Recent Bone Skin Changes

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Blaisius of Agen
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Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Blaisius of Agen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:27 pm

I don't understand how Bone Skin would have anything to do with Dodge AC.. Also not sure how anyone was having a problem with their AC being too high, as it's never been a reported problem in the history of D&D..

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:49 pm

The problem with their AC being too high is that it makes them too powerful in PvP.

Dodge AC was likely chosen because it stacks with itself, unlike other sources.
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Blaisius of Agen
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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Blaisius of Agen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:53 pm

Their chance at a higher AC is really the only thing keeping them alive in any situation; I'd be shocked if there's a single PM who has ever thought their AC is too high! They already have 1/2 caster levels for their PM level in any school outside of Necro.. Now 1/2 Bone Skin AC? RIP

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:12 pm

I am down to 58ac on mine 62 with haste, which is pretty terrible when melee builds have a 50/45/40/35/50 spread.

I feel like this was aimed at melee PMs which also have IE and possibly Divine Shield. Caster PMs now have neither durability or the offensive power to deal with melees. I guess we will wait and see.
The Rambling Midget wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:49 pm
The problem with their AC being too high is that it makes them too powerful in PvP.

Dodge AC was likely chosen because it stacks with itself, unlike other sources.
Dodge was chosen because there is a +20 cap. Which means with +5 from EMA, +5 Bone Skin, +1 Boots, +1 Mage Armor and +4 Haste, Divine Shield only gives +4.
Caster PMs AC is not high, many melee builds with Divine Shield achieve more AC and no one complains about those.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:38 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:12 pm
I am down to 58ac on mine 62 with haste, which is pretty terrible when melee builds have a 50/45/40/35/50 spread.

I feel like this was aimed at melee PMs which also have IE and possibly Divine Shield. Caster PMs now have neither durability or the offensive power to deal with melees. I guess we will wait and see.
The Rambling Midget wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:49 pm
The problem with their AC being too high is that it makes them too powerful in PvP.

Dodge AC was likely chosen because it stacks with itself, unlike other sources.
Dodge was chosen because there is a +20 cap. Which means with +5 from EMA, +5 Bone Skin, +1 Boots, +1 Mage Armor and +4 Haste, Divine Shield only gives +4.
Caster PMs AC is not high, many melee builds with Divine Shield achieve more AC and no one complains about those.
Caster PM prior to this change was absurdly high - it absolutely was aimed at caster PMs. Divine builds might get similar AC (Though quite a few of them still end up below the 66 Caster PMs could get without outside help) but it's temporary because it's based on Divine Shield, and needs expertise which lowers your offensive output as well. EMA lasts forever and can't be dispelled, and caster PMs can prepare as many hastes as to be permahasted if they really want. Caster PMs should still be able to deal with melees with appropriate spell choice.

TRM is absolutely right that dodge was chosen because it means it'd stack with other AC choices. If the new bone skin gave natural, armor, shield or deflect, it wouldn't stack with other sources of AC PMs get (EMA or shields), and thus PMs would be losing even more AC.

That melee AB spread you gave is A) Not something every melee build or even most melee builds have and B) Still has a pretty decent chance of whiffing attacks. Assuming the PM isn't flatfooted, those 50 AB attacks have a 40% chance to hit your 62 AC PM. The 45 AB attack has a 15% chance. All the others only hit on natural 20s. That's still really good AC for a wizard.
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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:38 pm
That's still really good AC for a wizard.
They have exactly +5 AC than wizards can have. And Caster PMs aren't really wizards.
Each non-necromancy spell they cast has a 30% chance of failing against anyone using a common 26SR Helm, against which you can use Mords, but notice how two melee attacks per round have a 60% chance of failing and a PMs two spells have a 30%, except spells are limited, attacks are not.
And you will still not bypass cleric/druid SR. You are stuck with Necromancy which is a fairly weak school all around.

