Enchanting

[Zavandar]

I invested in something I thought I would keep and have made it a large part of my RP. I didn't invest in "too much" of anything, but I'll note your attempt to arbitrarily illegitimize my argument. Enchantment was a weak school. It wasn't something someone wanting a lot of power would've taken. You know this.

The enchanting market is going to see a flood of new providers and the market only a few had access to is no longer exclusive. I've accepted that. I'm sad, but I've accepted that. For the sake of consistency and sanity, I just suggest that the developers go ALL the way and make wizard scribe scroll count. Or, as others have suggested, make ESF: Enchanting count.

[Basementfellow]

Making ESF: Enchantment count towards Dweomercraft would kinda defeat the purpose of the change, no?

I agree though, there's no reason Wizard's Scribe Scroll shouldn't count. If this change was made for consistency's sake, then this exemption also defeats the purpose.

[Orian_666]

Yea I think the "make ESF: Enchantment count" argument needs to be dropped at this point, it would make the change redundant and defy the point of the change.
That said though i'm still of the opinion that Wizard Scribe Scroll should count.
The point made earlier of the IG conversation of a Wizard telling someone how to get better at it, but they have to claim that scribe scroll only counts for non wizards because otherwise it'd be "unfair" is a good one, and it's not even unfair. The ability is now waaaayyy more achievable by quite a few classes, we will definitely see a lot more Dweomorcrafters than we had Enchanters, so I see no logical issue with letting the scribe scroll count for wizards. Maybe even for Spellswords too, they are essentially masters of imbuing magic onto equipment after all....

[magistrasa]

Thinking about it more, I wholeheartedly agree that feats should apply the same across the board - either scribe scroll works, or it doesn't. Similarly, I think spellswords should count as full casters, for the above-mentioned reason that they're a class whose whole mechanics are dedicated to putting magical properties onto items. I'd imagine there should be some crossover that applies to proficiency in dweomercrafting. I see why that's not the case from a balanced design perspective, but I believe the amount to it would offset that balance is minor at worst, and I think it's a better choice to go with the logical connections here.

If that's not to your liking, a separate point entirely: I think the argument could be made that ESF: Transmutation should count towards dweomercraft tiers, since, again, item enchantment is transmutative anyways. It would certainly make up for the fact that their -command is, imo, really lame lol. Maybe it could come with teleportation being removed from Transmutation focii investment entirely, since that's stupid for the same reason item enchantment from enchantment focii was.

[Halibutthead]

i know i've said otherwise on an earlier post about scribe scroll, but here's the truth of it. either scribe scroll should count for wizards, or it should not count for anyone.

scribe scroll as a free feat at level 1 is consistent with the wizards' free feats at every 5 levels. the difference is, you only have one option: scribe scroll. ergo, it's essentially, for all intents and purposes, the level 1 bonus feat for wizards. you just don't have another option.

to say "no, no, that one doesn't count because it's a level 1 bonus feat you didn't get to pick" is inconsistent and illogical.

[Xerah]

The wish from the Admins was that there was at least some investment other than just taking class levels, thus scribe scroll does not count. It's kind of a non-starter.

[Zavandar]

Then I must implore the admins to reconsider.

I say this as someone that was hurt by more enchanters entering the market. I still think it would be better for wizard scribe scroll (and thusly there being more competitors) to work. It makes sense from a canon perspective, it saves the headache of a lot of rebuilds, and it makes the change not negatively affect a lot of established characters. And if giving more people access to enchantment was also the goal, it achieves that too.

[Orian_666]

I think the logic that "at least some investment other than just taking class levels" is the reason is simply bad.

As it is there are, on the server, a lot of very standard and very common builds that are considered the "best" way to go, you'll find it in any game with a large variety of how you can create your characters so that's fine. In a lot of cases these builds are guaranteed to get full tier 3 dweomarcraft simply because scribing or wands was a "vital" part of that build in the first place, so technically speaking there are plenty of builds that will get it "for free" without some other investment which kind of nullifies the reasoning behind the decision.

