How to improve Assassins

[Yolrii]

What do people think of giving Assassins the same benefits from the rogue grenades as rogues do, and having their rogue and assassin levels stack for activation?

[Sartain]

I think that until I saw this thread I just naturally assumed they already did

[Halibutthead]

this is not feedback. it's a suggestion.

he's literally asking for feedback on his idea, you can't get that in the suggestion box

[CosmicOrderV]

I'm not entirely sure assassins need to be improved much, but in the case of rogue grenades, I definitely feel like they ought -not- be locked behind rogue levels, at the very least.

Magic items, the shtick of many a caster, can be accessed via UMD. It's an item based feature of their class to use or create wands and scrolls, but anyone can potentially have access.

Then you have mundane grenades (and while I would totally justify an argument that science and magic are one-in-the-same, therefore these grenades shouldn't be available to just *anyone*), but only rogues can use them.

it seems like there ought to be a skill/cumulative class check to use these grenades. My personal thought is making the rogue grenades have a UMD DC, equal to 10 + however much rogue class level would be required.

It's still special to rogues, as they're the only creators, but it also opens a market for Rogue characters to sell these items. Not to mention, that would be a fairly hefty DC, so it would really require some dedication.

For example, the first rogue grenade is acquired at level 12, which means the lowest UMD required would be 22. Most folks don't go above 20. But at least they might have incentive to do so now.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Looking at the trend of design changes over the last two years, it seems like they want each class to have a major benefit for going at least heavy into it. The grenades are the rogues version of that, any tweaks to how it currently is and it becomes a splash class only again.

[Sea Shanties]

I'd say Assassin and Rogue (and perhaps Shadowdancer) levels should combine when it comes to the effectiveness of grenades. In particular choking powder seems like a natural for assassins to be able use as effectively as rogues.

Like CosmicOrderV said maybe only rogues could buy them, but assassins without the needed levels could perhaps use them as if they were a rogue of the same level (or of rogue+assassin combined levels.) Then they'd buy them for rogues or stockpile what they find in chests. Rogues would still have the advantage of being able to buy any time they wanted plus the half-dozen other amazing perks they get (armor, speed in stealth, weapon bonus etc etc etc) so letting assassins in on their tools doesn't seem out of order. Unless they also took rogue levels, dedicated assassins would never get the top tier level 24 grenades anyway-- but like I say they really could use that choking powder!

Having played one I think they're interesting. Not as good as pure rogues, but interesting. They're oddly much more suited for PVE than PVP with the ethereal visage and endless darkness/improved invisibility, all of which let you churn through enemies quite nicely but are nothing to a PVP target who knows the game. When it comes to a sneaky killing of a single target in PVP I'd say rogues and maybe monks are far more suited than a dedicated assassin. Though the extra damage with -assassinate certainly does help.

If there's one big thing I would change it's making them masters of disguise somehow. I don't know how, but it seems imperative for an assassin who wants to have a long career to be able to pull off disguises better than almost anyone else. Craftable "masks" that let you change to different head models temporarily for example could be useful.

Actually, make that two things. I'd like a way to be able to disguise "death attacks" as "sneak attacks" if you don't take rogue levels. I'm honestly not sure if the "death attack" label is OOC or IC info, but plenty of players will comment on it if they see you "death attack" so even if it is supposed to be OOC being an assassin is a tough secret to keep.

Or maybe even three things. You know what might be nice, if the DC for the "paralyze" was drastically increased so it had a very good chance of actually working when an assassin attacks out of stealth... But limit it to 1-3 rounds instead of 1 round per level so the victim has a chance to regroup after the initial stun.

[CosmicOrderV]

All of those ideas strike me as awesome, and actually bring to mind, how in the Assassin's Guild there's actually already npc's and scenery that suggest something along those face-changing mechanics. Anyone's who's been in there might recall the book showing off the surgeon's successful identity changes.

[Sartain]

If there's one big thing I would change it's making them masters of disguise somehow. I don't know how, but it seems imperative for an assassin who wants to have a long career to be able to pull off disguises better than almost anyone else. Craftable "masks" that let you change to different head models temporarily for example could be useful.

Oh yeah, this would be pretty awesome. Maybe tie it to level somehow, so lower level assassins just get bonuses to their disguise checks and higher levels get the masks. If it's possible, maybe even add an change of body-shape (within reason, obviously. No halfling to half-orc, but human to half-elf for example could be possible).

