Gond - Trickery and Deceit?!

[Richørd]

First I'll provide the wiki link to daddy Gond ...
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gond#3e

So. This is feedback and a question at the same time. I think it is unfitting for Gond to have that trait next to Knowledge and Invention (which hits the nail right on the head btw).
So why wasn't he given anything else than Trickery and Deceit? Was it just to have more representation in that area and Gond just happened to be picked at random to join the "Pass a failed disguise check" - crowd?

This is just super confusing IMHO.

[Xerah]

It's actually the most fitting since one of Gond's objectives to is subvert Mystra's magical advances.

[Richørd]

It's actually the most fitting since one of Gond's objectives to is subvert Mystra's magical advances.

Is there a source for that somewhere? All the sources I managed to find rather show the opposite. Mystra is more worried about Gond performing technological miracles without any use of magic than the other way around. Gond instead views magic as a tool to work into his creations and advance them.

[Xerah]

It's talked about in Elminster's Forgotten Realms.

[Richørd]

It's talked about in Elminster's Forgotten Realms.

Elminster Aumar? The mage? The bookseries? Is there a more detailed source? I'm simply still curious where the "Trickery and Deceit" factor comes from.

[Baron Saturday]

Did some googling and turned up this quote from the source Xerah mentioned:

Eliminate spellcasters who openly deride, hate or fear inventions and mechanics - covertly, whenever possible, but openly if you must. To the public, magic and mechanics are not at war. Privately, they are deadly foes. So smile and be an ally in public, but await a good chance to smite spellcasters who denigrate or oppose Gond.

[Opustus]

If the deity system is meant to guide character behaviour to something that performs the role of a servant to Gond, I can't imagine many characters bridging the actions of disguise and stealth with the divine plan of Gond, the Lord of All Smiths. I think it's a fair argument that the deity mechanic should feel intuitive to the player and the way in which they RP their character rather than be based on some inconspicuous footnote of Ed Greenwood's prose.

[Xerah]

It's not a footnote, it's an entire page is a forgotten realms source book.

[Queen Titania]

The second aspect is a bit of a minor detail to dispute, and we can always add it to Gond's arelith wiki page if people want more detail on why T&D makes sense.

[Baron Saturday]

An update to the wiki page would be very handy for those without access to the source material, since most of the readily available info online really doesn't point towards trickery.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

Honestly, that quote reads to me more that Mystra's people started the war, so Gondar's should end it. Which is less trickery and deceit so much as not backing down from instigation. On the other hand, I can see why it was read that way as well though I read it as not starting public fights unless you have to as it does cause an awful mess after all.

It's one of those material fluffs that your mileage may vary on it.

[Xerah]

Here is what the full text says for the secular aims:

Gondsmen are formally styled Wonderbringers, but since Gond himself is “The Wonderbringer,” they prefer to address each other as Fellow Artificer, Brother Artificer, or Sister Artificer. They subscribe to both a public creed (above), and a secret creed. Their secret creed is as follows:
Influence or control every ruler possible, so the works of Gond will be embraced by—and forced on, if need be—everyone, smashing guilds and others who won’t champion them. Covertly enrich oneself personally by selling Gondar wonders and by cheaply buying up the lands and buildings of those ruined by competition over such wonders.

Work to become so wealthy that you can live like a king—and overwhelm and subsume the church of Waukeen, just as Gond shall conquer and wed Waukeen herself. Whenever a wizard or other wielder-of-Art destroys something mechanical or its maker without just personal cause, avenge that blow. Eliminate spellcasters who openly deride, hate, or fear inventions and mechanics—covertly, whenever possible, but openly if you must. To the public, magic and mechanics are not at war. Privately, they are deadly foes. So smile and be an ally in public, but await a good chance to smite spellcasters who denigrate or oppose Gond.

Both the stationary Gondsmen in Waterdeep, Athkatla, Selgaunt, Saerloon, Baldur’s Gate, and the other burgeoning cities of the Realms, and the majority who wander, include ambitious individuals who hunger for power and wealth. They tend to be bold but to think ahead, establishing hidey-holes for caches of weapons and transport vehicles, inventions that entrap intruders, and wealth. Every one of them has plans of his or her own, for Gond doesn’t seem to mind his clergy doing well for themselves so long as they use inventions, modify inventions, and stir others to invent and innovate as they proceed.

