Warlocks and epic spell focus.

[Cerk Evermoore]

What's the opinion of the community on warlocks at the moment? I don't often hear about warlocks tearing up PvP like the old days before the nerf, and I have always found the lack of access to the epic spell focuses really deprive warlocks of a lot of the utility abilities. In terms of summoned creature, EDK is vastly superior. In terms of direct damage, they are very viable. But due to the nature of the class they play it seems their tool kit is severely lacking.

I was wondering what the communities opinion on warlocks is, is there a lore reason why their spells cannot be epic? It just feels like if you play a warlock, a class that is heavily reliant on its summon. But just any random mage can summon something that's better at the price of one feat, meanwhile also has access to all the great utility spells.

I'm not saying warlocks suck, I am just saying they are very lackluster compared to other classes and options. I am curious what the communities opinion is on this, so I made this thread.

Please be kind and keep the flame wars out.

[Aftond]

I thoroughly enjoyed playing a warlock. The only annoying phase you have during leveling is early teens and then early epics.

The final tier summon is very strong, and can be kept out permanently and buffed. It won't work as a win button like edk does, but the earlier stated long duration of the summon makes it way more convenient.

The change that was made to them not that long ago is great, and made PvE even nicer to deal with.

The blasts are great since they basically ignore AC, in this age of palemasters.

I know little about any lore reason for not having epic spells, but maybe epic spells symbolize some sort of higher attainment. Like a wizard that studies a lot or a sorc that discovers more of their power. Warlocks however, get their powers from whatever being they pacted with. So it would be the beings choice to grant epic tier stuff. Likely not that common but dont quote me on that.

[CosmicOrderV]

I'm a huge fan of warlocks, and the state they're in presently, doesn't really have me inclined to play one. Short of listing a ton of suggestions, I think especially feylocks, ought to automatically get epic spell foci, when certain conditions are met.

[Richørd]

I'd rather have more warlocks than Pale Masters run around.

[RedGiant]

Giving one of the strongest, simplest classes in the game any more power or utility seems like a bad idea.

Warlock can keep a Balor out all day long, while EDK is a burst summons
Warlock can blast 2x a round for 15d6 + 15 (plus 10d4 neg.) + the invocation effect (e.g. ice storm +3d6 blud. + 12d6 cold).
Warlock blast now also has an additional beneficial effect on summons and a negative effect on the target
Warlock skills include disc., tumb., & umd.
Warlocks get uncanny dodge + innate damage reduction
Warlocks can wear many premium armors without interfering with their casting
Warlocks also have d8 HP progression and the type you are talking about can CON dump and almost ignore their casting stat
Warlocks get the more generous Bard skill progression

I realize I just almost rewrote their wiki article, but, Warlocks are very versatile and very strong. Pushing them into wizard territory without wizarding drawbacks will destroy what balance there is.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I understand all these strengths Red, but I would like to argue that the Baalor/ Pit Fiend while strong. Isn't as great as a Yugoloth Commander who you can summon as a weapon master with a gate scroll.

Eldrich blast is very excellent but in order to survive a hasted target who is tunneling you. You'll have to pull quite a lot of rabbits out of your hat. Or do the greatest grease stutter step kite ever. Something that certainly is not the /simplest/ class in the game.

I just feel, when you compare that to playing a sorcerer. Sorcerer just are pretty much a direct upgrade in every category except pve infinite casting damage.

Warlocks are simple in pve sure. But in pvp? There certainly are simpler and more effective classes. My cleric can heal, cast death spells have high DC CC. Summon the exact same summoned creatures as the warlock with minimal investment. Summon far more powerful creatures. Have access to my entire spell book. Ability to buff my party with all the useful cleric buffs. Ability to reliably destroy summoned creatures and still, I gain all the extra utility from epic spell focuses.

I don't play a warlock. But the fact some dude with a gate scroll can copy 50% of a warlocks power I find concerning.