[Jack Oat]

Copy + Pasting one of my previous suggestions that I still stand by:

In this message I will break down the way the system works now and then flaws I see with it, followed by the suggestion and why I think it would be beneficial, concluding with potential criticisms I've received.

For the purpose of keeping these examples simple there will be three players used:
-The Client, who places the contract out
-The Assassin, who carries out the contract
-The Target, of whom the contract is placed against

---

The system now:

The Client speaks with the NPC Administrator of the Guild, puts in the name of the Target and a bounty amount of 100,000gp (a made up number).
The Assassin checks the contract board, sees the contract, hunts down the Target, kills them, uses the dagger on their body, and collects the 100,000gp bounty instantly to their inventory (with a 25% "Guild Fee" deducted).

---

The issues I see with this system:

1) RP as an Assassin isn't encouraged. On my last assassin I tried stalking a target to identify their weaknesses, was working on developing a plan to attack them, and before I could feasibly do any of that another person came up, dropped essentially one line of RP, and killed them. This left me somewhat bitter because it didn't feel as much like the mythical, legendary, targeted killers Assassins are in lore. It felt more like a back-alley thug hired to roll up and merc someone. To that end, there is no difference between a Lawful Evil Assassin who has a creed or code of some sort and won't take contracts except on certain things that they perceive "evil" and a Chaotic Evil Cyricist Assassin who would kill their own mother for five coin.

2) Interaction between the various parties is almost nonexistant. As a matter of fact, the only interaction between the three parties is when the Assassin goes in for the kill. There is no interaction as to who placed the bounty or why, literally just a murder.

3) The system is completely anonymous. This isn't an RP tool, it's a detriment. Many players feel that contracts may be placed for purely OOCly motivated reasons and, outside of the DM client/tools, there is no real way to check that. More than that, from an RP perspective it again limits what the three parties can do. Want the assassin you're hiring to leave a specific message? Nope, no dice. Hire someone outside the Guild.

4) It is hilariously easy for people like Settlement leaders or adventurers with lots of coin to pay of bounties with next-to-no regard, which doesn't seem particularly professional for an Assassin's Guild.

---

The proposed system:

The Client speaks with the NPC Administrator, gives them a bounty amount of 100,000gp (a made up number), and in turn receives a set of Contract Papers.
When the Client uses these papers, they have the ability to put in the target's name.
The Assassin goes to the Contract Board and sees that the Client has a contract available for 100,000gp.
The Assassin meets with the Client, gets the assignment, and then the Client gives the Assassin a Pull Tab from the Contract Papers that basically allows the Assassin to claim the bounty.
The Assassin finds the Target, kills them, uses the Pull Tab on the body, and the contract is considered complete. Any other Assassins who have Pull Tabs are changed to display that the contract is fulfilled, the Client is informed that the contract is fulfilled.
The Assassin takes the Pull Tab into the Administrator and turns it in for 90,000gp (with a 10% "Guild Fee" deducted).

---

The benefits I see from this system:

1) It encourages many different aspects of RP. For instance now Assassins actually have a reputation for their work. Trusted Assassins will earn themselves a name for not revealing the client no matter the circumstances, or for getting the job done to the letter. Clients can make special requests of messages to be delivered to the Target, or a specific way for the Target to be killed, or so on. Likewise an Assassin could potentially rat out the Client, forging another RP element into the mix, or only take contracts they see as "worthwhile."

2) "Paying off" the Guild would be more painful. Now you don't just get to pay off the Guild, you have to pay off each and every Assassin who comes after you, which racks up.

3) It removes the anonymity. A suggestion passed along was perhaps allowing Clients to use a pseudonym for their contract. That would make sense, but there are other RP methods to resolve this.

4) The lowered "Guild Fee" actually encourages lower-rate contracts to be taken since there's more of a pay-off.

5) When someone puts a tiny 10k bounty on a level 30 Weaponmaster, they can be laughed at appropriately.

---

The criticism & responses:

1) "What if a Client would prefer to remain anonymous?" Play carefully, either through the use of a "pseudonym" system or (and this would be easier) rely on Clients to play smart. Want to stay anonymous? Send someone else from your organization to take out the Contract Papers, or disguise yourself as an "assistant" and say that you represent whoever the Client is. Be selective with which Assassins you reveal your target to (this hearkens back to Assassins forging their own IC reputations).

2) "It doesn't really stop people from putting out low contracts for their buddies to take." No, but it encourages other avenues of RP, which the current system doesn't do.

