Enchanting

[Liareth]

I agree that lorewise, wizards should be the best dweomercrafters.
What surprises me here is the clear intention of the DEVs to make enchanting more accessible. This change will result in much better availability of enchanted gear for anyone and for more wands/scrolls/potions being sold in shops.
I am not saying it is good or bad, just not my cup of tea, as Arelith is moving towards high magic environment more and more.
-V-

I don't think we have a low magic environment on Arelith. On the contrary, I think we have a high magic environment, given how normalised epic magic is here and the high level cap - but with low magic loot (and mid-magic weapons)! I think the power level of items is disproportionately low compared to the magic level of the environment. IMO, more enchanters doesn't mean a higher level of magic in this case because the ceiling of power from enchanted items, even when using top-end runes, is already so low.

A bit off topic, but I'd love to see the direction shift from many small impact items towards a few large impact items. For example, imagine if rather than enchanting 10 +2 skill items that are all identical except for the slot, you could craft (or even better, loot!) two +10 skill items, but they could only stack up to a total of +20 from items, like how attribute stacking works. I feel such a system would make crafting and looting items more varied and exciting.

Imagine artifacts but without looting empty air 90% of the time, 8% of the time having the "only usable by: lawful evil halfling paladin" property, 1% of the time pulling out total junk, and the remaining 1% being decent quality. You could enter an epic dungeon and leave with more gold than the cost of your consumables plus at least one item guaranteed to be okay with the potential to blow your socks off.

[strong yeet]

Arelith is insanely high magic, summoning dragons is hilariously commonplace and that's just for the very most brief of starters. Nothing about it is "low magic" except for the fact you can only put +1 strength on your gear, which is whatever.

[Jagel]

The only thing that used to be low magic is items.

[vaclavc]

I agree and I have never, ever, said that Arelith was low magic! It would be probably better to say it changes from high magic to very high magic.
For my taste, the server has always managed to strike the perfect spot for difficulty level and magic vs mundane.
Some of the more recent changes seem to shift the balance, but the DEVs have clearly very good idea of what they want to achieve.
-V-

[susitsu]

The issue is you've invested too much in power and are actually losing something for it, right?

If this were the case I'd agree with you. However, let us not forget, that such woe and lack of power was there unto enchantment (the investment), that this change was brought up and discussed, and implemented (with some extracurricular additions) to give enchantment a buff - so no, it wasn't an investment in power. In fact, some people that suggested that enchantment as a school wasn't weak were sort of blatantly told they were wrong in that thread, if my memory serves.

So the investment was into item creation - not optimization.

Yeah, here's the thing, they're wrong. Enchantment has never been bad, and the funniest part about how honestly enraged some people are is that full access to enchanting-SORRY, Dweomercrafting begins at level 24 for everyone. The cost effectiveness and runic chance gain are bypassed by not giving a snugglybear about gold and godsaves.

Literally everyone is a Dweomercrafter at level 24.

So, how do you end up failing to even reach 24 caster levels without a craft feat? Either you've got four god damn spell foci like the people who can't build wizards, or you're a pale master and you should go get that free rebuild since being an enchanter is more important than the crit immunity you wanted so bad.

...or maybe you could take a craft feat somewhere in your build. Again, free rebuilds.


As far as "optimization" is concerned, this is actually a step towards it. It cements the concept for people that you have to make room for some more basic things in your build and can't have every cookie. Wizards barely function right at four spell foci, accessing very little of their power at a time and tanking it in epic feats. Thankfully, people will finally be inclined not to do that purely so they can Dweomercraft.

Edit: Not level 24, you can tier 2 at 12 and a craft feat. Cool, I'm a master Dweomercrafter on my char pre-epics.

[Zavandar]

The issue is you've invested too much in power and are actually losing something for it, right?

If this were the case I'd agree with you. However, let us not forget, that such woe and lack of power was there unto enchantment (the investment), that this change was brought up and discussed, and implemented (with some extracurricular additions) to give enchantment a buff - so no, it wasn't an investment in power. In fact, some people that suggested that enchantment as a school wasn't weak were sort of blatantly told they were wrong in that thread, if my memory serves.

So the investment was into item creation - not optimization.

Yeah, here's the thing, they're wrong. Enchantment has never been bad, and the funniest part about how honestly enraged some people are is that full access to enchanting-SORRY, Dweomercrafting begins at level 24 for everyone. The cost effectiveness and runic chance gain are bypassed by not giving a snugglybear about gold and godsaves.