With Arelith's bloated saves non-evocation arcane casters have been terrible for ages, melee builds have been far superior both in PvE and PvP for a long while. Which is why Wild Mage is such a good path to make them viable.

I have PvPed a few times with my Caster PM, they were strong, and still are, but if you are fighting against anyone who knows what they are doing they will win merely through attrition. Your summons will not cut it, your necromancy spells will not cut it. And your IGMS won't cut it either. At which point you will be out of spells and anyone else can keep hacking at you all day long.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:08 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm
Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:38 pm
That's still really good AC for a wizard.
They have exactly +5 AC than wizards can have. And Caster PMs aren't really wizards.
And also crit, sneak and paralysis immunity. As well as effectively an extra EMD per day and several other undead summons.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Sockss » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:08 pm

Generally speaking if you fight against someone that knows what they're doing you'll lose more often than not, that's really a gaming cornerstone.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by RandomhouseAudio » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:09 pm

You ever try fighting a palemaster as a weaponmaster?

Their AC is so high you usually miss because 45 AB is more accurate for a one handed WM.

They are almost immune to most of the damage you do

They can also if they are smart CC you.

Yes UMD helps mitigate but that works both ways. If somebody is sitting there with spell resistance on ghen breach them.

This is a small but healthy balance change to make them not as totally dominant as they have been.

Yes. Palemasters should have weaknesses. Some builds and classes should destroy them. Just as they destroy MOST melee builds very, very handily.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:45 pm

I don't see a weaponmaster beating a palemaster wizard if both are equally skilled. Also I'd say that average (rounded) AB on the server is between 45 and 47.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm

Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:27 pm
Also not sure how anyone was having a problem with their AC being too high, as it's never been a reported problem in the history of D&D..
lol
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:58 pm
Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:38 pm
That's still really good AC for a wizard.
And Caster PMs aren't really wizards.
then wtf are they? you're absolutely a wizard.



All of you complaining seem to be forgetting that you get rather incredible bonuses to Necro spells, THE easiest grind in the history of Arelith through levels, more AC than almost any other build on the server, IMMUNITY TO TWO OF THE BIGGEST DAMAGE SOURCES IN THE GAME: SNEAK ATTACKS AND CRITICAL HITS, and a slew of other bonuses.

Stop complaining because you got nerfed slightly without being able to back it up with hard numbers instead of your "thoughts and feelings" in a mechanics discussion. Melee builds will still struggle to hit you reliably on their 2/3/4 attacks, you still have plenty of HP to soak blows, your AC is still great, and you're still a tank. You lost 6 AC on your meta-breaking 62 AC builds. That doesn't put you in the dumpster. And if you're somehow so aggrieved with how the nerf affects you? Play something else.

Q freaking Q.

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Blaisius of Agen
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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Blaisius of Agen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:27 pm
Also not sure how anyone was having a problem with their AC being too high, as it's never been a reported problem in the history of D&D..
lol

No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:37 pm

Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 pm
No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"
So you're upset because your obviously evil character is the target of IC-related consequences in places where such is deemed unacceptable? If so, then write your original post about that and not the mechanics around the Bone Skin change.

The feedback subforum isn't the place for you to air your dirty laundry because you're mad that your ObviouslyEvil(tm) character is targeted by good guys.

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Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Blaisius of Agen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:40 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:37 pm
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 pm
No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"
So you're upset because your obviously evil character is the target of IC-related consequences in places where such is deemed unacceptable? If so, then write your original post about that and not the mechanics around the Bone Skin change.

The feedback subforum isn't the place for you to air your dirty laundry because you're mad that your ObviouslyEvil(tm) character is targeted by good guys.
Not upset at all. I'm saying Bone Skin is the hardening of skin, and a Dodge Bonus has absolutely nothing to do with the hardening of skin. My point is if you're going to live off the success of D&D, adopt its logic as well.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:52 pm

Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:40 pm
Not upset at all. I'm saying
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:27 pm
I don't understand how Bone Skin would have anything to do with Dodge AC.. Also not sure how anyone was having a problem with their AC being too high, as it's never been a reported problem in the history of D&D..
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 pm
No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"
My point is if you're going to live off the success of D&D, adopt its logic as well.
You're saying that you don't think their AC was too high. Well, it is. And the thread I hyperlinked above succinctly explains why in numeric fashion.

