Nerf Pale Master

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:23 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:36 pm
Take this as you will. As Shadowy Reality said, there are apparently nerfs already in the works so that renders much of my point here null and void.
I think you mean yelliwcateyes, I am in no way related with any balancing.

With that said, I very much disagree with the notion of removing their bonus AC. I think removing bonus feats is the way to go.
Melee PMs without that AC are going to plain out lose against any meleer. Their AC does not offset the HP and damage output difference. The cookie cutter build of the moment is not the WM anymore, it is the divine fighter, which with might and shield makes this fight even more one sided if the PM lost its AC.

Caster PMs without that AC are going to be fodder likewise, they will be worse wizards because they have a lower CL and have focus in a terrible school for some immunities.

I think it is unfair to say PMs are too tanky, when that is what they are designed for. They give up their offensive potential for that tankiness. Neither PM variant is a real threat to any other optimal build. Their summons suck, it does not matter if you can summon loads of them, all it takes is a WoF. So all they have is that AC and immunities.

If you take the feats away suddenly the PM either loses the AC, by foregoing EMA or autostill. Or they lose offensive power through the loss of epic foci/mummydust/edk. And I will guarantee you the better choice is to lose the latter, because they are mostly irrelevant.

Edit: someone mentioned they have a win button through touch attacks, this is false, death ward protects against the graft death effect.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Sartain » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:43 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:38 pm
Sartain wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:55 am
We could also thematically ban all scroll use for non-caster classes... :roll:
This would literally be a hard-buff to Pale Masters.
Yeah, my implied point was that thematic re-works can be dangerously unbalanced

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Kreydis » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:54 pm

So, I'd like to point out, that the overwhelming majority agrees, but disagrees about the details. Also that the dev team has a 'fix' in the works. I'm wondering if they might shed some light on that. Else I think we're just going to end up in the ditch of NO U sooner or later.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by -XXX- » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:08 pm

TBH I find it to be a reason for concern when balancing actions are being requested for the "I'm struggling to reliably kill X" reason rather than the "my character continually keeps dying to X" reason.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:36 pm

If you feel your Pale Master is too difficult to kill, you are obviously not fighting enough Paladins/Druids. There are plenty of counters to the silly summons, that are a guaranteed kill with WOF, and followed by banishment prevents further waves. I watched a dragon shifter/EDK (was hard to tell in the chaos) turn a melee/PM into paste pretty quickly.

Thematically the palemaster is giving up a big chunk of spell casting prowess for greater necromancy, a larger melee presence, and at high levels its like a stitched together Frankenstein's Monster. Nearly indistinguishable from the undead they surround themselves with.

IMO the AC represents that greater physical presence. Expertise is nearly useless to a caster PM when u have to actually cast, and even if your ARM DC is high, good luck touching someone with that Trash AB as a caster. In addition if someone actually targets your awful reflex save, and casts Shadow Conj web or some other entanglement spell your AC drops pretty hard. More so if you AC is Dex based.

At the end of the day I guess a nerf is coming either way, I look forward to pulping yet more PM's with a Bardadin/Druid in the near future.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by The Rambling Midget » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:09 pm

BHR55 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:36 pm
even if your ARM DC is high, good luck touching someone with that Trash AB as a caster.
It's a touch attack. Once you're up to epics, which is about as soon as you'll get a decent arm DC anyway, you'll be able to touch anything but pure dexers.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Ninjaturtle » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:25 pm

I've been trying to avoid stating the obvious, but I find the timing of the suggested nerf a bit concerning. The Palemaster update has been around for quite awhile, but we should now address their pvp capabilities, during a time of war in Andunor. It's obvious that the Palemaster is no more powerful than quite a few other cookie cutter builds. Why not focus instead on increasing the required skill level of other fighter classes, such as the weapon master since it been stated before, in order to make them more than just a one push button in pvp?

