Enchanting

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Fionn
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Fionn » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:48 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:51 am
The update costs something. A brew feat or skill focus that was never optimal to begin with. It looks like the whole enchanting spell line is being reworked to be competitive, and with that increased power it costs something for enchanters to obtain Tier 3. IMO, it seems fairly quid pro quo.
I'll disagree that item creation feats weren't 'optimal' It's what I made my caster to do. Others dipped Bard, Rogue or Harper to adventure. I understood I'd need to make friends to either bring me stuff from their adventures or guard me on mine. Making wands and rings was one of the things I could bring value to my group.

Wiz/Clr/Drd 24+ and Craft Wand is now T3. Bard/Rgr/Pal 21+ and Craft Wand is now T2. They can now take ESF:Craft to get T3 (or twice if they want uber CPs and don't care about wands). This really decouples Enchanting from Wizards. While I like seeing Clerics get some more love on that, this seems to make it far to generic IMO.

That said, it lets my mage rethink W30 and ESF in favor of maybe being able to adventure. Bit of a personality change, but that can work. Too bad I don't have a Greater handy to Deep Imaskari at the same point ;)
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WanderingPoet
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Re: Enchanting

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:06 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:12 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:07 am
Wizards are flush with feats. It’s not an exchange of an epic feat. Take wands, potions or any of the non epic crafting feats. Plenty of options out there.
It's a significantly bigger sacrifice if you take PM or harper levels, or are a non-human/non-gnome. You essentially have to give up an epic spell or an ESF. It's not nothing.

Three ESFs is right at the point where you start seriously considering why you're a wizard and not a sorcerer who'd do everything you want to do but better.
Untrue, sorcerers and wizards play very differently; you can't replace one with the other. Wizards get 17 feats with 26 wizard compared to a sorcerer's 12, with both required to spend a feat to get Tier III dweomering - which means a wizard easily gets 2 extra ESF. If wizard's scribe scroll counted, not only would they have the very-useful feat, but free tier III just for playing a wizard, which isn't really fair - especially since they also have the most skill points of any casting class. That doesn't include druids/clerics that might want to get into dweomering (of which I know two) that have as few feats as a sorc but essentially no use for enchantment.

If you are a palemaster then you get 5 free/bonus feats which makes up for the 4-5 lost wizard feats.

Harper, assuming you mean harper mage, gets two bonus feats which can be used for ESF discipline/spellcraft (or craft armor/weapon to unlock tier 3!) as well as ESF concentration, SF Spellcraft and two auto-quickens. So they get 6 free/bonus feats in total, which makes up for the 2-3 lost wizard feats.

I'm unclear how is that a bigger sacrifice to end up with equal or more feats. Wizards get plenty enough pre-epic feats to no lose any epic spells/ESFs to pick up craft wand.

--------
Overall I like the change - and I like how relevel/remakes are offered to help out people that have suddenly lost functionality. It's nice that it's not locked to a couple classes (with 2/3 of the classes hurting themselves to get it) as it opens a lot of different RP pathes and just easier access to gear.

If anything I wish it took -more- of an investment, personally. It's a bit weird that every single Primary Caster that has taken craft wand suddenly is a master dweomer and people that've had a business in the field are suddenly stuck with a horde of equals. I think it'd be better if for every 15 levels you got a tier up - meaning that you'd have to invest in 2 crafting feats (and let scribe scroll count for wizards, here), but someone that is fully level 30 in a caster class only has to spend one feat as a bonus. That way you -can- be good at dweomering, but you have to work for it, letting people that really want to focus on it do so. It'd let most people easily make +2 gear but allow anyone access to the higher tiers if they spec for it.

It's nice that it's more open, especially to paladins/rangers/bards/mundanes, but it's a shame that most casters get tier II for free with no investment, and craft wand is already really useful so why not grab it too?
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:09 am

Canonically, by rote of their craft, wizards are the best magic item crafters - because they are the only primary (PC) class that must scribe magical scrolls and understand them in order to advance their careers. This lends them a predisposition to imbuing magic into other things as well, and is why their bonus feats every five levels include item creation selections as well as spell-casting choices - because they're better at it. (It also helps to supplement the fact that they have fewer spell slots than every other primary caster except druids).