Why Dodge AC? Probably to keep the Divine Shield builds that got 80+ AC in check. Probably because doing most any other type (except Untyped, which I don't know if can or can't be done by the Devs) would override EMA and then give you less AC on average than Dodge would.

Also, D&D wasn't made for NWN styled stuff. And it wasn't made particularly well to balance out minmaxers. Hence the world-breaking spell capabilities of high level casters in the base game versus the comparably far weaker abilities of a melee class of the same level.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by AskRyze » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:58 pm

Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:27 pm
Also not sure how anyone was having a problem with their AC being too high, as it's never been a reported problem in the history of D&D..
lol

No one mentioning unspoken disadvantages: oh say, how you are killed on sight if you have an undead summon, by absolutely everyone since the dawn of "civilization"
Come to the underdark, where paladins are KOS and no one cares if you turned your eyes of or have a bony arm.
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You say this, but being MILDLY MEAN to people is treated like a war crime on Arelith.


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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Ork » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:09 pm

Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:40 pm

Not upset at all. I'm saying Bone Skin is the hardening of skin, and a Dodge Bonus has absolutely nothing to do with the hardening of skin. My point is if you're going to live off the success of D&D, adopt its logic as well.
By this logic it should be natural armor and you'd lose a lot of AC by this type change.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Blaisius of Agen » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:22 pm

AskRyze wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:58 pm
Come to the underdark, where paladins are KOS and no one cares if you turned your eyes of or have a bony arm.
OMW!

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:32 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:09 pm
Blaisius of Agen wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:40 pm

Not upset at all. I'm saying Bone Skin is the hardening of skin, and a Dodge Bonus has absolutely nothing to do with the hardening of skin. My point is if you're going to live off the success of D&D, adopt its logic as well.
By this logic it should be natural armor and you'd lose a lot of AC by this type change.
*slaps forehead comically*

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Shadowy Reality » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
All of you complaining seem to be forgetting that you get rather incredible bonuses to Necro spells
What are you talking about? The bonus are nice, but the spells are not. Horrid Wilting is the only usable spell and it is still fairly weak for an 8th level slot.
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
, THE easiest grind in the history of Arelith through levels,
Irrelevant. Classes are not balanced by their PvE potential but rather their PvP potential. And I can name at least one other class that has a much easier experience in all aspects.
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
more AC than almost any other build on the server,
Again, I am referring in particular to Caster PMs, which do not achieve the highest AC in the server.
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Stop complaining because you got nerfed slightly without being able to back it up with hard numbers instead of your "thoughts and feelings" in a mechanics discussion.
The numbers are there, you just don't want to read them. You argue that hitting on a 13+ at an AB of +49 is alright and I argue that it isn't, given that caster PMs have basically nothing but IGMS to hit back with, at a 30% chance of failing. What will happen is that the PM will run out of slots and the meleer will not get out of attacks.
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Q freaking Q.
Just because you don't like or agree with what I write you don't need to be a Snuggybear about it. I am well aware the changes are here to stay for the foreseeable future, what I am trying to show is that things aren't as broken or one sided as they are made to be.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:00 am

Step 1. Cast Haste
Step 2. EDK
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Dirac » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:30 am

I heard a “prolific” power builder got dumpstered by a PM shortly before they got nerfed into the dirt. Please stop dunking this guy so we don’t have to keep rerolling our builds!

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:38 am

you probably shouldn't believe everything you "hear" from angry second hand sources on the internet whispering about elite cabals, to be totally truthful with you.

i think my only beef with the palemaster changes are that they weren't accompanied by a fix for the SR penetration bug the class has, which is a pretty big deal that makes SR way more useful against them (even with mords/breach) than they might otherwise be.

