Enchanting

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

magistrasa
Posts: 667
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:58 pm

Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:11 pm
Level requirements: Can someone please explain to me how hybrid caster classes get tier 3 enchantment after 21 levels and a dedicated caster class gets tier 3 after 24 levels, surely the more focused caster would learn the craft at a far earlier level.
Hybrid caster classes automatically meet the requisite for a single tier of dweomercraft after having taken 21 levels of that class, whereas full casters have qualified for two. So the hybrid caster could, in theory, master dweomercraft before the wizard if they've invested into the two other feats. But doesn't that feat investment sort of imply dedicated practice in the first place? That's how I'm justifying it, at least. I haven't put much thought into all the different builds out there and ways to cheese the system, but if it were me, I'd make it so full casters got a tier every 10 levels, and hybrids got it at 20. I'm sure there's a reason for the way it is now though - and I'm sure once this headache goes away I'll be able to think of it. x_x

Charm/Mass Charm; there is a spell that causes confusion already, its called confusion, seems like needless overlapping spells which do the exact same thing.
Yeah but.... Higher spell slot = higher spell DC. And, isn't confusion single-target anyways? This feels like a welcome boost to an otherwise kinda useless line of spells, I have no complaints at all.

× Career Sharran × MILF Supreme × Artist (Allegedly) ×
Will Trade Art For Groceries Again Eventually


User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by Hazard » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:25 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:58 pm
Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:11 pm
Level requirements: Can someone please explain to me how hybrid caster classes get tier 3 enchantment after 21 levels and a dedicated caster class gets tier 3 after 24 levels, surely the more focused caster would learn the craft at a far earlier level.
Hybrid caster classes automatically meet the requisite for a single tier of dweomercraft after having taken 21 levels of that class, whereas full casters have qualified for two. So the hybrid caster could, in theory, master dweomercraft before the wizard if they've invested into the two other feats. But doesn't that feat investment sort of imply dedicated practice in the first place? That's how I'm justifying it, at least. I haven't put much thought into all the different builds out there and ways to cheese the system, but if it were me, I'd make it so full casters got a tier every 10 levels, and hybrids got it at 20. I'm sure there's a reason for the way it is now though - and I'm sure once this headache goes away I'll be able to think of it. x_x

Charm/Mass Charm; there is a spell that causes confusion already, its called confusion, seems like needless overlapping spells which do the exact same thing.
Yeah but.... Higher spell slot = higher spell DC. And, isn't confusion single-target anyways? This feels like a welcome boost to an otherwise kinda useless line of spells, I have no complaints at all.
Nah, confusion is AoE. You can target a single-target or the ground, but either way it does a little bursty woosh thing and gets a bunch of targets that are in radius.
Last edited by Hazard on Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:30 pm

Halibutthead wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:28 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:54 am
A little disappointing to see wizards once again be the best choice for any and all foci benefits, on top of having 4 extra feats...
isn't... isn't part B the reason for part A?
Partly, but also that the wizard/sorc spell list lends itself better to taking nearly any spell foci, as opposed to Druid and Cleric which can only make a few of them work. You'd never make an Illusion, Enchantment, Divination, or Abjuration divine caster, for example, they don't have the spells to support it.

yellowcateyes
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 1445
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:02 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm

It's an open secret that Arelith is currently working towards having Haks. When that happens, there will be an opportunity to expand the vanilla game's limited spellbook for each casting class, and perhaps encourage Clerics and Druids to invest in spell foci that are not the usual suspects.

Regarding Sorcerers, they are - as Sockss points out - still mechanically powerful, even if their popularity has waned due to so many RP perks being associated with school focus feats. If you have any suggestions for roleplay perks that sorcerers might enjoy (and that wizards wouldn't immediately be better at), feel free to let us know when the suggestion box opens up again.

On the last subject, I'd advise players currently holding onto their rebuild decision for word on the ESF Enchantment perk to use the other ESF bonuses as a baseline of what to expect. Would you create an Abjurationist Cleric just for -ward, or an Illusionist Druid just for send image and project clone? The answer to that question should inform your decision.

Halibutthead
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:56 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Halibutthead » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:03 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm
... Would you create an Abjurationist Cleric just for -ward...
i have seen that done to great effect back in the day. as such, i don't think that's a very good indicator of whether or not we'll think it's good. -send_image is pretty lackluster, for instance, but -yoink is fantastically powerful. they're not even remotely balanced (which isn't bad, it just is).

we really do just have to wait and see. i'm looking forward to it.

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by Hazard » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:11 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm
On the last subject, I'd advise players currently holding onto their rebuild decision for word on the ESF Enchantment perk to use the other ESF bonuses as a baseline of what to expect. Would you create an Abjurationist Cleric just for -ward, or an Illusionist Druid just for send image and project clone? The answer to that question should inform your decision.
The curiosity is KILLING MEEEEE.