I'm not calling any caster class weak, and I'm aware wild mages exist, but unpathed regular and specialist wizards, while having plenty of magical feats, are not exactly standing so tall above the rest as to merit the punch in the proverbial feat-kidney, I don't think. It especially doesn't make sense that they're the only casting class it doesn't count for, since divine scrolls in my experience have a much higher demand/reward to begin with.

This (part of the) change unilaterally hurts every wizard that previously built to enchant items, costing them an extra feat, and literally no one else. Please undo the wizard scroll exclusion.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Enchanting

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:42 am

give sorcs, on creation, the ability to pick a school and receive SF at 1, GSF at 11, and ESF at 21 (or some other way to choose a 'bloodline' that gives uniqueness to the class), and i'll consider having sympathy for the class that gets 4 extra feats, scribe scroll for free, the ability to get every arcane spell in the game, as well as 12-14 more INT mod, meaning they get every skill under the sun and then some.

Until then, wizards can finally enjoy being on the same level as every other caster in the game, for once.

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Seekeepeek » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:51 am

is a shame the work ain't done yet. people can't really rebuild before they know what special command epic spell focus enchantment gives in the future. -.-' especially for those that picked the feats on druids and clerics... they are pretty much stuck to the DEVs finish the job.

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Zavandar
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Zavandar » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:00 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:42 am
give sorcs, on creation, the ability to pick a school and receive SF at 1, GSF at 11, and ESF at 21 (or some other way to choose a 'bloodline' that gives uniqueness to the class), and i'll consider having sympathy for the class that gets 4 extra feats, scribe scroll for free, the ability to get every arcane spell in the game, as well as 12-14 more INT mod, meaning they get every skill under the sun and then some.

Until then, wizards can finally enjoy being on the same level as every other caster in the game, for once.
If that were to happen, then there'd be very little reason to play a wizard. The perks of wizard is bonus feats/skills/greater spell variety. The greater spell variety, while nice, isn't huge--for reasons I'm about to explain.

Sorcerers get more spells a day and their "limited" selection is still sufficient for 90% of situations. Give them a "bloodline" and that's another perk of wizard gone. This leaves skills. Skills are nice. Not disputing that. But sorcerers can also do something like dip paladin/bg to get +14 uni.

The crux of my issue is that there are people that have lost functionality and have to explain why they're not able to do things core to their character anymore. I have to find some dumb reason to explain that, while everyone else around me gets to find a reason to explain why they're suddenly better at something I could do yesterday.
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vaclavc
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Re: Enchanting

Post by vaclavc » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:46 am

This is one of the weirdest changes I have ever seen on Arelith, bar maybe the introduction of infinicasters.
It is a direct buff to builds such as battleclerics, battle bards and pala-sorcs, who could not afford investing into the enchantment foci. Up till now, they had to find an epic enchanter to gear up. From now, they can do everything by themselves.
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Xerah
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Xerah » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 am

vaclavc wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:46 am
This is one of the weirdest changes I have ever seen on Arelith, bar maybe the introduction of infinicasters.
It is a direct buff to builds such as battleclerics, battle bards and pala-sorcs, who could not afford investing into the enchantment foci. Up till now, they had to find an epic enchanter to gear up. From now, they can do everything by themselves.
-V-
None of those classes actually take any way to get to their 3, so you are objectively incorrect.
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vaclavc
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Re: Enchanting

Post by vaclavc » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:06 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 am
None of those classes actually take any way to get to their 3, so you are objectively incorrect.
Is that so? I though that any build with 24+ primary casting class levels AND Craft wand feat could now do what was previously possible only with three enchantment foci. Maybe I do not understand the change correctly then?