[Twily]

I do think assassins need both structural RP changes as well as mechanical changes.
I focus on mechanical ones in my post since others have outlined the more RP side ones, and I think their posts all hold valid points and cover it better than I could.

On the mechanical front, the largest issue is something that is portrayed as a very key part of the class, Death Attack, is nearly useless.
-You need to be Int based for a good DC (which means lower AB)
-Requires a hit on the first attack (which means all int based won't work, you need AB)
-It doesn't work on any crit/sneak attack immune enemies
-Way to easy to get out of/Prevent
--Prays
--Remove Paralysis
--Freedom (Not only removes, but also prevents)
--Restoration/GRestoration
--Epic Dodge makes one immune
-On top of that there's a very easy to do and very hard to track exploit that will prevent death attack from firing(which I'm not stating here for obvious reasons)

All of this on top of the fact EE nerfed it, making it only one activation in the first flurry.


Another assassin benefit, Poisons, are nearly useless on most PCs due to DCs being too low(with the exception of a rare few custom poisons that are a huge pain to make), and being easily removable with a lesser resto/resto/gresto/pray/neutralizepoison/removedisease.


While reportable, Metagaming can also be an issue.
Once the cat is out of the bag, even if done to a rule breach, you can't stuff it back in the bag again.

---

What I'd suggest:
-Remove Death Attack feat entirely, replace with equivalent Sneak Attack.

Add the Death Attack stun as a selected ability with a cooldown that can be used mid combat, also granting an AB bonus equal to int mod on the attack.


These changes would drastically reduce the potential to be metagamed, it'd help int-based assassins be just a little more viable, and if a 1 turn cooldown is used it'd let an assassin try to buy time to re-stun their target if they use prays to get out of the stun.


As a less refined thought:
Reducing the death penalty for the victim of an assassination could be a way to help the victim have more fun despite the fact they're getting killed.



Also: Yay, My 1000th post!

[Yolrii]

I actually really like Jack's idea. Only issue is, the more interaction there is, the more risk of metagaming.

[Sartain]

I actually really like Jack's idea. Only issue is, the more interaction there is, the more risk of metagaming.

But it also opens up new avenues for RP

[Yolrii]

And spectacularly closes a few up in the process of said metagaming, too.

[Sartain]

I suppose. But then again, pretty much any and everything can be used for meta-gaming if you really want to, there is such a thing as too much pre-emptive restrictions

[ImWithThisGuy]

Heya. Just figured I would offer feedback as well, considering I've seen some of the impacts of assassin changes first hand. Feel free to skip to fixes, or read the TLDR only, because it's a long one.

I would say in agreement to others that assassins struggle in both realms of roleplay, and mechanical power. The former being far more serious of an issue in my opinion, as Arelith is a role-playing server. That said, it doesn't make the latter less true. I am pleasantly surprised to say I agree with Jack in that regard; assassins have very little encouragement to Role play in many cases. And he explained it very well. His suggestion is one that would also go a long way in fixing many of their current issues, and would add almost none.

However, I feel it goes one step further still, because assassins have even less reasons to Role play with each other; their own 'allies'. In fact, I would almost argue they have reasons to specifically not roleplay with each other. There are a few things suggesting this:

First) Open evil alignments.
Now, this is an inherently good idea, because it allows assassins of many different paths to work together.. Or against each other. And it is healthy roleplay to have some internal conflict, yet the guild is overflowing with it. It becomes only destructive at that point, and too difficult to justify building there; to risk it being torn down in an instant. TLDR: Imagine putting every underdark character into the same faction, and tell them to work together. It wouldn't end well, but that is how the guild currently is.

Second) No rules.
Fairly self explanatory; any member can do as they please. Theoretically, they can do anything from selling information or names from within the guild, allow a non-member, or a whole group into the guildhall without permission, and even attack or kill other members, all with NO CONSEQUENCE. This creates large issues in regards to what would (should?) be a secretive faction.
TLDR: Think of the Harpers, only they constantly stab each other in the back. On that note, a snippet from the Arelith Wiki on Harpers reads:

WARNING: If your Harper betrays the Harper Cell or outs other Harpers, they risk character deletion should they be killed, as Harpers do not tolerate outers/betrayers in their own cell.

Third) No Benefits.
Despite most contracts being low in price, working with other assassins makes even large ones significanly smaller. A 50,000 gold bounty(already five times the average) -25% from the guild share is 37,500. Split between two assassins is 18,750 each. Then assuming they each use a measly 5,000~ gold, they end up with a 13,000~ profit each (nearly 25% the original bounty).
TLDR: It's hard to compare the guild to open bounties, where you make at least 50% more, possibly double. With the added benefit of role-playing.