Literally everyone is a Dweomercrafter at level 24.

So, how do you end up failing to even reach 24 caster levels without a craft feat? Either you've got four god damn spell foci like the people who can't build wizards, or you're a pale master and you should go get that free rebuild since being an enchanter is more important than the crit immunity you wanted so bad.

...or maybe you could take a craft feat somewhere in your build. Again, free rebuilds.


As far as "optimization" is concerned, this is actually a step towards it. It cements the concept for people that you have to make room for some more basic things in your build and can't have every cookie. Wizards barely function right at four spell foci, accessing very little of their power at a time and tanking it in epic feats. Thankfully, people will finally be inclined not to do that purely so they can Dweomercraft.

Edit: Not level 24, you can tier 2 at 12 and a craft feat. Cool, I'm a master Dweomercrafter on my char pre-epics.

If enchantment was a good school, I don't think it would have been buffed.

You shouldn't present your opinions as fact, and grabbing 4 foci doesn't mean you can't build a wizard.

Please watch your tone. You're derailing the thread.

[DM Sollers]

Mod hat on, everyone chill. Return to offering feedback, not a barbed build debate. If the thread has served its purpose and starts derailing again, it'll be locked.

[yellowcateyes]

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

The announcement post has been updated with the change. The rule modification will be live after the next reset.

[Gillesbreton]

Firstly, I would like to thank the developers and contributors for all the hard work they put into Arelith.

Background to this: My character Seliena Var'kor is one of the few enchanters renowned for her item enchantment, creating wondrous and interesting items on a regular basis was an art form for her, the fact that she was one of the few item enchanters about was something special about her. Many of you will know how much time has been invested into this, having given several lectures about it, learnt most enchanting rune languages and enchanted hundreds of pieces of gear - some you would consider legendary items, arguably she should be one of the best in her craft which is why she has an order list as long as my arm.

Currently (until she can get a rebuild) there are wizards/clerics/druids who haven't enchanted more than a handful of items in their lives are now better than Seliena (as she is now only Tier 2), which is ridiculous.

On taking the enchantment school I made an active choice, not to go with the PvP meta/optimal build for wizards, in exchange for that I was rewarded with hours upon hours of RP in regards to item creation (enchantment), I am now unable to continue this without a serious re-build.

Lore: In many respects shifting item creation away from Enchanting is correct, in 3.0/3.5 all wizards can create magical items in D&D within Faerun if they had the Craft Magic Arms And Armor Feat and/or Craft Wondrous items feats, I had always seen the Enchantment focuses as taking these feats.

I understand from a lore point of view that this is correct, however, in the crafting system there are many items with magical properties which do not require the craft magic arms and armor or craft wondrous items feats. Will we be seeing restrictions put on all non-mundane item crafts like they did with harps (Bard only creation)? This would follow the same logic of why these changes were made. (I would also encourage that 'Craft Wand/scribe scroll/brew potion' to be made available to all classes should this happen as a placeholder for 'craft magic arms and armor' feat.)

Dominate person: Dominate person has long been used in RP to 'control' other players, compel them to do things, move around. It is now a STUN. This is a HUGE move away from the lore, this seems a bit like one step forward, one step back.

Implementation: This patch has removed the Epic Spell Focus feat from the Enchantment school and offered characters who have heavily invested in the Spell School to re-level. This means that anyone who chooses to change from the Enchantment School is not making a decision without all the facts. Surely this patch does not need to be implemented until Epic Spell Focus Enchantment ability unique has been completed.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I'm actually expecting the enchant feat ability to be amazing and everyone who focused away from enchantment with the free rebuild will be livid that they are missing out.

[Nitro]

Look at the post above yours, your wizard will have T3 now if they're epic.

Dominate person: Dominate person has long been used in RP to 'control' other players, compel them to do things, move around. It is now a STUN. This is a HUGE move away from the lore, this seems a bit like one step forward, one step back.

Dominate person has never done that on Arelith given that it operates on WYSIWYG. If the affected wanted to RP being controlled, that was on them but a lot of the time they'd get pressured into it despite the fact that they didn't have to RP anything else than a daze.

[Gillesbreton]

Look at the post above yours, your wizard will have T3 now if they're epic.

Wrong, you can have 30 caster levels and Craft Wand and not have it.