-V-
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 am
vaclavc wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:46 am
This is one of the weirdest changes I have ever seen on Arelith, bar maybe the introduction of infinicasters.
It is a direct buff to builds such as battleclerics, battle bards and pala-sorcs, who could not afford investing into the enchantment foci. Up till now, they had to find an epic enchanter to gear up. From now, they can do everything by themselves.
-V-
None of those classes actually take any way to get to their 3, so you are objectively incorrect.
Taking craft wand (or scribe scroll, for that matter) for a battle-cleric, even one with only 13 levels, is actually a lucrative investment, and I would call shenanigans on the statement that none of them take it. Aren't there a number of 24/X cleric builds that will almost certainly all being taking craft wand now?

Objectively, clerics cast in armor and full-plate, a d8 hit die, the ability to take feats with turn undead to add their charisma bonus to AC/damage, and get more spell slots per level than a wizard. They can also heal and raise the dead, throw lethal death magic that ignores death magic protection at a higher DC than all other spells, throw saveless blinds, and fight in melee with an AB on par with a fighter.

I can objectively name a dozen or more reasons why other classes shouldn't be as good at enchanting gear doing comparison cookies, but that's not really the avenue I'm appealing to.

Objectively, it doesn't make sense for every class other than wizards to count scroll scribing. What was meant to be a change to enchanting to de-couple it from SF: Enchantment feats (which were all but useless to some classes and I can support) has found a way to simultaneously include a wizard-exclusive nerf that was never called for - essentially, if you want to play a wizard magic item creator, you are uniquely punished for the choice now, having to give up a bonus feat that is part of a package meant to make up for all the other things you don't get as a d4 squishy mage.


What I'm genuinely interested in is where along the design process did it go from "make enchanting gear more accessible to other classes," to "wizards are too good at this and we need to take something extra from them during the switch?" Why was that decision made? To me, it seems little different than saying fighters have too much of an advantage in melee so now they have to take weapon proficiency martial when they level up to be fair to everyone else.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Orian_666
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 am

vaclavc wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:06 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 am
None of those classes actually take any way to get to their 3, so you are objectively incorrect.
Is that so? I though that any build with 24+ primary casting class levels AND Craft wand feat could now do what was previously possible only with three enchantment foci. Maybe I do not understand the change correctly then?

-V-
Clerics are the only ones that can get it out of the ones you listed. They're considered "Primary Caster Class" and gain Tier 1 Dweomer at CL 12, and Tier 2 at CL 24.
Bards and paladins are "Hybrid Caster Classes" and gain Tier 1 Dweomer at CL 21, and Tier 2 at CL 28 (If they go full class build).

So it takes Clerics 1 feat to get Tier 3, at least one of the possible feats almost all clerics will take anyway.
But it'd take Bards and Paladins 2 extra feats, all of the options a bard or pala would rarely ever take at all.

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Re: Enchanting

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:21 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 am
Xerah wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:59 am
vaclavc wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:46 am
This is one of the weirdest changes I have ever seen on Arelith, bar maybe the introduction of infinicasters.
It is a direct buff to builds such as battleclerics, battle bards and pala-sorcs, who could not afford investing into the enchantment foci. Up till now, they had to find an epic enchanter to gear up. From now, they can do everything by themselves.
-V-
None of those classes actually take any way to get to their 3, so you are objectively incorrect.
Taking craft wand (or scribe scroll, for that matter) for a battle-cleric, even one with only 13 levels, is actually a lucrative investment, and I would call shenanigans on the statement that none of them take it. Aren't there a number of 24/X cleric builds that will almost certainly all being taking craft wand now?

Objectively, clerics cast in armor and full-plate, a d8 hit die, the ability to take feats with turn undead to add their charisma bonus to AC/damage, and get more spell slots per level than a wizard. They can also heal and raise the dead, throw lethal death magic that ignores death magic protection at a higher DC than all other spells, throw saveless blinds, and fight in melee with an AB on par with a fighter.