Sea Shanties
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm

Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:11 pm
Charm/Mass Charm; there is a spell that causes confusion already, its called confusion, seems like needless overlapping spells which do the exact same thing.
Charm is single target which may have situational use. Mass Charm is a level 8 spell meaning 4 higher DC. Also this gives more flexibility in spellbook slots. I’m happy with it, certainly better than them doing nothing of use like before.

Gillesbreton
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Gillesbreton » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm
Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:11 pm
Charm/Mass Charm; there is a spell that causes confusion already, its called confusion, seems like needless overlapping spells which do the exact same thing.
Charm is single target which may have situational use. Mass Charm is a level 8 spell meaning 4 higher DC. Also this gives more flexibility in spellbook slots. I’m happy with it, certainly better than them doing nothing of use like before.
I don't know how well versed you are with the history of 3.0/3.5 but the big criticism of it was rule and spell bloat, too many things that did the same thing, which ended up leaving the D&D Community with 4th Edition.

Perhaps change the Confusion spell to do something else? Just not two spells doing the exact same thing.
Duvain Yantul
Lani Thrul
Seliena Var’kor
Indori Nevarr
Sago Teas

User: ShaleStone - pre-EE.
Played on Arelith since split with Amia.

Alox
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Alox » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:27 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm
On the last subject, I'd advise players currently holding onto their rebuild decision for word on the ESF Enchantment perk to use the other ESF bonuses as a baseline of what to expect. Would you create an Abjurationist Cleric just for -ward, or an Illusionist Druid just for send image and project clone? The answer to that question should inform your decision.
I am also dying to get any hints on this! :P

Sea Shanties
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Sea Shanties » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:44 pm

Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 pm

I don't know how well versed you are with the history of 3.0/3.5 but the big criticism of it was rule and spell bloat, too many things that did the same thing, which ended up leaving the D&D Community with 4th Edition.

Perhaps change the Confusion spell to do something else? Just not two spells doing the exact same thing.
If you want this to be your pet crusade, have fun. Like I say it's a nice fix for a useless spell in my opinion and it's better than nothing. Maybe it's just a placeholder for something else to come.

Gillesbreton
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Gillesbreton » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:44 pm
Gillesbreton wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 pm

I don't know how well versed you are with the history of 3.0/3.5 but the big criticism of it was rule and spell bloat, too many things that did the same thing, which ended up leaving the D&D Community with 4th Edition.

Perhaps change the Confusion spell to do something else? Just not two spells doing the exact same thing.
If you want this to be your pet crusade, have fun. Like I say it's a nice fix for a useless spell in my opinion and it's better than nothing. Maybe it's just a placeholder for something else to come.
Crusade? This is the Feedback thread for the patch, i was providing feedback and posted a response to your comment. Chill out.
Duvain Yantul
Lani Thrul
Seliena Var’kor
Indori Nevarr
Sago Teas

User: ShaleStone - pre-EE.
Played on Arelith since split with Amia.

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:29 pm

A Confusion with +4 DC is totally worth it, coming from a spell that did literally nothing before.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:03 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:29 pm
A Confusion with +4 DC is totally worth it, coming from a spell that did literally nothing before.
I agree with this mechanically, however, the one reason I'm going to miss the dazes off of the charm and dominate line vs. PC's is that while you had some people who would just sort of stagger off, I also got a number of people that were willing to roll with the fact that they were charmed/dominated in RP; the stun effect makes it impossible, to say, "follow me," or to use the "leave the city/go back where you came from," avenue, although it does still allow an interrogation aspect with cooperative people.

The confusion aspect however, pretty much makes it impossible to try to convince people to leave, since they're going to attack each other.

It's cool- I can work with it. I certainly have no complaints in the PvE aspect of the game. Just some concerns that it will remove the viability of the spells being de-escalators in PvP situations, as opposed to kill shots.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:27 am

yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm
On the last subject, I'd advise players currently holding onto their rebuild decision for word on the ESF Enchantment perk to use the other ESF bonuses as a baseline of what to expect. Would you create an Abjurationist Cleric just for -ward, or an Illusionist Druid just for send image and project clone? The answer to that question should inform your decision.
I do play a Wizard who is an Enchanter, but I can't get myself to rework her. The idea of messing with people's minds is too good for her to pass on. If anything, she will enjoy the small buffs to some of the Enchantment spells =)
yellowcateyes wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:44 pm
If you have any suggestions for roleplay perks that sorcerers might enjoy (and that wizards wouldn't immediately be better at), feel free to let us know when the suggestion box opens up again.
Do we know when the Suggestion box might open up again?


yellowcateyes
Project Lead
Project Lead
Posts: 1445
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:02 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:18 pm

There's no exact timetable on when the Suggestion Box is re-opening, but I suspect it will happen when some leeway is made on approved suggestions and the admins feel comfortable accepting new suggestions again.

