Nerf Pale Master

[Sartain]

The social RP consequences for PMs are fairly harsh already (especially on the surface). Add more oil to the fire and we might reach a point where PMs would actually require a BUFF in order to make them even remotely fun or playable.

Honestly, I see more people angry at warlocks than I do palemasters.

And that logic isn't really sound, as I see it.
Pale Masters are, in effect, necromancers. They twist and enslave the souls of the departed, keeping them from their final rest and quite possibly also desecrate their mortal remains. Yes I know the summon function doesn't really indicate it but necromancy generally requires earthly remains to work with or the summoning of a departed soul. Not to mention that the ritual for creating a Dracolich is, as I remember it, is considering unspeakably Evil (capital-E, not the morally relativistic evil).
So however you cut it Necromancers are being nasty to the mortal remains of somebody's loved ones (and no, assuming that the remains you are defiling belongs to an evil person doesn't really make a difference) whereas Fiendlocks at least only summon Evil beings from another plane to serve them, and Feylocks just serve an odd and capricious patron.

Honestly I don't see how Pale Master can possibly get away with being Neutral alignment if necromancy is considered Evil. And from a mechanical standpoint it just seems a very convenient meta-gamey option too

[Astral]

The social RP consequences for PMs are fairly harsh already (especially on the surface). Add more oil to the fire and we might reach a point where PMs would actually require a BUFF in order to make them even remotely fun or playable.

Add a note on the examine check on PMs like outcasts. Because they smell bad and other visible signs of their replaced organs or whatever. then add an increased DC on their disguise check if they try to hide it of 2xPM lvl.

Example:
bob has 16 pm lvls.
bob has effecitve perform/bluff of 44.
when bob is undisguised he has a note in his description, giving him up as a pale master.
When bob is diguised he has 44 bluff/perfom for his standard diguise check and only 12 bluff perfom for disguising the note of PM in his description.

Yeah.. I dont know if it's a really good idea. But that's one way of making the class even harder to play so that's mostly an idea for a direction that can be taken in this. And I still think it's too strong mechanically. I didnt crack the numbers but when I got back from a break and I saw the changes my initial thought was that they shouldnt get the feats for free, OR that they should get them later than lvl 16th, forcing them to choose between bard dip, the free feats and lvl 9th spells.

[-XXX-]

Consider the OOC aspects of the gameplay for a moment. At this point you're essentially arguing points why playing a specific non-good aligned archetype of character should be even more difficult to play (both mechanically and from the RP standpoint).
Why should anyone put up with that rather than just making a new character (or go play other games)?

...or was making other players quit by making the game unfun for them the point all along?

[Sartain]

Consider the OOC aspects of the gameplay for a moment. At this point you're essentially arguing points why playing a specific non-good aligned archetype of character should be even more difficult to play (both mechanically and from the RP standpoint).
Why should anyone put up with that rather than just making a new character (or go play other games)?

...or was making other players quit by making the game unfun for them the point all along?

I'm not sure if you're referring to my comment specifically or just in general but as I see it there should be both design and philosophical consistency between classes and concepts: why is the Fiendlock (or the Blackguard, or Assassin) locked into Evil alignment but the PM can be neutral? If the PM can be neutral then that necessarily means that necromancy is not evil. If necromancy is not evil why is it treated as such all over the servers? If necromancy is not evil, why is summoning Fiends?

[Jack Oat]

This is a thread about the overpowered mechanics of the Pale Master class. Take your RP dilemmas and bluff arguments to a separate thread.

As a side note, for the second time, this thread can be locked.

[Sartain]

Yeah I kinda went off a tangent there although i'd say this is not an RP dilemma I'm illustrating but a design philosophy dissonance: some classes seem to have to adhere to different moral, mechanical standards.

Anyway in short, balance PM also by alignment in addition to other potential adjustments. PMs are not intended to have Hide From Smite

[DM Chatsworth]

This is a thread about the overpowered mechanics of the Pale Master class. Take your RP dilemmas and bluff arguments to a separate thread.

As a side note, for the second time, this thread can be locked.

Consider it locked.