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:29 pm

Ninjaturtle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:25 pm
I've been trying to avoid stating the obvious, but I find the timing of the suggested nerf a bit concerning. The Palemaster update has been around for quite awhile, but we should now address their pvp capabilities, during a time of war in Andunor. It's obvious that the Palemaster is no more powerful than quite a few other cookie cutter builds. Why not focus instead on increasing the required skill level of other fighter classes, such as the weapon master since it been stated before, in order to make them more than just a one push button in pvp?
RP can't be taken into consideration when talking about mechanics changes and balance. If a class, bug, or feature within the game needs tweaking, it must be done agnostically of any situation that's happening in game. There will always be someone who can say "but this affects my RP right now, don't do it!" so the only fair way to do it, is when it comes up and when the work is done, completely divorced of anything that's happening in game.

This goes for any bug, any exploit, any imbalance, ever.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:37 pm

Fair enough, but the DC still is not that strong in my opinion, it most certainly does not count the Shadow mage Bonus towards it's DC, and it has a significant cool down. Four times longer than Time stop even. Most people I have fought tend to have a Fort of at least 35 so if you can actually hit DC 42 I am impressed, but you have traded something to get those Epic Int feats.

DC 17 + Int bonus 16(42(18 Base + 2 gift +2 racial? + 7 dump + 1 int feat +12 gear/buffs)) + 6 epic necro = DC 39
Unless someone is cooking something fancier than that a shadowmage/PM would have a higher DC with Finger of death with greater range/less risk to themselves and no cool down so they can spam it 4+ times.

Against someone with a 35 Fort such as a Paladin geared(prob even higher for them) It is a very low success rate...
The above also assumes you don't use a simple circle 4/5 counter from your natural enemies(paladin/cleric/druid) using a DeathWard, which is not on the breach list so must be dispelled, not breached.

For a DC 42 you would need 4 more epic int feats for a total of +5 epic int(5 feats). Not sure how someone is hitting that DC, unless there is some benefit from Bard Song I am missing. Even then a Melee PM would need strength not just charisma to balance out their poor AB. Genuinely curious on this point.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:41 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:29 pm
Ninjaturtle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:25 pm
I've been trying to avoid stating the obvious, but I find the timing of the suggested nerf a bit concerning. The Palemaster update has been around for quite awhile, but we should now address their pvp capabilities, during a time of war in Andunor. It's obvious that the Palemaster is no more powerful than quite a few other cookie cutter builds. Why not focus instead on increasing the required skill level of other fighter classes, such as the weapon master since it been stated before, in order to make them more than just a one push button in pvp?
RP can't be taken into consideration when talking about mechanics changes and balance. If a class, bug, or feature within the game needs tweaking, it must be done agnostically of any situation that's happening in game. There will always be someone who can say "but this affects my RP right now, don't do it!" so the only fair way to do it, is when it comes up and when the work is done, completely divorced of anything that's happening in game.

This goes for any bug, any exploit, any imbalance, ever.
I think he is more pointing out that Pale Masters seem to be winning the war for a given side, making it seem OP to some people. Rather than arguing, "But then I won't be able to win". Though I think if the powerhouses in this case suddenly become utterly obsolete, funny as it would be, would also make no sense.

I would argue that the parties fighting in this instance lack the obvious counters/natural predators to any PM being as Paladins are not common in the hub... nor are good aligned Druids in any numbers I have seen. YMMV.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by illcat » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:44 pm

My 2 Cents for what it is worth, just what I'd like to see.

PM should be Evil only, if you're going to tear out your organs and do all sorts of depraved things with the dead you get to be vulnerable to smite Evil.

A vulnerability to Positive and Divine Damage, currently they get all the benefits of being Undead without the draw backs.

Those are minor changes that don't break any builds. PMs do hard counter Crit/Sneak reliant characters and those characters without access to WoF will absolutely get chewed up by the vampire summons, or the 100% physical resist draco lich, which is fine. They will be vulnerable to clerics and paladins, but shouldn't they be?