I can objectively name a dozen or more reasons why other classes shouldn't be as good at enchanting gear doing comparison cookies, but that's not really the avenue I'm appealing to.

Objectively, it doesn't make sense for every class other than wizards to count scroll scribing. What was meant to be a change to enchanting to de-couple it from SF: Enchantment feats (which were all but useless to some classes and I can support) has found a way to simultaneously include a wizard-exclusive nerf that was never called for - essentially, if you want to play a wizard magic item creator, you are uniquely punished for the choice now, having to give up a bonus feat that is part of a package meant to make up for all the other things you don't get as a d4 squishy mage.


What I'm genuinely interested in is where along the design process did it go from "make enchanting gear more accessible to other classes," to "wizards are too good at this and we need to take something extra from them during the switch?" Why was that decision made? To me, it seems little different than saying fighters have too much of an advantage in melee so now they have to take weapon proficiency martial when they level up to be fair to everyone else.
I do agree with this.
I don't mind other classes getting "easier" access to this Dweomer Crafting, but not letting a Wizards free Scribe feat count is a bit strange to me, it doesn't make much sense really. I know it means that pretty much any standard Wizard build will get to Tier 3 for absolutely free but what's wrong with that? They /should/ be the best people for that job!

And it's being opened up to so many people now, multiple classes that never had this ability at all now all of a sudden do, we're talking dozens of currently active characters, it's not like it's a game breaking ability and if all these people just all of a sudden can now do it what's so wrong with the Wizards getting it for "free" by the time they're level 24?

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Re: Enchanting

Post by Sea Shanties » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:31 am

I honestly don't know what to make of this myself. It's good to open up these abilities, I think. In all honesty though, I think a lot of recent changes have been more complicated than they need to be. Runes, missile templates and this come to mind as things that I'd imagine new players or even people used to other NWN servers have no idea what to make of. I think I have a handle on what this update entails but If some new player asked "how do you enchant?" I'd still have no idea where to begin explaining.

I'm sure balance is more a priority to the designers though and I'm also sure a lot of players like geeking out on mastering obscure systems so that's just an opinion more than a complaint.
Last edited by Sea Shanties on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Imperatrix
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Imperatrix » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:32 am

I appreciate the work that goes into these changes, and I think if I were a wizard I'd be pretty happy. This is a straight buff for (most) wizard builds, OP aside.

However I'm a sorcerer who took ESF enchantment for both item creation and spells. It's fun to spam Confusion and Hold but they are hardly top tier spells and I doubt I would have taken the foci without item creation, despite how much I've enjoyed RPing an Enchantment-focused sorcerer.

I've also lost functionality and additionally I've gained no buff to my spells due to all the enhancements being applied to spells that are incredibly difficult to fit into a sorcerer spell list (namely dominate and mass charm.)

In order to retain item creation I either need to replace my bard dip with ranger for a bonus feat to take an item creation feat that has limited functionality with sorcerer spell selections, or simply drop enchantment entirely. The former causes me to lose UMD, and both changes cause me to alter the established roleplay since I would either 'suddenly be a ranger' or 'suddenly forget how to be an enchantress.'

It's not ideal. I think that having ESF: Enchantment should simply apply one 'dweomercraft' level for pre-change characters.

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Re: Enchanting

Post by vaclavc » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:07 am

My guess is that most builds that include 24 levels of Sorc, Wiz, Cleric or Druid invest in Craft wands, which grants them Tier III crafting, previously available only to epic enchanters. The increase in number of characters capable of crafting top tier magical items will be pretty significant. This may impact both the PVE balance and the economy of the server.

-V-
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Alox
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Alox » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:29 am

I think on the whole that the changes are good.

GSF:enchant is great.
ESF:enchant does seem to be lacking a bit now, but we will have to see what epic spell is coming.

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Re: Enchanting

Post by Halibutthead » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:41 am

I say we remove the scribe scroll feat from the list of tier ups for the sake of consistency and be done with it.