[DM Sollers]

Dominate person has never done that on Arelith given that it operates on WYSIWYG. If the affected wanted to RP being controlled, that was on them but a lot of the time they'd get pressured into it despite the fact that they didn't have to RP anything else than a daze.

This is correct. If we went with the lore, there'd be telepathy involved (which is against the rules) as well as a saving throw every time they're made to perform against their nature, meaning an enemy asking the person protecting their friends to give out their friends' names would trigger a saving throw against the spell.

That said, players may react to "Dominate" spells as they like so long as it's within the rules.

With the change to the "Scribe Scroll/Wizard" portion of the update now in effect, let's focus any other feedback for this "Enchanting" thread on other parts of the update. If feedback's over, we can let it die.

Personally, no complaints here. Cheers.

[Nitro]

Wrong, you can have 30 caster levels and Craft Wand and not have it.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

The announcement post has been updated with the change. The rule modification will be live after the next reset.

Every 12 Levels in a Primary Caster Class. This includes Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, and Wizards (not Spellswords). Pale Master and Harper levels are added to the primary caster class level count, unless the character has more hybrid caster class levels.

Each invested Crafting Feat. This includes Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, and Craft Wand. Scribe Scroll does not count as an invested Crafting Feat if received automatically from Wizard levels.

So if you have 24 wizard levels, you should have T3 by default, and any full caster class with 24 levels and any crafting feat should have it.

[Gillesbreton]

Wrong, you can have 30 caster levels and Craft Wand and not have it.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

The announcement post has been updated with the change. The rule modification will be live after the next reset.

Every 12 Levels in a Primary Caster Class. This includes Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, and Wizards (not Spellswords). Pale Master and Harper levels are added to the primary caster class level count, unless the character has more hybrid caster class levels.

Each invested Crafting Feat. This includes Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, and Craft Wand. Scribe Scroll does not count as an invested Crafting Feat if received automatically from Wizard levels.

So if you have 24 wizard levels, you should have T3 by default, and any full caster class with 24 levels and any crafting feat should have it.

Would explain here but it would be some IC stuff. Suffice to say, the character has 30 caster levels and craft wand and is tier 2.

[Nitro]

Send a bug report then if it's not working as intended?

[Gillesbreton]

Send a bug report then if it's not working as intended?

Have asked for character rebuild already, and the build was working as intended up until they changed the deal.

[RedGiant]

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

Well i'll be....Rick got a god save.

Enjoy your keen, masterly damask minister!

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

The announcement post has been updated with the change. The rule modification will be live after the next reset.

Thank you, a lot!

Not just for the change itself, but for considering the feedback and acting on it by putting more work into it for us ungrateful bastards who wanted it. It's very much appreciated.

[Hazard]

After some internal discussion, the devs have decided to allow Scribe Scroll to count for all characters - regardless of whether that feat was obtained automatically through Wizard levels or picked normally as a general feat.

The announcement post has been updated with the change. The rule modification will be live after the next reset.

Thank you, a lot!

Not just for the change itself, but for considering the feedback and acting on it by putting more work into it for us ungrateful bastards who wanted it. It's very much appreciated.

Yeah, wow. That's very cool of the team. Offering relevels and considering feedback, and reacting to it so quickly and fairly.

I'm super impressed by how well this change is being handled by the team, and they totally deserve all the cookies and love. Wow.

[TimeAdept]

A little disappointing to see wizards once again be the best choice for any and all foci benefits, on top of having 4 extra feats and as much and sometimes more skill points than equivalent rogue builds, but here we are.

Can't imagine what it's like to be a sorceror.

[Ebonstar]

find it amazing that the same cry for appeal and legacy status for old kensai didnt get the same consideration who built around certain feats and skill and were told to suck it up

[Sockss]

Can't imagine what it's like to be a sorceror.

You just have to imagine being better mechanically and also really charismatic.

[Halibutthead]

A little disappointing to see wizards once again be the best choice for any and all foci benefits, on top of having 4 extra feats...

isn't... isn't part B the reason for part A?

[Gillesbreton]

Level requirements: Can someone please explain to me how hybrid caster classes get tier 3 enchantment after 21 levels and a dedicated caster class gets tier 3 after 24 levels, surely the more focused caster would learn the craft at a far earlier level.


Charm/Mass Charm; there is a spell that causes confusion already, its called confusion, seems like needless overlapping spells which do the exact same thing.