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by illcat » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:48 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:37 am
Hey speaking of broken things that should be nerfed, why do wild mages still have avascular mass ( and probably ten other ridiculous spells I'm not even aware of )?
Because they get to perfect surge once a day reliably if they go full 30, which means no cross class skills (KD fodder) have low HP as a full wizard class and are vunerable to full sneaks and crits, and they can never stop bad surges from happening. They may very well sun strike themselves and be blind as combat begins and have to burn a wand or a -pray. Wild Mage has a give and take, PM doesn't.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:50 pm

illcat wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:44 pm
My 2 Cents for what it is worth, just what I'd like to see.

PM should be Evil only, if you're going to tear out your organs and do all sorts of depraved things with the dead you get to be vulnerable to smite Evil.

A vulnerability to Positive and Divine Damage, currently they get all the benefits of being Undead without the draw backs.

Those are minor changes that don't break any builds. PMs do hard counter Crit/Sneak reliant characters and those characters without access to WoF will absolutely get chewed up by the vampire summons, or the 100% physical resist draco lich, which is fine. They will be vulnerable to clerics and paladins, but shouldn't they be?
I agree with your point about smite evil, because a N/N L/N C/N(most practical imo) PM can be kind of weird rp Wise. You can end up with a 'good' in all but alignment PM. However just because lore wise it makes little sense to me doesn't mean much at all here.

To your other point, PM "ARE NOT" undead. They just are not, there is an excellent point posted elsewhere that describes from Libris Mortis what they are. I like to think of it as a stitched together Frankenstein monster vs actual real undead. They are freaks their abilities include grafting undead bone armor to their person, and slaadi tongues/bodak eyes.

I mean look at the picture in this wiki, do you think you can tell if this guy is undead or not at a glance? https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Pale_Master

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by illcat » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:08 pm

" However just because lore wise it makes little sense to me doesn't mean much at all here."

They are partially mummified as per the Arelith Wiki, and as a palemaster I imagine the magic that they are using to modify themselves to be negative energy based, them not being technically undead doesn't mean that they don't mechanically get the benefits of being so and that a positive/divine vulnerability is necessarily a bad change that doesn't complete destroy the class.

I think right now they are the perfect summon and forget class for PvE, and to some degree PvP. I'm not suggesting they be fully marked as undead and take damage from undeath to death, or Sunbursts. Just trying to think of some minor changes that will make both sides happy.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by -XXX- » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 pm

The type of energy related to pale mastery has no bearings on their alignment whatsoever.

Negative energy is unrelated to the evil alignment and vice versa positive energy does not necessarily have to indicate good alignment. It's better to think of them more in terms of life and anti-life energies. Neither life nor death are inherently good or evil.

Divine energy can be tied to virtually any deity (and there are gods representing aspects of all alignments across the entire alignment spectrum).

Pale masters can't be of good alignment because in order to become pale masters they need to utilize animation magic, which is not a goodly act. It's been established however, that using that kind of magic does not instantly make a character evil.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:52 pm

illcat wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:08 pm
They are partially mummified as per the Arelith Wiki, and as a palemaster I imagine the magic that they are using to modify themselves to be negative energy based, them not being technically undead doesn't mean that they don't mechanically get the benefits of being so and that a positive/divine vulnerability is necessarily a bad change that doesn't complete destroy the class.
If you just make them vulnerable, I could see that being a bit of a Nerf that could be justified. Problem is a Paladin That can already hit them, will just turn them into even more ketchup paste with a moonblade/holysword/bless weapon.

If you reverse heal/harm then massheal/lay on hands(just single target I know, use it on the dracolich) that already counters their summons basically becomes an instant win against the PC as well.

Having 50-55 AC basically means that any of the above mentioned High AB builds will essentially hit you all day, so you might as well not even bother with AC at all. 50 AC and getting hit is the same as 0 AC and getting hit. If anything the complain about their natural +10 AC is more an issue now because Auto still 2 lets you wear green steel armor with no penalty giving all mages better AC, as a result giving PM's even more. Without that they or any mage would have to invest fully 3 feats to achieve that AC in the past(vanilla).