[TimeAdept]

The Gate summons are much weaker than the T6 fiends, especially coming from a 30 warlock who will have 10 levels of epic caster level bonus, on a 7 round cooldown.

[Cerk Evermoore]

My apologies for any mechanical mistakes I made in my previous post.

[Sartain]

I've been playing around with a few warlocks recently and while they've all been low-level, looking at the stats and numbers makes me think they won't be PvP viable in any way since, as more or less already stated, most other classes can do it a lot easier and better than the Warlock can. Even the low level PvE seems a bit iffy, as their single summon is powerful but can't necessarily tank all enemies for them. I was thinking that their spell list could do with a bit an expansion, which I might give them a few more tricks and maybe some more crafting viability in terms of scrolls, wands and potions.

On the topic of Warlocks I was wondering, are they actually dependent on having high charisma like the Bard they're based on or could they actually dump-stat if they wanted to?

[Basementfellow]

On the topic of Warlocks I was wondering, are they actually dependent on having high charisma like the Bard they're based on or could they actually dump-stat if they wanted to?

They need 16 Charisma to be able to cast all their spells, most Warlocks don't take more than that. They don't get any DC spells worth investing in - although the Fiend Pact does get a damage bonus for their Eldritch Blasts based on their Charisma modifier.

[MissEvelyn]

On the topic of Warlocks I was wondering, are they actually dependent on having high charisma like the Bard they're based on or could they actually dump-stat if they wanted to?

They need 16 Charisma to be able to cast all their spells, most Warlocks don't take more than that. They don't get any DC spells worth investing in - although the Fiend Pact does get a damage bonus for their Eldritch Blasts based on their Charisma modifier.

The only time a Warlock (not Fey) would benefit from a higher Charisma, like 19, would be to get Quicken spell on 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells.

[Baron Saturday]

The only time a Warlock (not Fey) would benefit from a higher Charisma, like 19, would be to get Quicken spell on 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells.

Warlocks don't get access to spell slots above 6th regardless of their charisma, so cannot quicken anything above 2nd level spells.

[CosmicOrderV]

While a warlock may be able to keep a summons out all day long, as has been pointed out, other classes can do the same. Not only that, but dismissal/banishment/word of faith scroll all make pretty light work of summons in general. So their summons are more of a net neutral.

Also, the warlocks (bard) skill progression is only 4+INT; that's fairly average as far as classes goes. Yes, which skills they have access to are nice, but the norm when building is to class dip for those skills anyways. So again, net neutral.

I think my biggest issue with warlocks, at the moment, is that the class is very linear, which is something that's been an issue for bardic classes ever since the beginning. Despite charisma and wit being their archetypal problem solving tools, there's no point investing too much in CHA. It feels counter intuitive. For regular Bards, you go strength based, combo'ing bard song with curse song. For warlocks, it's fiendlock with high CON investment. Anything else is shooting yourself in the foot, and that kinda sucks.

Something else about warlocks I've always found lame, is the inability to cast a bard spell regularly. Eldritch Blast is always tagged onto it. What if I want to cast charm on someone without also blasting them in the face with a laser beam? It doesn't work.

So while a very particular warlock build is functional, let's not blow things out of proportion and try to say that warlocks shouldn't be re-evaluated.

[AskRyze]

Honestly in my personal opinion fiendlock is in a really great spot right now. It's very strong in PVE but not overpowering in PVP.


However I don't think the enchantment changes are nearly enough to keep Feylock's head above water. It's lackluster pvp coupled wit nearly nonexistent PVE means that a feylock is kinda shit out of luck unless they get someone else to carry them to the point where they become the party's hastebot.

[CosmicOrderV]

imagine with me...
Haks become a thing.