Fixes:

The first issue is automatically fixed by fixing the second. And that can be done easily by adding in vows to become a member. This creates a baseline, and keeps the members together, even when they struggle from their differences. Chaotic characters may be upset, or still cause issues, but there would be a means to limit what is acceptable or not. Something along the lines of: " The guild is for those who bear our guild's mark, And no others. Don't attack the other members; if you do raise a blade to one of us, you raise it to us all. Outing the other members is also prohibited. Failure to comply will result in a slow and painful death."

The third could be fixed in a few ways, but Jack did a much better job giving a fix for this, so I will simply agree with it.

There is one thing I did not mention above that I feel should be addressed as well. And that is the difficulty of properly role-playing an assassin. The easy part of playing an assassin is searching for your target. Gathering information, and forming a plan. It's also easy to drop two lines of roleplay before attacking, And it's easy to collect bounties.

However.. The hard part of playing an assassin is to do those in a fun, and inclusive way. Its hard to generate real roleplay for others to share in, that isn't just resurrecting a dead body. Nobody wants their character to get murdered(except crazy people). 'To kill someone, but make it fun'.. Is on a whole other level than 20 roleplay rating.

And.. even to my own dismay, I admit the best solution may be to raise the class to a 30 requirement. I would like to say there's another way, and please, if someone has one, share it- but I cant think of anything that would help correct the mindset the guild has had for years; The mindset of "place bounty, kill people, get gold." In character, of course, that's fine. But there are too many out of character examples of people misunderstanding, destroying roleplay, creating bad feels, or misusing power.

[CosmicOrderV]

Some really good points there. It's always felt like harpers were the designed counter for the assassin's guild, though maybe that's coincidence. It would definitely be nice to see the same sort of faction cohesion arise in the assassin's, as it does the harpers, and i dare say some of these changes might see it happen.

[TroubledWaters]

From a storyline perspective, Assassin RP seems mostly fine to me. Even if you are an Assassin, you don't need to be part of the Guild. You can be a bodyguard for a political PC or a hitman for a faction and there's nothing preventing you from that. You can even start your own hit squad and work with non-Assassin PCs, but I guess the regular Guild might not take too kindly to the competition.

With all that said, even if the Assassin's Guild does not like you setting up your own competitor guild, there's not a lot they can do about it as Assassins are mechanically undertuned and especially weak at PvP, even before -pray is taken into account. This issue negates any of the fear that PCs would ever have of Assassins and sucks the fun out of Assassin encounters for all parties involved. It's bad for the Assassin player as they know they can't kill anything that matches their level, it might temporarily feel good for a player that has killed an Assassin PC until they realize they were never in any danger to begin with, and it puts lower level characters in a frustrating spot as they are now the only suitable targets for level 30 Assassins.

A lot of this mechanical weakness is due to how easy it is to protect oneself from Death Attack. All you have to do is either:
-Freedom
-Epic Dodge
-Pray
-Attack something, anything at all
-Use any item to keep yourself in a combat state, literally just chug water and you are immune (this is cheating but you can say you are really thirsty or whatever)

I think that a lot of the problems with Assassins could be helped by reworking Death Attack into a cooldown-based skill that can be used in combat, perhaps with lower stun duration. Another option would be for Death Attack to trigger regardless of combat state for one round after the Assasssin exits stealth, again this could be set on cooldown if HiPS spam is a concern.

If the stun is considered too overpowered for the above changes, Death Attack would also be useful if it instead just lowered AC or CON with each hit. The CON reduction would pair nicely with poisons, and this would also prevent Freedom from outright blocking Death Attack.

If those kinds of reworks are not possible at this time, some other options to strengthen the class include:
-Adding more +INT Assassin gear or providing Assassins with +INT on certain levels, similar to the Paladin +WIS buff
-Improving poisons, which are extremely underpowered in PvP and most PvE contexts (I believe there was a thread on this awhile ago with good ideas)
-Adding +AB on certain Assassin levels
-Giving Assassins HiPS at some epic level, perhaps with feat requirements under that

I understand that there are some super shredder Assassin-based builds out there, particularly the kama half-orc, but those are understood to be very meta and run into the point where the character's story is built to fit the build, and not the other way around. The changes noted above or other similar ideas would actually provide some incentive to going deep Assassin and not just taking it to run meme builds.

