palemaster because of the juicy enhancements to death magic. And It was broken, (circle of death didn't scale) for a long time but i kept playing it... and then one day it got fixed and suddenly my Circle of death was working like a charm. I'm happy with how it is.

I really like the class being more about the spells than the defense. I mean defense is already pretty huge, immunity to criticals is just beyond.

I also appreciate the nerf hitting AC which is what EVERYONE was complaining about and leaving the sweet latest changes to magic untouched. Very well done, limiting it to just the issue at hand.

[Richørd]

They are still crit and sneak immune. IMHO the AC could be further toned down.

My guess about PM players rising to the forums to complain about the first of (hopefully) lots of nerfs to that class was correct. It's fun to see even some PM players say "Yeah mate, this class is ridiculous" while others are still defending that class.

Further there was always the idea of making PMs fully undead so they could be damaged by healing spells and vice versa healed by negative energy spells. This was often times dismissed as too extreme as "Palemasters are not fully undead" while they still enjoy the creat and sneak immunity undeads have.
Now that Boneskin is counted as Dodge AC it's fitting. Getting "flatfooted" and loosing that AC? Well, see it as a representation of someone finally being able to pinpoint those few meaty organs a PM still has left in his body.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I'm going to preface this with a video I think sums up why we have salty Palemasters, or really anyone that has a hard nerf to their main class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY

Though it talks about it from the principle of fighting games, in many ways, NWN and Arelith has a similar "Fighting Game" mindset despite the major differences in rules. Actions and behaviors must be known and the numbers are just as important as what you can do with them.

The Palemaster nerf despite the massive potential gain intended for caster improvements is one that has a negative effect because it did bring down Palemaster's to the similar AC potential of other classes that aim for higher AC. However, the class still has a d4 hit die and 1/2 AB progression which made the warrior style something that didn't have the AB potential or HP potential, even more so now that it encouraged 20 Int/Cha for those sweet free feats in epic. While that buff is still very good, it didn't feel to those warrior PMs like that large a buff since it just freed up two epic feats that probably went into smaller improvements comparatively.

This nerf however took down a potential 10 AC cap and left a 5 AC gain potential in dodge bonus which hurt the less common and very weird Charisma lined Bard 4/Blackguard 10/16 PM which tended to be a paper tiger of HP but had massive saves and AC that made it difficult to deal with. The nerf doesn't allow extra creative expression to many builds because the durability through AC and crit/sneak immunity was their goal and everything else was a cherry on top. Most of those people really just wanted to play a character that could stand in the front line and while they did have fewer weaknesses, lower AB, HP, and damage were the expected trade offs. I suspect those very people would actually have been okay with a more thematic weakness rather than one that targeted their AC.

In fact, I'll raise the question right now to those Palemasters. Would you guys rather have had the AC loss you had or a switch to more undead like qualities where negative energy healed you and positive energy harmed you? I'd be interested in seeing those responses.

[Nitro]

I'm going to preface this with a video I think sums up why we have salty Palemasters, or really anyone that has a hard nerf to their main class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY

Though it talks about it from the principle of fighting games, in many ways, NWN and Arelith has a similar "Fighting Game" mindset despite the major differences in rules. Actions and behaviors must be known and the numbers are just as important as what you can do with them.

While that is a great video, it is as you said mostly in the principle of fighting games, not a persistent world MMORPG. Adopting a stance of buffing other things to bring parity to something overpowered here will inevitably lead to feature and power creep as not only all the classes need adjusting, but also all of the carefully tuned dungeons and NPC content of the module.

[JubJub]

Logic doesn't come into play with D&D Forgotten Realms, NWN etc.. You have to set the logic at the door when you want to play. What's more logic blowing a bone arm dodge ac or seeing the person you cut down just a few minutes ago walk by you in the hub? People can summon a volcano, that defies logic.

[Ebonstar]

No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"

So you're upset because your obviously evil character is the target of IC-related consequences in places where such is deemed unacceptable? If so, then write your original post about that and not the mechanics around the Bone Skin change.

The feedback subforum isn't the place for you to air your dirty laundry because you're mad that your ObviouslyEvil(tm) character is targeted by good guys.

Not upset at all. I'm saying Bone Skin is the hardening of skin, and a Dodge Bonus has absolutely nothing to do with the hardening of skin. My point is if you're going to live off the success of D&D, adopt its logic as well.

here is a real world logic for this, say your a gymnast in real life, and you go to the beach and get a massive sunburn ( hardening of skin) can you still go do your regular routines with that sunburn the next day, or will that hardened skin cause so much pain that you dont want to do much of anything active? ( dodge ability)

and this example is from when my cousin who did this didnt want to be seen for two days because she thought because it was cloudy, that florida sunshine wouldnt burn her to a lobster crisp. She walked around like a robot in the old 50s movies it was so painful

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I'm going to preface this with a video I think sums up why we have salty Palemasters, or really anyone that has a hard nerf to their main class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY

Though it talks about it from the principle of fighting games, in many ways, NWN and Arelith has a similar "Fighting Game" mindset despite the major differences in rules. Actions and behaviors must be known and the numbers are just as important as what you can do with them.

While that is a great video, it is as you said mostly in the principle of fighting games, not a persistent world MMORPG. Adopting a stance of buffing other things to bring parity to something overpowered here will inevitably lead to feature and power creep as not only all the classes need adjusting, but also all of the carefully tuned dungeons and NPC content of the module.