Warlocks get an Expanded spell-lists for a handful of utility cleric flavor spells (inflict wounds, doom, bane, bless, ect. Simple buffs that give it a mixed arcane/holy flare, reflective of their esoteric approach to magic.)
They no longer get unlimited spells. Normal access to all bard spells, but a new unlimited new spell. Eldritch Blast. This is the only spell that gets Eldritch Blast damage.
Both warlocks and bards receive bonus spell-slots attached to their token, based on their base charisma.
Both warlocks and bards receive Epic Spell Foci: Enchantment, at level 20, if they have base 20 CHA and Great Enchantment. (this comes one level earlier than other casters, in the same way that bards get charm spells a circle sooner than all other casters; 4th instead of 5th.)
Feylocks in particular get Epic Spell Foci: Illusion, if they have 20 CHA and Greater Illusion Foci, at level 17. (without access to sorc/wiz offensive illusion, this only comes as a cookie, and doesn't even offer mechanical power. The only DC illusion bard spell is Silence.)
All warlocks gain the Familiar ability, however, when summoned it's a scaling outsider reflective of their alignment. It has a -long- cooldown.
Feylock ditches the spell-like abilities, as it now gets normal bardic/warlock summons.

It's a trade-off of more adaptability, utility, and flavor, but with less access to the uber summons. So more balanced in terms of PvP versus PvE ?

I know I've committed social faux-pas by veering headlong into suggestion territory, but. I'm curious what others thing about this direction of mechanics. Warlocks and Bards that are rewarded for high CHA.

[Nobs]

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Warlock
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Hellfire_Warlock

[CosmicOrderV]

Those look rad!

The hellfire warlock prestige class looks like it would involve boosting the warlock's damage (Fiendlocks get CHA to damage, so that's already sorta satisfied), but also Elemental Shield as a spell-like ability. Which I guess is kind of what the Armor of Immolation we already have, does. Not as stream-lined as a class feature, but passable maybe.

The base warlock class seems to have a bonus to spell-craft and lore, representative of their esoteric knowledge. That would be a great one to see in arelith. Along with the ability to imbue items with spells the warlock cannot normally cast? That's a trip! Something I've always enjoyed about warlocks, is there reoccurring theme of material magic. Memories attached to an object, that one can read, or a spirit beckoned with use of something that once belonged to them in life. A strange relic that puts them in touch with an alien consciousness, thus resulting in a pact. Or maybe it's the classic sentient weapon, leaching off the user's life-force and each life it takes. I definitely think it'd be rad to see that sort of material aspect with warlocks in arelith, though I can't say I know any good ways to make that happen.

[Nobs]

And you get invocations that change your blast shape to a cone a aoe even a chain link blast its dope

[CptJonas]

Please dont talk about warlock...especialy about feylock....its makes me sad...
In current state of game (with nearly everyone having insainly high saves) you could basicly dumb stat charisma, becouse even if you max out it, you are still basicly hoping for them to roll 1, and just leting eldrich blast damage to carry you on....
They should realy get some other bonuses, and modifications to their spell list (two options there...more cool spells what doesnt need a save like maybe shapechange for feylock, or give them some endgame dangerous spell which actualy mean something for realy bad for your opponent when they roll 1 - Like for example flesh to stone)

[CptJonas]

imagine with me...
Haks become a thing.

Warlocks get an Expanded spell-lists for a handful of utility cleric flavor spells (inflict wounds, doom, bane, bless, ect. Simple buffs that give it a mixed arcane/holy flare, reflective of their esoteric approach to magic.)
They no longer get unlimited spells. Normal access to all bard spells, but a new unlimited new spell. Eldritch Blast. This is the only spell that gets Eldritch Blast damage.
Both warlocks and bards receive bonus spell-slots attached to their token, based on their base charisma.
Both warlocks and bards receive Epic Spell Foci: Enchantment, at level 20, if they have base 20 CHA and Great Enchantment. (this comes one level earlier than other casters, in the same way that bards get charm spells a circle sooner than all other casters; 4th instead of 5th.)
Feylocks in particular get Epic Spell Foci: Illusion, if they have 20 CHA and Greater Illusion Foci, at level 17. (without access to sorc/wiz offensive illusion, this only comes as a cookie, and doesn't even offer mechanical power. The only DC illusion bard spell is Silence.)
All warlocks gain the Familiar ability, however, when summoned it's a scaling outsider reflective of their alignment. It has a -long- cooldown.
Feylock ditches the spell-like abilities, as it now gets normal bardic/warlock summons.