Hundreds of Gondsmen scheme to make themselves “coin mountains” or rulers or both, just as soon as they can. One example is the goldeneyed and urbane Aersilk Krondamar in Athkatla. Another is the striding, whirlwind-swift “Mad” Madeenan Breldart, who races around the Heartlands selling small disguised pistols and blades that fold down into scroll tubes, all the while aiding inventors and shopkeepers who want to mechanize things. Some Gondsmen are bound to succeed—or blow up Faerûn trying.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

Well now.

That's legit.

Keep it Trickery and Deceit. It fits better then the other categories regardless. However, I would argue that it still doesn't really seem to fit for subverting Mystra. But the rest of that. Wow. Yeah.

Edits: Because I cannot seem to put together sentences well today.

[Xerah]

I've always loved Gond, but when I read that, he moved all the way to the top.

[Sea Shanties]

If this schism is something to push people towards it might be nice to have an avenue for making artifices, contraptions and devices separate from the standard wizard spellbook. It’s tough to play a Gondite who’s against Mystra if they’re both using the same spells and wands.

[Opustus]

Never read the bit about Gondars' covert operations so I made the assumption it was more of a footnote than a central theme worked into common lore for Gond. If people like it, it's plenty enough to justify its use!

Here is what the full text says for the secular aims:

Gondsmen are formally styled Wonderbringers, but since Gond himself is “The Wonderbringer,” they prefer to address each other as Fellow Artificer, Brother Artificer, or Sister Artificer. They subscribe to both a public creed (above), and a secret creed. Their secret creed is as follows:
Influence or control every ruler possible, so the works of Gond will be embraced by—and forced on, if need be—everyone, smashing guilds and others who won’t champion them. Covertly enrich oneself personally by selling Gondar wonders and by cheaply buying up the lands and buildings of those ruined by competition over such wonders.

Work to become so wealthy that you can live like a king—and overwhelm and subsume the church of Waukeen, just as Gond shall conquer and wed Waukeen herself. Whenever a wizard or other wielder-of-Art destroys something mechanical or its maker without just personal cause, avenge that blow. Eliminate spellcasters who openly deride, hate, or fear inventions and mechanics—covertly, whenever possible, but openly if you must. To the public, magic and mechanics are not at war. Privately, they are deadly foes. So smile and be an ally in public, but await a good chance to smite spellcasters who denigrate or oppose Gond.

Both the stationary Gondsmen in Waterdeep, Athkatla, Selgaunt, Saerloon, Baldur’s Gate, and the other burgeoning cities of the Realms, and the majority who wander, include ambitious individuals who hunger for power and wealth. They tend to be bold but to think ahead, establishing hidey-holes for caches of weapons and transport vehicles, inventions that entrap intruders, and wealth. Every one of them has plans of his or her own, for Gond doesn’t seem to mind his clergy doing well for themselves so long as they use inventions, modify inventions, and stir others to invent and innovate as they proceed.

Hundreds of Gondsmen scheme to make themselves “coin mountains” or rulers or both, just as soon as they can. One example is the goldeneyed and urbane Aersilk Krondamar in Athkatla. Another is the striding, whirlwind-swift “Mad” Madeenan Breldart, who races around the Heartlands selling small disguised pistols and blades that fold down into scroll tubes, all the while aiding inventors and shopkeepers who want to mechanize things. Some Gondsmen are bound to succeed—or blow up Faerûn trying.

I'm pretty sure Ed Greenwood read an Ayn Rand novel before writing this!

[Xerah]

If this schism is something to push people towards it might be nice to have an avenue for making artifices, contraptions and devices separate from the standard wizard spellbook. It’s tough to play a Gondite who’s against Mystra if they’re both using the same spells and wands.

There are the rogue grenades and the other bombs plus you're free to rename/describe wands (which is what I did).