I'm not hoping for an "Arelith Rainbow Edition" to make the reference to that video. But the subtle things talked about in patch changes in Street Fighter were referenced as things that made the general players feel they had more options for expression. That is very true for something like Neverwinter Nights and it's D&D system. To me, an ideal Arelith has tons of characters of varying class combinations and so many characters look and feel very different. Some have "Overpowered" abilities but done in a way that don't step on the toes of the others in PvE and also doesn't feel like an "I win" button in PvP. It's a hard goal to shoot for and I'm not sure that's what the development team is looking for at the moment 100%. I do think that many changes are done now with the idea of making classes stand out more and usually that comes in options and expression. If one of the issues of Arelith is that some classes can get too much AC and AC becomes a "win" no matter what the numbers are, maybe the solution isn't to target that AC but instead to find more options that go around it.

[Shadowy Reality]

In fact, I'll raise the question right now to those Palemasters. Would you guys rather have had the AC loss you had or a switch to more undead like qualities where negative energy healed you and positive energy harmed you? I'd be interested in seeing those responses.

I am one of those Palemaster players. I had voiced my opinion in the other thread reagrding this. I would very much have retained the AC and gained some undead traits, or even lose the extra feats.

Mechanically speaking I went for Palemaster because I could have a high AC and know that I would not be instantly or easily destroyed in PvP.

So, what would happen if we had removed those 3 bonus epics feats? That would be 3 epic feats the PM is now short. What does this mean? It means that instead of having say... Autostill Spell II and Epic Skill Discipline, I would have to pick ESF Necromancy, EDK and Mummy Dust. Effectively losing 6 AC from armor/shield (look at that, it is pretty much by how much they were nerfed).

Alternatively, it would give me the choice to drop those three feats and maintain my AC, but be very lackluster when it came to offensive maneuvers, no dragon, not top tier undead and -2 DC on Death spells. But the choice would have been in my hands.

I do not think full undead traits should apply, but I could definitely see Positive energy healing maybe by 50%, partially solving the issue of Heal Potions.

[Memelord]

Personally, I just want Bonus damage vs. Undead from sources like Bless Weapon & Favored Enemy to apply to Palemasters, but I have no idea how you'd even go about making that happen.

[Blaisius of Agen]

In fact, I'll raise the question right now to those Palemasters. Would you guys rather have had the AC loss you had or a switch to more undead like qualities where negative energy healed you and positive energy harmed you? I'd be interested in seeing those responses.

Every PM would have appreciated more undead qualities vs. ac nerf. How can you argue with 'more realism' vs. 'give oil to the extremely squeaky wheel that won't stop making noise no matter how much oil you give it'.

[Sartain]

In fact, I'll raise the question right now to those Palemasters. Would you guys rather have had the AC loss you had or a switch to more undead like qualities where negative energy healed you and positive energy harmed you? I'd be interested in seeing those responses.

Every PM would have appreciated more undead qualities vs. ac nerf. How can you argue with 'more realism' vs. 'give oil to the extremely squeaky wheel that won't stop making noise no matter how much oil you give it'.

The squeaky wheel gets the kick!

https://youtu.be/LN1SXkfOAyU

[JubJub]

Personally, I just want Bonus damage vs. Undead from sources like Bless Weapon & Favored Enemy to apply to Palemasters, but I have no idea how you'd even go about making that happen.

That's always been my big issue with PM. Like those murderous thrall kids it seems like they get all the advantages of undead but no weaknesses of undeath. Always seemed like being partially undead things like Bless weapon should still be partially effective. I admit turn undead might be an issue as only half the PM would run in fear.

[Nitro]

That's always been my big issue with PM. Like those murderous thrall kids it seems like they get all the advantages of undead but no weaknesses of undeath. Always seemed like being partially undead things like Bless weapon should still be partially effective. I admit turn undead might be an issue as only half the PM would run in fear.

That's the whole identity of the class though, to get closer to undeath without embracing it. To get all the benefits of undead without any of the penalties. Removing that from the class identity just makes them lich-lite.

[BHR55]

That's always been my big issue with PM. Like those murderous thrall kids it seems like they get all the advantages of undead but no weaknesses of undeath. Always seemed like being partially undead things like Bless weapon should still be partially effective. I admit turn undead might be an issue as only half the PM would run in fear.

That's the whole identity of the class though, to get closer to undeath without embracing it. To get all the benefits of undead without any of the penalties. Removing that from the class identity just makes them lich-lite.

In addition Bless/Holy Sword already give huge buffs with dispel on hit, AB, and bonus pos/divine damage against everything not enough?

As for more undead properties, I would love to graft a Bodak Eye, or Slaadi tongue and then have a message just like the pirates about it + the benefits and IC consequences. They are not undead however and that is the whole point of the class, as has been mentioned already. Having people run up and massheal you and your undead in a 1 hit KO would get old real fast. Esp when Mobs that mass heal their own party already kill all of your summons. Not to mention anyone in your party only healing half the party while killing the rest.

[Blaisius of Agen]

In fact, I'll raise the question right now to those Palemasters. Would you guys rather have had the AC loss you had or a switch to more undead like qualities where negative energy healed you and positive energy harmed you? I'd be interested in seeing those responses.

Every PM would have appreciated more undead qualities vs. ac nerf. How can you argue with 'more realism' vs. 'give oil to the extremely squeaky wheel that won't stop making noise no matter how much oil you give it'.

The squeaky wheel gets the kick!

https://youtu.be/LN1SXkfOAyU

hahaha ~ see! the original devs knew exactly what's going on here.