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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:48 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
All of you complaining seem to be forgetting that you get rather incredible bonuses to Necro spells
What are you talking about? The bonus are nice, but the spells are not. Horrid Wilting is the only usable spell and it is still fairly weak for an 8th level slot.
You're right, sorry. A level 2 biteback spell that's low on the Breach list and gives 30 unmitigated biteback damage isn't a big bonus for a class that doesn't both get hit easily as well as take damage from some main sources. The +4 DC on Energy Drain (which reduces Saves by anywhere from -2 to -8 and skills from -4 to -16, btw) isn't good either.
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
, THE easiest grind in the history of Arelith through levels,
Irrelevant. Classes are not balanced by their PvE potential but rather their PvP potential. And I can name at least one other class that has a much easier experience in all aspects.
I went from 1 to 30 on mine in the span of a week of basically mild play, half-watching Netflix while my Undead did the trick. The only other one is Warlock, which actually requires input other than "Player Tool 1" sometimes. Also, while I can concede the point on PvP potential vs. PvE, the ability to get to 30 faster than its peers shouldn't be discounted.
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
more AC than almost any other build on the server,
Again, I am referring in particular to Caster PMs, which do not achieve the highest AC in the server.
They get a LOT more than their peers of other casters. Even now their AC is comparable to Sorc/BG or Pal builds except they have it constantly as well as immunity to sneaks/crits.
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Stop complaining because you got nerfed slightly without being able to back it up with hard numbers instead of your "thoughts and feelings" in a mechanics discussion.
The numbers are there, you just don't want to read them. You argue that hitting on a 13+ at an AB of +49 is alright and I argue that it isn't, given that caster PMs have basically nothing but IGMS to hit back with, at a 30% chance of failing. What will happen is that the PM will run out of slots and the meleer will not get out of attacks.
For like the nine-millionth time in all of these threads, BREACH. Lasts 10 rounds, no save vs. SR reduction, mitigates the "low CL to spell pen" nonsense totally-- and tbh, you should be doing it anyway. Saying they have "nothing to hit back with" is nonsense. They have just as much as other arcane casters. Bigby's line, the Clouds, Undead summons, EDK, etc. etc. etc.. And you're right, I do argue that hitting on a 13+ at an AB of +49 is alright, because that's only a 40% chance to hit on the FIRST attack that then turns into a 15% on the second, then a 5% nat 20 roll for attacks number 3 and 4. And that's not even factoring in the concealment chances which toss in a 25% chance to miss by most melee builds, even if they roll a 13+. So yeah, you can say it isn't enough AC or that "the numbers are there and I just don't want to read them," but you're pointedly and objectively wrong and the numbers cleanly show my side on this.
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:48 pm
Jack Oat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Q freaking Q.
Just because you don't like or agree with what I write you don't need to be a Snuggybear about it. I am well aware the changes are here to stay for the foreseeable future, what I am trying to show is that things aren't as broken or one sided as they are made to be.
I know you're trying to make that argument. You and others keep trying to make the same arguments over, and over, and over, and quite frankly it's tiring to have these circular discussions where all the evidence that points quite candidly to the fact that they are broken is conveniently ignored. Things like 13+ to hit only on the first attack is a favorite of everyone's to forget. Things like "cl too low" when Breach exists is conveniently forgotten over and over. Things like "nothing to do back" while you're playing an Arcane Caster which can comfortably fit in 3 Spell Foci is consistently overlooked.

Given the number of times that all of these arguments have been rebuked, it's getting hard for me not to be curt with people who keep bringing up the same three disproven points over and over like a broken record. Also? I'd be far less upset if the discussions actually kept in line with the math instead of constantly turning into nonsensical discussions about the lore aspect or people making brash claims that simply don't line up with the facts because they "feel" a certain way.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Recent Bone Skin Changes

Post by Freyason » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:05 am

I'm just amazed presumably non-afk people were getting smashed by melee palemasters for all these years.

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