There are a number of counters already if you know what you are dealing with, something that is a valid IC RP reason to scout out your enemies and make a plan, since this is not an arena server. I am sure fully buffed they can be a pain for some characters, but are by no means invincible. At the end of the day seems something is in the works, so we will see how squishy they end up.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by The Rambling Midget » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:08 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 pm
Pale masters can't be of good alignment because in order to become pale masters they need to utilize animation magic, which is not a goodly act. It's been established however, that using that kind of magic does not instantly make a character evil.
While it's true that no single act instantly turns a character evil, becoming a Pale Master requires a long, arduous series of deliberate acts, along the course of which there are countless opportunities to re-evaluate the morality of the process. No one accidentally slips and falls into being a Pale Master on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I'm not saying that this means all Pale Masters have to be mustache twirling evil, but the process by which one achieves the status has to be taken into account when considering the spectrum of possible alignments at the end.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Twily » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:21 pm

I think neutral palemasters should be allowed, but more heavily filtered by the DM team than evil ones.

A part of the application for a Palemaster token for neutral would-be Palemasters requiring an extra explanation of why the character is neutral and how the palemaster concept fits into that neutral alignment. An explanation as to how the character plans to use the palemastery powers, their view on animation, etc.
(also meaning I think they should require tokens as well)


I don't really feel like it necessarily needs to be restricted to evil only, because the palemaster concept can fit in to a neutral character's concept quite solidly.
PvPers taking neutral for the sake of dodging smiter paladins and similar while actually being quite evil, is a concern I've heard players mention many times. How big of a problem this actually is, I don't know; although I feel it's one the DM team can handle pretty easily.


Mechanics wise, I don't really feel like they're that overpowered.
The free epic spells may be a little on the generous side, pulling out the free EDK for example might not be a bad idea.
Beyond that though, melee palemasters really do sacrifice a lot of melee power by going that route. Sure they become tanking gods, but without Divine Power being an option their AB, APR and Damage is always going to be outclassed by most other melee builds.

Undead can be a decent source of damage for them, but the RP implications of using these I feel is a fair trade off.
EDK is also a reliable source of damage as well and with no RP implication if using a prismatic, so I do feel this one might need some changes. (Mainly just making them need to spend a feat for it, so they can't get EDK, Hellball and Gruin all very easily.)
Last edited by Twily on Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Durvayas » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm

BHR55 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:41 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:29 pm
Ninjaturtle wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:25 pm
I've been trying to avoid stating the obvious, but I find the timing of the suggested nerf a bit concerning. The Palemaster update has been around for quite awhile, but we should now address their pvp capabilities, during a time of war in Andunor. It's obvious that the Palemaster is no more powerful than quite a few other cookie cutter builds. Why not focus instead on increasing the required skill level of other fighter classes, such as the weapon master since it been stated before, in order to make them more than just a one push button in pvp?
snip
I think he is more pointing out that Pale Masters seem to be winning the war for a given side, making it seem OP to some people. Rather than arguing, "But then I won't be able to win". Though I think if the powerhouses in this case suddenly become utterly obsolete, funny as it would be, would also make no sense.

I would argue that the parties fighting in this instance lack the obvious counters/natural predators to any PM being as Paladins are not common in the hub... nor are good aligned Druids in any numbers I have seen. YMMV.
The natural predator of a PM is a gonne firing squad.

As for the timing of the thread, it is mildly suspect, not because of the xyvilkor war per-se, but because of a prolific powerbuilder getting absolutely trashed by different PM a week prior, and I'm confident that Jack-oat knows that particular powerbuilder.

Regarding the Xyvilkor war. The PMs are not winning in the conventional sense so much as two groups run into eachother, the PMs kill everyone who doesn't have death ward up, but the heavies of both sides cannot kill eachother (a PM cannot spell to death a drow WM with high saves that is prepared for it, a drow WM has difficulty killing the PM for obvious reasons) and they disengage. So people are dying, but no VIP targets are getting killed. Its typical war skirmishing and business as usual in the UD.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:41 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm
BHR55 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:41 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:29 pm


snip
I think he is more pointing out that Pale Masters seem to be winning the war for a given side, making it seem OP to some people. Rather than arguing, "But then I won't be able to win". Though I think if the powerhouses in this case suddenly become utterly obsolete, funny as it would be, would also make no sense.