As it stands the reason for not having it count is one based on a class getting the ability essentially for free, something that is going to happen with a lot of standard popular builds anyway. On the flip side this may, in rare occasions, actually become an issue IG/IC when someone makes an obscure wizard build that doesn't take potions or wands and they're asked to do some enchanting. When they say "Sorry buddy, but i'm actually not the best at that" they may then have to explain, as was pointed out earlier, that even though they can scribe scrolls like a bunch of other "Master" dweomercrafters they are still incapable of the top tier stuff under the skill.... for a reason they cannot explain in game.

I can, to an extent, understand the reasoning behind it, I just feel it's bad reasoning that holds little to no positive impact on the changes but has the potential, albeit extremely rare chance for it to happen, for there to be a very awkward and unexplained situation IC.

Now don't get me wrong, my wizard has craft wand so he's fine either way, i'd just like to make it clear that my arguing this isn't from a place of bias, but simply because I genuinely believe the decision is a bad one. Not the be all end all of bad decisions lol, but bad enough that it's at least worth making a decent case against.

[Hazard]

I'd also like to add that I support the idea that a Wizard's scribe-scroll feat should count, DESPITE it not affecting me. I have never made a wizard without both wand and potion feats, but I feel for anyone who did! Sucks.

[Sea Shanties]

If it was any class but wizard affected I would agree that there should be investment but creating magic items seems the definition of what a wizard is supposed to be, like clerics raising the dead.

C'mon, just give it to them! That would pretty much eliminate the need for rebuilds and grandfathering too, win-win.

[Baron Saturday]

I think the logic that "at least some investment other than just taking class levels" is the reason is simply bad.

As it is there are, on the server, a lot of very standard and very common builds that are considered the "best" way to go, you'll find it in any game with a large variety of how you can create your characters so that's fine. In a lot of cases these builds are guaranteed to get full tier 3 dweomarcraft simply because scribing or wands was a "vital" part of that build in the first place, so technically speaking there are plenty of builds that will get it "for free" without some other investment which kind of nullifies the reasoning behind the decision.

Of all the cookie-cutter builds, which I would consider to be the "very common builds that are the 'best' way to go," only wizard and caster cleric have T3 dweomercraft baked in. Even then, the caster cleric sacrifices Empower Spell for it, while the wizard sacrifices a 4th ESF.

[Nitro]

Amusingly, a human sorcerer picking all three magical crafting feats can be a top tier dweomercrafter at level 3, a wizard cannot unless they take a useless skill focus feat. I think it's a pretty weird state where a sorcerer will naturally become a high-tier dweomercrafter faster than a wizard taking the same feats simply because the wizards baked in scribe scroll doesn't count, especially since it's wizards that are supposed to be the ones better at doing magical item creation.

[Xerah]

Not true at all.

You need to be level 21 to be a tier three

[Baron Saturday]

Amusingly, a human sorcerer picking all three magical crafting feats can be a top tier dweomercrafter at level 3, a wizard cannot unless they take a useless skill focus feat. I think it's a pretty weird state where a sorcerer will naturally become a high-tier dweomercrafter faster than a wizard taking the same feats simply because the wizards baked in scribe scroll doesn't count, especially since it's wizards that are supposed to be the ones better at doing magical item creation.

They can qualify for T3 dweomercraft at level 3, but they still need to be level 21 to get the benefits.

Dweomercraft Tiers are gated by character level. A character can only achieve Tier II at level 12 or higher, and Tier III at level 21 or higher.

[RedGiant]

I feel Rick's pain on a theoretical level, as most know me here as a general antagonist of having the deal changed on players.

I am also a vocal supporter of grandfathering or relvelling in the cases where balance decisions require the change.