"Mr master wizard master, sir, how do i become better at using the enchantment basin?"

"Why, focus on your spellcasting abilities, of course! Additionally, you can learn to replicate spells in wands and potions. Learning how to scribe scrolls will help as well, unless you're a wizard, because that wouldn't be fair."

The Sojourner
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Re: Enchanting

Post by The Sojourner » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:56 am

This change is great, but I have one very solid, red-lettered suggestion to make:
Make ESF Enchantment classify as item-creation feat.
It's a simple addition that renders tribute to all the enchanters that have already been creating stuff and allows them to retain their exact build without losing anything, and making rebuilding entirely optional.
Thanks.

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Re: Enchanting

Post by monkeywithstick » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:30 pm

Consider making 4/5 ESF feats count as a dweomercraft thing.
Characters that have mastered 4 or 5 schools of magic being good at creating magical items makes some intuitive sense and if we're worried about power creep 5 ESF builds aren't superoptimal anyway methinks.
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Richørd
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Richørd » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:40 pm

I don't get the big deal. Changes happen. The enchanting school doesn't fit this, the name is missleading. It should have been transmutation from the start.

The DMs are even offering free relevels for anyone who was seriously afflicted by this.

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Hazard
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Hazard » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:08 pm

Richørd wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:40 pm
I don't get the big deal. Changes happen. The enchanting school doesn't fit this, the name is missleading. It should have been transmutation from the start.

The DMs are even offering free relevels for anyone who was seriously afflicted by this.
And portals should be conjuration! :P

I haven't hopped on my wizard enchanter to play with the new changes, but so far on paper this sounds fine to me. Scribe scroll not counting for wizards seems unfair though and doesn't make any sense, but it's a minor annoyance. Maybe there's bigger balance issues I'm not aware of that explain that decision, but I'm sure it will be reconsidered if there isn't.

I'd really like to take advantage of that assisted rebuild. How long do these offers usually remain? Long enough to see what the cookie is? It could be a very fun cookie.
Last edited by Hazard on Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Opustus
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Opustus » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:39 pm

Awesome changes! Opens up kewl crafter/tinkerer/knick-knackerer RP to more classes. Though the really important question obviously is, do spellswords get summons in the form of dominated monsters now?
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susitsu
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Re: Enchanting

Post by susitsu » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:51 pm

i have heard such strange things in this thread. it's this easy,


1: SF: Conjuration, GSF: Conjuration
2:
3: SF: Abjuration
4:
5: GSF: Abjuration
6: Extend Spell
7:
8:
9: SF: Evocation
10: GSF: Evocation
11:
12: Maximize
13:
14:
15: Empower Spell, Craft Wand
16:
17:
b18: Brew Potion
b19:
b20:

whoa if you're not human, you drop one of TWO craft feats.

Seriously, wizards and sorcerers are different? Not really. They're the same gameplay with adjusted numbers and sorcerers have the powers of longevity and no feats while wizards have the magical ability to be utterly unprepared for PvP. Build wise, oh well, sorcerers can't enchant. It's not the worst thing in the world. Before we had four enchanters online max at any time. Now every wizard can enchant. This legitimately means better things for the server and those in timezones lacking certain player services.

The enchanting changes might not be perfect, but they sure needed to happen. I said a long time ago that the standardization of gear across the board begins with ease of access and usability.

Currently, literally every wizard should be able to enchant at level 26. My current build and roleplay as an enchanter is utterly unaffected. Because I can still enchant, and I think it's great a lot more people are going to be able to. I'm especially glad enchantment got buffed since it's already so good.

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Zavandar
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Re: Enchanting

Post by Zavandar » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:37 pm

That's great that you can make a build that can enchant.

Not every existing build, which were planned around ESF: Enchantment, can without making big sacrifices.
Intelligence is too important

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susitsu
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Re: Enchanting

Post by susitsu » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:58 pm

The issue is you've invested too much in power and are actually losing something for it, right?

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