I would argue that the parties fighting in this instance lack the obvious counters/natural predators to any PM being as Paladins are not common in the hub... nor are good aligned Druids in any numbers I have seen. YMMV.
The natural predator of a PM is a gonne firing squad.

As for the timing of the thread, it is mildly suspect, not because of the xyvilkor war per-se, but because of a prolific powerbuilder getting absolutely trashed by different PM a week prior, and I'm confident that Jack-oat knows that particular powerbuilder.

Regarding the Xyvilkor war. The PMs are not winning in the conventional sense so much as two groups run into eachother, the PMs kill everyone who doesn't have death ward up, but the heavies of both sides cannot kill eachother (a PM cannot spell to death a drow WM with high saves that is prepared for it, a drow WM has difficulty killing the PM for obvious reasons) and they disengage. So people are dying, but no VIP targets are getting killed. Its typical war skirmishing and business as usual in the UD.
I don't really want to speculate about the first scenario one way or another. Nor do I deny the survivability of the class in general compared to a Pure mage, I do however think they are less "powerful" in most respects compared to more dedicated mages offensively, YMMV.

As far as the war is concerned I don't have a direct pony in that show, but to me watching a skirmish and disengage is more interesting RP wise vs one side whipping another and then no RP between factions for 24 hours. Again YMMV, opinions may differ, results may vary.

Killing unprepared peeps with a WOB/Weird/implosion/1HKO of choice can be accomplished by any mage/caster with high DC's. In the case of implosion/destruction/drown wards against necromancy wouldn't even help.

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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by The Rambling Midget » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:52 pm

Twily wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:21 pm
Mechanics wise, I don't really feel like they're that overpowered.
The free epic spells may be a little on the generous side, pulling out the free EDK for example might not be a bad idea.
Beyond that though, melee palemasters really do sacrifice a lot of melee power by going that route. Sure they become tanking gods, but without Divine Power being an option their AB, APR and Damage is always going to be outclassed by most other melee builds.

Undead can be a decent source of damage for them, but the RP implications of using these I feel is a fair trade off.
EDK is also a reliable source of damage as well and with no RP implication if using a prismatic, so I do feel this one might need some changes. (Mainly just making them need to spend a feat for it, so they can't get EDK, Hellball and Gruin all very easily.)
Another option to address all of this might be to split the various features into paths, like Harper and PDK. You're either good at summoning and casting or good at staying alive, but not both.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Durvayas » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:06 pm

BHR55 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:41 pm
Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm

The natural predator of a PM is a gonne firing squad.

As for the timing of the thread, it is mildly suspect, not because of the xyvilkor war per-se, but because of a prolific powerbuilder getting absolutely trashed by different PM a week prior, and I'm confident that Jack-oat knows that particular powerbuilder.

Regarding the Xyvilkor war. The PMs are not winning in the conventional sense so much as two groups run into eachother, the PMs kill everyone who doesn't have death ward up, but the heavies of both sides cannot kill eachother (a PM cannot spell to death a drow WM with high saves that is prepared for it, a drow WM has difficulty killing the PM for obvious reasons) and they disengage. So people are dying, but no VIP targets are getting killed. Its typical war skirmishing and business as usual in the UD.
I don't really want to speculate about the first scenario one way or another. Nor do I deny the survivability of the class in general compared to a Pure mage, I do however think they are less "powerful" in most respects compared to more dedicated mages offensively, YMMV.

As far as the war is concerned I don't have a direct pony in that show, but to me watching a skirmish and disengage is more interesting RP wise vs one side whipping another and then no RP between factions for 24 hours. Again YMMV, opinions may differ, results may vary.