That being said, I think we are fundamentally in some new territory here. I don't think this was a balance decision per se, as it definitely seems more thematic. Obviously, this doesn't change the calculus much, since the staff still has this prerogative to make such changes.

As a way forward, I would practically say to you, Rick, that the staff seems flat against allowing the wizard scribe feat counting toward the tier. I would beg for granfathering, knowing that even this is a flat %5 basin chance in light of their existing offer...pending any god save from Irongron (similarly unlikely since the Admins asked for the change).

Personally, and maybe I shouldn't gloat, but this is a flat UPGRADE to most of my casting characters, since I seemingly cannot help but throw in item creation feats.

Wooooo!

But now that my personal celebration is done, I actually think this is a huge boon once we get past the initial pain. Now the magic item business and its associated concepts are open to all sort of different invested characters. It is still easy for a Wizard to be great at it (literally levels + 1 feat). The enchanting school itself, which is still best maximized by a WIZARD, has received much needed love with a possible NEW and ADDITIONAL boon in the pipeline. I personally am greatly enthused by all of this. I recommend we sit tight and see what the staff has in store.

[Zavandar]

I'd rather not beg for anything, especially grandfathering. I'm not looking for special treatment. I'd rather scribe scroll from wizards be allowed because of change brought about by sound discussion.

[Twily]

Long term, this update makes 'enchanting' as it was called before more accessible as a whole, which I feel is a very good thing.
Enchanters I saw were often so overbooked on orders that they were refusing to take more, and I've had characters who hit L30 without having +2 skills on any of their things because finding an enchanter willing to take an order is such a pain at times. Several times I saw people say that you need to get 'in' with an enchanting friend to get gear, or that they had a real world friend or acquaintance make an enchanter to make gear for eachother.

I would say that some minor tweaks may be needed.
Most notably, I do feel like arcane primary caster classes should have a slight advantage over divine caster classes.
(although I suppose this is already enforced in it's own way due to language restrictions on runes, and arcanists being the ones that generally know more languages(aside from 'divine' languages))

Druids are already incentivized to go pure, so having them on the hybrid caster list wouldn't really hurt them all that much(Plus item imbuement and manipulation doesn't really seem like too much of a 'druid' thing to me).
Clerics I'm not really sure on.

---

I can sympathize with those who say their character's roleplay has been interrupted by this change, as I've had updates do that to my characters several times before.

Are there some characters who's roleplay is so set on being an enchanter that they can't really ditch the Enchantment feats to snatch the craft feat?
Without a doubt there are, but you have a chance at a rebuild and you can go a new direction with your character, this isn't an option everyone had.
I can promise the enjoyment of your character isn't based solely on their ability to enchant gear perfectly, and you have a chance to take a new turn.

The sad reality is, Nothing is set in stone on Arelith.
The character you have today may not be the same tomorrow, such has been seen time and time again. We get really attached to our characters, understandably with how many hours are put into them, but that doesn't mean we get to decide what changes do and don't happen to the server.

Kensai dealt with it several times, warlocks dealt with it several times, barbarians dealt with it several times, even spellswords have had their share of nerfs/tweaks, it's just a part of Arelith; and now it's enchanters turn.


It sucks, but as someone who has been through it myself, I can say that trying to cling to how my character was only made things worse; it wasn't until I accepted that my character had to go a new direction that I started enjoying that character once again.
It's a character's past that defines them, their friends, the factions they're in.
The best advice I can give is to let the change become a part of your character's past, and let it influence your character moving forward.

[monkeywithstick]

If we have a requirement it needs investment: My earlier suggestion of "has 4/5 Epic spell foci" still makes sense to me.
We require a lot of investment into technical mastery of magic, 5 ESF builds are not optimal really and 4 required some sacrifice in my experience (so how many is the gateway can be set depending on how broad this needs to apply), it doesn't bias towards a specific school, and the idea that someone who has mastered the casting of spells to that degree can enchant better makes a certain intuitive sense (at least to me)

[Ebonstar]

That's great that you can make a build that can enchant.