It's a trade-off of more adaptability, utility, and flavor, but with less access to the uber summons. So more balanced in terms of PvP versus PvE ?

I know I've committed social faux-pas by veering headlong into suggestion territory, but. I'm curious what others thing about this direction of mechanics. Warlocks and Bards that are rewarded for high CHA.

I realy hope for some kind of rework like this.... +1

[Sartain]

I certainly wouldn't mind if the Warlock got a bit of love. Maybe be able to sustain 2 summons at a time (1 regular summon and 1 pact companion)?
Maybe let their pact summon -guard them, like the Shadowdancer?
Maybe let the fiendlock Bull's Strength be an automatic 5 and auto-buff summon(s) as well, like the Blackguard?

Giving them access to a couple of more spells wouldn't hurt either. They're obviously not meant to be bard-level in terms of spell access but a few more utility/buff spells seem like they might go a long way both in terms of making the 'lock less of a one-trick pony and also making it slightly less obvious what class you're playing

[CptJonas]

I certainly wouldn't mind if the Warlock got a bit of love. Maybe be able to sustain 2 summons at a time (1 regular summon and 1 pact companion)?
Maybe let their pact summon -guard them, like the Shadowdancer?
Maybe let the fiendlock Bull's Strength be an automatic 5 and auto-buff summon(s) as well, like the Blackguard?

Giving them access to a couple of more spells wouldn't hurt either. They're obviously not meant to be bard-level in terms of spell access but a few more utility/buff spells seem like they might go a long way both in terms of making the 'lock less of a one-trick pony and also making it slightly less obvious what class you're playing

All you said was from wrong side Aby/Inf Locks dont need as much as any buff or change....They are...lets say if not good, then atleast fine....

True problem lies in feylocks....

[Dr. B]

Fiendlocks are in a great spot. It's feylocks that need to be looked at. I still think they should get improved invisibility, at least as a band-aid. but this suggestion was rejected when I made it.

[TimeAdept]

This was my suggestion for Feylocks last time, though the Enchantment changes in general were a very ncice buff to Feylocks:

My personal darts to the dartboard for Feylock:

Eldritch Blast - Feywalk Binding: Gain Charisma modifier to blast damage while in stealth mode or Invisible: rewards the Feylock for being hidden, moving around, being annoying, vs the Fiendlock's very tanky hang out with summon approach.

Essence of Acid: Reduces the target's spell resistance for 4 rounds by 1/2/3/4 at level 4/12/20/28.

Essence of Lightning: Reduces the target's Reflex and Fortitude saves for 4 rounds by 1/2/3 at level 4/12/20. At level 28 this also applies to Will Saves. [This is done specifically to gate progression of will save reduction to avoid too much stacking with Mindfog, and reward pure feylocks who give up blackguard.)

Essence of Life-Burst: Affects Undead powerfully and can explode radiantly. Adds an extra 1d4 positive damage per 3 Warlock levels vs everyone, which radiates outward and affects all non-directly targetted undead within a small AoE as well.

These two above elemental abilities make Feylock a reducer of spell aligned statistics and Fiendlock a reducer of physical aligned statistics, again delineating them and giving them both roles. The Undead focused one serves as a polar opposite to the negative immune life stealing Fiend one, gives the Fey an option against mind immune undead, and gives them an AoE damage option that Feylocks lack outside Sound Burst

In miscellaneous non directly related changes - I think at some point the Shadow Conjuration summon should summon 3 shades not just two, and their AI tweaked a bit so that them running into Mindfog doesn't immediately make them run at you murderously. I think the spell list could also use some reviewing - unlike Fiendlock, they have redundant spells (hold monster vs hold person) that are retained on their list unlike Fiendlock.