Sea Shanties
Posts: 426
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:45 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:57 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:30 pm
Partly, but also that the wizard/sorc spell list lends itself better to taking nearly any spell foci, as opposed to Druid and Cleric which can only make a few of them work. You'd never make an Illusion, Enchantment, Divination, or Abjuration divine caster, for example, they don't have the spells to support it.
Well- yes and no. Divination for the -scry is worth it to some even though there are no spells of use (there barely are on wizard either, for that matter.) A divine diviner actually has an advantage IMO since piety is easier to regain than spell components and scry is really wasteful. I think epic abjuration cleric can work too, though it's not an A-list choice.

Anyway I second that every ESF bonus isn't the same-- I've built characters around scry and teleport, I could care less about ward and project image and they really aren't equal at least to my tastes. Hopefully people will have time to see what comes before DMs end the rebuilds.

Jeloran
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Jeloran » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm

So now is it true that all Epic Spellswords and Wizards will get tier 3 for free?

I have played one of the servers main epic enchanters in the past. I really like the changes with how enchanting now works from a spell perspective. This will make them far more useful in combat. I am not sure if I like the idea of all wizards being the best enchanters on the server though. It makes it a bit less special. Kinda like if everyone is special then no one is sort of thing.

I am not sure how I would do that but it seems like we will now have far too many epic crafters making enchanted items way too common. I really enjoyed having the epic enchanting business I had in the past. Now it seems that will be less of a thing since everyone does it.

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:30 am

Jeloran wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm
So now is it true that all Epic Spellswords and Wizards will get tier 3 for free?

I have played one of the servers main epic enchanters in the past. I really like the changes with how enchanting now works from a spell perspective. This will make them far more useful in combat. I am not sure if I like the idea of all wizards being the best enchanters on the server though. It makes it a bit less special. Kinda like if everyone is special then no one is sort of thing.

I am not sure how I would do that but it seems like we will now have far too many epic crafters making enchanted items way too common. I really enjoyed having the epic enchanting business I had in the past. Now it seems that will be less of a thing since everyone does it.
Spellswords only get T3 dweomercraft for free if they take 28 spellsword levels, which isn't actually free, since they have to give up a bard dip and all the skills that brings.

Much of the point of the update was to make creating top-tier gear less "special" and less dependent on who you know. While I don't necessarily agree with giving all wizards T3 dweomercraft for nothing but level investment, I understand why it was done. Having scribe scroll count for all classes except wizard was kinda awkward.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

User avatar
Hazard
Posts: 1866
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by Hazard » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:56 pm

Sea Shanties wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:57 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:30 pm
Partly, but also that the wizard/sorc spell list lends itself better to taking nearly any spell foci, as opposed to Druid and Cleric which can only make a few of them work. You'd never make an Illusion, Enchantment, Divination, or Abjuration divine caster, for example, they don't have the spells to support it.
Well- yes and no. Divination for the -scry is worth it to some even though there are no spells of use (there barely are on wizard either, for that matter.) A divine diviner actually has an advantage IMO since piety is easier to regain than spell components and scry is really wasteful. I think epic abjuration cleric can work too, though it's not an A-list choice.

Anyway I second that every ESF bonus isn't the same-- I've built characters around scry and teleport, I could care less about ward and project image and they really aren't equal at least to my tastes. Hopefully people will have time to see what comes before DMs end the rebuilds.
Yes please. I hope there is at least a heads up before the rebuilds will stop being offered so if we aren't informed by then we can make the decision to blindly stay with the current school or pick a more functional one for that character concept.

Jeloran
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Enchanting

Post by Jeloran » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:14 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:08 pm
Thinking about it more, I wholeheartedly agree that feats should apply the same across the board - either scribe scroll works, or it doesn't. Similarly, I think spellswords should count as full casters, for the above-mentioned reason that they're a class whose whole mechanics are dedicated to putting magical properties onto items. I'd imagine there should be some crossover that applies to proficiency in dweomercrafting. I see why that's not the case from a balanced design perspective, but I believe the amount to it would offset that balance is minor at worst, and I think it's a better choice to go with the logical connections here.
Gotcha. This is what had me thinking Spellswords might also be counted as full. This was just his opinion though not an official update.

a1b2
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:50 am

Re: Enchanting

Post by a1b2 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:38 pm

Any chance one Tier level can be gained if someone picks the Gift of Craftsmanship at character creation?

Post Reply