Not every existing build, which were planned around ESF: Enchantment, can without making big sacrifices.

work with the dms as they have offered and recreate your toon

and I mentioned this in the kudos thread that should bring a bit of clarity to what this change brings to light.

two words and one name Aegis Fang and Bruenor Battlehammer

sure as hell wasnt an enchanter but made one hell of a relic item

[Zavandar]

That's great that you can make a build that can enchant.

Not every existing build, which were planned around ESF: Enchantment, can without making big sacrifices.

work with the dms as they have offered and recreate your toon

and I mentioned this in the kudos thread that should bring a bit of clarity to what this change brings to light.

two words and one name Aegis Fang and Bruenor Battlehammer

sure as hell wasnt an enchanter but made one hell of a relic item

I can't recreate my character without losing functionality. I've been over this. I know the option for releveling is there.

This is a feedback thread. If I was okay with the changes and releveling, I wouldn't have made it. Please stay on task.

[Zed]

My thoughts on this whole thing is I feel fine with the changes. And my,older enchanting character bisik would have been able to remake just fine.

However I feel like wizards are being shoved out into the cold and I feel like while everyones concerns here are valid... I dont think scribe scroll should count.

BIG BUT HERE:


BUT I think they should get some sort of flavor because of thw fact that wizards are looked at as the magical item crafters over clerics and druids.

Adding somthing to the class for the investment would be great and relieve some pressure

[Ebonstar]

My thoughts on this whole thing is I feel fine with the changes. ....

BUT I think they should get some sort of flavor because of thw fact that wizards are looked at as the magical item crafters over clerics and druids.

Adding somthing to the class for the investment would be great and relieve some pressure

not true

Mages are ones looked for to add enhancement, They do not, although some exceptions exist create what they are asked to enchant.

Maybe the cookie for esf enchantment can be a special few spells that only those die hard devoted enchanters can have access too sorta like canon 10 level magic, that " doesnt exist anymore"

And with when we add haks those spells will be simple to add in

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The issue is you've invested too much in power and are actually losing something for it, right?

If this were the case I'd agree with you. However, let us not forget, that such woe and lack of power was there unto enchantment (the investment), that this change was brought up and discussed, and implemented (with some extracurricular additions) to give enchantment a buff - so no, it wasn't an investment in power. In fact, some people that suggested that enchantment as a school wasn't weak were sort of blatantly told they were wrong in that thread, if my memory serves.

So the investment was into item creation - not optimization.

In my opinion, if I were to field something in the field that is "more fair" so that wizards didn't have the unilateral advantage on magic item crafting that they actually have in the game both mechanically and lore-wise, I would suggest tying it only to caster level, with tier 1 at 10, tier 2 at 20, and tier 3 at 28 - which would've provided a unilateral "pure class" cookie to all casting types, while penalizing none of the pre-existing builds.

But hindsight is 20/20.

Edit: Just like this edit- the mundanes could still use feats to acquire crafting*, and hybrid casters could still use feats to get to the next tier - at the appropriate levels.

[vaclavc]

I agree that lorewise, wizards should be the best dweomercrafters.
What surprises me here is the clear intention of the DEVs to make enchanting more accessible. This change will result in much better availability of enchanted gear for anyone and for more wands/scrolls/potions being sold in shops.
I am not saying it is good or bad, just not my cup of tea, as Arelith is moving towards high magic environment more and more.
-V-

[Ebonstar]

I agree that lorewise, wizards should be the best dweomercrafters.
What surprises me here is the clear intention of the DEVs to make enchanting more accessible. This change will result in much better availability of enchanted gear for anyone and for more wands/scrolls/potions being sold in shops.
I am not saying it is good or bad, just not my cup of tea, as Arelith is moving towards high magic environment more and more.
-V-

hello we play in the forgotten realms, high magic has always existed or we would be like those servers that cap before you hit level 6 spells