[n00bdragon]

Mechanically assassins are fine. What Beamdog did to Death Attack is a shame but it's hardly a death sentence to the class. People look at Death Attack and go "Oh, it's too easy to avoid/remedy the paralyze" but honestly, if the only way you can think of to kill your target is to stab them in the face I wonder whether it is the class that is lacking or the player. That's not to excuse the class's issues, but highlight that it's not the most important issue ever. Whatever mechanical combat deficiencies assassins have compared to <insert your favorite build that makes attack rolls to win> they are minor compared to the overall class balance in the game and microscopic compared to the roleplay problems assassins have.

The major issues as I see it are that, while some (perhaps even the majority of) people are good and fun and willing to go along with stuff, there are always going to be bad apples that won't have any of it. Assassins rely too heavily on secrets and OOC cooperation from targets to not just act like complete tools. You might say "but there are rules against behaving badly" and you're right. There are, but rules only matter to people who don't break them, and once broken they don't fix the problems the rules were created to prevent.

[Durvayas]

The real thing hurting assassin RP right now is that there is almost no reason to use the assassin's guild.

• The merchant there is utterly trash (he sells traps(not even epic ones), and a six varieties of potion, but he only has ONE of each in stock. He does not sell poison.)
• There is no banker nearby, so unless you are going to make the trek to the guild with money on hand, you can't buy anything.
• There are three very small(1x1) round quarters (perpetually empty, only reason to use the guildhouse at all).
• There is a one-way source portal.(The hub is more convenient)

Aside from the quarters, the guildhouse is useless, and if you aren't living there, you have ZERO reason to go, so it is not a focal point for assassin RP. In fact, you can play an assassin and, after getting your dagger, never have reason to set foot in the guildhouse again. I know my PC personally hasn't been there in a year and a half, and she's easily the most prolific(due to being public and blatant) assassin on the server!

Checking bounties? You can do it in Andunor, near the hub, so there is a banker nearby, and many, many shopkeepers and shops.
Placing bounties? You can do it in Andunor, near the hub, so there is a banker nearby, and many, many shopkeepers and shops.

No, what assassins need to help foster assassin guild RP, is for their guildhouse to not be so hard to reach while it offers so very little. A set of portals to and from the guildhouse and the Andunor guildhouse closet would do WONDERS for making the actual assassin's guild guildhouse have a purpose.

Recently my assassin started seriously networking with other known assassins in the guild, and we've furnished the closet in the guild building in andunor, to use as effectively a murderer's clubhouse.

Also death attack is trash. The magic damage for chosen targets using -assassinate is nice, but I don't think its high enough to make up for the mechanical weakness of the class overall. The ability to generate poisons of both the edible and weapon variety (like archer path rangers generate arrows and rogues generate grenades) would be a sweet buff to assassins, considering the very lackluster effectiveness of poisons as a whole. At least having an unlimited supply of them would help a little.

[Sea Shanties]

There could definitely be more community in the guild. I could see ranks that are acquired through successful kills.. Maybe you give an alias when you join and that code name's successes are known to other guild members, so they know who the superstars are. Being able to use the guildhouse to hide and travel is a great idea too.

And maybe when using -assassinate 1/2 of their intelligence bonus could be applied to their AB to help with the low AB issue most assassins face.

[Beard Master Flex]

I'd give skill focus bluff at level 14, and ESF Bluff at 20 Assassin levels; bluff feels pretty thematic and disguise seems to be a theme attached to Assassin in a few other games as well.

As it stands you pretty much need to use your class epic bonus feats for Greater Dex so you can hit 40 Dexterity and the 15 Modifier; having a 1/2 Int Mod AB bonus to the assassinate target would be a great boon as well.

[Sea Shanties]

I'd give skill focus bluff at level 14, and ESF Bluff at 20 Assassin levels; bluff feels pretty thematic and disguise seems to be a theme attached to Assassin in a few other games as well.

Good idea though practically speaking only a very foolish assassin would take more than 19 levels... one of the last epic levels needs to be a class with a discipline dip.

[Beard Master Flex]

I'd give skill focus bluff at level 14, and ESF Bluff at 20 Assassin levels; bluff feels pretty thematic and disguise seems to be a theme attached to Assassin in a few other games as well.

Good idea though practically speaking only a very foolish assassin would take more than 19 levels... one of the last epic levels needs to be a class with a discipline dip.

I don't disagree! I just like to see something offered as an alternative + if no one takes 20 Assassin levels then they have no reason not to implement it!