Killing unprepared peeps with a WOB/Weird/implosion/1HKO of choice can be accomplished by any mage/caster with high DC's. In the case of implosion/destruction/drown wards against necromancy wouldn't even help.
I'm in agreement, it is more interesting to watch a war where both sides skirmish and disengage than where one side consistently wipes the floor with the other. Narratively, though, it prevents said war from being decisive one way or another, so there does come a point where people will grow tired of fighting in general because it becomes absurdly expensive to both sides.

There is historical precedence to exactly this in real history. Most wars in the middle ages lacked actual pitched battles. It was all about ruining the other side's territory(and winning seiges) until neither side really wanted to continue because it was too costly to or one side had a total positional advantage.
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:16 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:06 pm
BHR55 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:41 pm
Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm
...
...
I'm in agreement, it is more interesting to watch a war where both sides skirmish and disengage than where one side consistently wipes the floor with the other. Narratively, though, it prevents said war from being decisive one way or another, so there does come a point where people will grow tired of fighting in general because it becomes absurdly expensive to both sides.

There is historical precedence to exactly this in real history. Most wars in the middle ages lacked actual pitched battles. It was all about ruining the other side's territory(and winning seiges) until neither side really wanted to continue because it was too costly to or one side had a total positional advantage.
Historically accurate and forces people to talk at one point or another.

“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“The greatest victory is that which requires no battle.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Jack Oat
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Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:20 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm
As for the timing of the thread, it is mildly suspect, not because of the xyvilkor war per-se, but because of a prolific powerbuilder getting absolutely trashed by different PM a week prior, and I'm confident that Jack-oat knows that particular powerbuilder.
Nah fame. Hate to disappoint, but I don't really talk to other builders often and this thread wasn't posted as a knee-jerk reaction to any IC events. The dispel thread was, because dispels in PvE suck and I'm tired of some mage spawn in a lowbie area stripping me of literally every ward I have on.

This thread is the realized and submitted argument that I've been voicing elsewhere for the past few months or longer.

I have, however, seen a video circulating of a Palemaster killing like seven people with none of them being able to counter/kill them, and everyone involved was mid-upper epics. That was pretty funny, not gonna lie.


Edit:
Take your Xyvil'kor/Xun'viir war elsewhere. This is a thread about PMs and the need to nerf them, not ongoing IC actions.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


BHR55
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:18 pm

Re: Nerf Pale Master

Post by BHR55 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:32 pm

Jack Oat wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:20 pm
Durvayas wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm
As for the timing of the thread, it is mildly suspect, not because of the xyvilkor war per-se, but because of a prolific powerbuilder getting absolutely trashed by different PM a week prior, and I'm confident that Jack-oat knows that particular powerbuilder.
Nah fame. Hate to disappoint, but I don't really talk to other builders often and this thread wasn't posted as a knee-jerk reaction to any IC events. The dispel thread was, because dispels in PvE suck and I'm tired of some mage spawn in a lowbie area stripping me of literally every ward I have on.

This thread is the realized and submitted argument that I've been voicing elsewhere for the past few months or longer.

I have, however, seen a video circulating of a Palemaster killing like seven people with none of them being able to counter/kill them, and everyone involved was mid-upper epics. That was pretty funny, not gonna lie.


Edit:
Take your Xyvil'kor/Xun'viir war elsewhere. This is a thread about PMs and the need to nerf them, not ongoing IC actions.
Well on the subject of the video you have seen, I suspect I know the one, or similar. In the case of the video I am aware of none of the opposing side did any of the above mentioned counters. For a bard/PM it is certainly possible be hit a high AC tank. Its also really easy to strip them of all of their non EMA buffs(pretty sure the 1/2 caster level doesn't count for bard I could be wrong) and even maxed IGMS spam them down. I certainly know how I would personally deal with such an enemy and didn't see any of what I suggest done.

As far as discussion without knowing what is planned I think it is all moot. Some sort of nerf is incoming, we will see what it is and if it will make you happy.

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