(disguise) after character names

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TroubledWaters
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(disguise) after character names

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:29 pm

Moved from the technical feedback thread on -disguise, we have here a discussion on the use of (disguise) after character names when players are disguised.

Adding (disguised) after the name IC does alter how people treat you IC, regardless of how good and honest we think people are on Arelith. People will always treat you as suspect and not have the same interactions they would have with you if they though OOC that you were the "real deal".

Say my IC objective is to pretend to be some famous enchanter from Brog and steal stuff from the dwarves, would anyone trust "Famous Enchanter (disguised)" and give them their items? Same for IC info sharing, trading, anything that would let disguise be used for anything besides maybe evading capture.

Would anyone please clarify, what is the purpose of adding (disguised) after the player name?

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Irielynn Duskwalker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:32 pm

I will just repost myself if OP doesn't mind.

Irielynn Duskwalker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:07 pm
I belive that having (disguised) tag is completely breaking the idea of disguise. Let me explain myself. Lets imagine that Boris is enchanter and Natasha is his customer. Natasha walks towards Boris' home and sees (disguised) Boris. Player behind Natasha PC doesn't want to be punished for metagaming but doesn't want to lose his money falling for a scam performed by sneaky-peaky Ivan (who is disguised as Boris).

What would Natasha do? Natasha would act like she didn't intend to make any deals with Boris, she was just walking around. A potential RP situation was ruined by metagaming which can't be proved. Having (disguise) tag opens a great amount of ways to metagame people without getting punished, without making it obvious. You don't leave your car door open even if you are parking it at good neighbourhood, right?


There were few discussions about it before, but no one came with suggestion. The main reason why it should be this way was that: "Players would pretend to be others and break rules, and make it difficult for DMs to investigate the issue". So, I belive, I came with solution.

I belive it would be technically easy to assign ID to each player on the server upon logging. Lets say we'll have 1000 vacant numbers (integers) which would be automaticly assigned to a players upon logging. So, today when Pyotr login he gets number 1. When Daria loggins she gets number 2. Upon each restart numbers would be assigned again, so people would have different numbers and you wouldn't be able to memorize their ID to metagame.

How is it useful? You want to report a player named Boris and you aren't sure if he is disguised or not. You type a command that would review his ID. So you report person typing down his ID, name and date. Server has history about proccess of giving players ID numbers. So, in logs you will see that at 01.01.2020 under ID 2 Pyotr was playing.

What if didn't check another player for ID and wants to report? There would be logs, and knowing date of rule breaking and a nickname of a player, there would be possibility to look up who was hiding behind that name.

I would post that to Suggestions thread, but it seems to be closed for now. I may understand something wrong, feel free to correct me.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Memelord » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:41 pm

The stated reason for the existence of the (disguise) tag is to prevent Player A from getting in trouble, OOC, because of the actions of Player B. Because people make mistakes and jump to conclusions. If you see "Player A (Disguised)" going around doing really dodgy stuff (potentially, stuff that might get reported) you at least have that heads-up that Player A isn't actually the one you need to be reporting. It's a necessary safeguard.

As for people treating "Player A (Disguised)" differently because of the (Disguise) tag - No. If you see people doing that, report them to the DMs and let the DMs slap them. And then - focus your efforts IG on players who are capable of separating OOC knowledge from IC knowledge, because there's a lot more of them than there are of players who refuse to do so - the ones that can't do it are generally not worth your time when you're trying to do something cool and narrative driving.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Irielynn Duskwalker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:52 pm

As I mentioned in previous post, i belive it is possible to develop technical means to identify a player behind PC so he can be reported, without giving toon's/account real name, without disgusting tag floating around.

In my opinion it makes just as much sense as a floating (stealthing) tag above the head of stealthing character (even if model is not visible), you may belive that people won't metagame, but they would most likely start to ward themselves up for whatever reason.

As for reporting people who metagame (disguised) tag. There are ways to make up some IC situations that would get your toon out of trouble without screaming about disguising person. If you have some secret meeting, and see disguised tag, you could just switch to less important topics or tell jokes or do whatever and you won't give up any useful information. There is no way to prove that person metagamed tag and had any intention to give out important stuff before seeing disguise tag. Its just a huge backdoor for metagamers to ruin the game without being punished.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by magistrasa » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:56 pm

Mechanics exist to bypass disguises. The only way to break a disguise is by passing a spot check. You are notified in the combat log when something breaks your disguise. If someone knows you're disguised without passing the spot check, they're breaking the rules. Report them. It's as simple as that.

I used to think the (Disguised) tag was too easy to metagame, but as I played more in Arelith and got more experienced, I have much less of an issue with it. People on this server can generally be trusted to play well and play by the rules and do the right thing, especially when it seems like it'll make for an interesting story.

Maybe an argument can be made that a skill other than spot should be used to break disguises, since I feel like spot is used to counter both stealth AND disguises. Also Truesight's +20 to spot definitely gives the metagamers an edge if they really wanna break a disguise the "legit" way, albeit with questionable in-game motivations.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by TroubledWaters » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 pm

Right. If I walk up to a group as (disguised) and see everyone pop True Sight, is this a thing I can report and reasonably expect something will be done about it?

Even if it's reported, what happens to the IC consequences? Does my character getting found out and killed get retconned?

I think the answer to both questions is no, which indicates to me that (disguised) is problematic. I may have just joined in EE, but I don't share the same trust of other players that others in this thread have. There's already tells to bring your friends over for PvP, voice chat to coordinate, meta-ing scry with the playerlist and then using TS, all that stuff. I think we're going to have a lot of the same problems with (disguise) that make the skill investment feel wasted, and I think that's a shame. I guess we'll find out!

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:43 pm

I'm going to go ahead and quote myself from the last thread we had on this subject a month ago.
Nitro wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:29 pm
Yeah I wouldn't want to see the disguise tag removed. It'd be way to easy to drag a players reputation into the mud OOC'ly if that were the case. Just imagine if someone takes your characters name and starts doing hairtrigger pvp, stalking or any other number of nasty things with your name on it. Sure they'll probably get caught but by then the damage is already done, people will form an OOC bias against you for the awful things someone else did, and a number of OOC cliques will likely have spread the rumors whether through ignorance, malevolence or just wanting to warn others away from the creepy guy.
Also arguably, having someone use truesight before examining you would be perfectly in character if it's the first time meeting, since its boost to ones perception is quite in character and makes sense for someone scrutinizing someone for discrepancies. If they fail their initial examination and do it afterwards because they know they failed their spot check, then yeah. That's pretty cheesy.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nobs » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:19 pm

When you report some one for meta gaming its to late already.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:38 am

Isn't there already a mechanic in place where if you invest deeply enough into the disguise mechanic the tags go away? Can't this also hide a slave collar?

Looking for confirmation, since I can't see my own tags when I disguise - nor the slave collar in my description.

If this is a thing, wouldn't the IC presumption to this be that your disguise gives away that something is not quite as it should be up to that point?

Edit: I see there's an update I haven't logged in since. I'll experiment, but would still like to know if the above is a thing and if it carried over to the new system or not.
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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Sea Shanties » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:45 am

One point of conflict I had on quite a few occasions pre-EE is some people seem to think if you're in disguise that fact is visible in game whether they pass the check to find your identity or not.

I'd always assumed if you passed the check then they had no idea you were disguised but not everyone feels this way. By that I mean they'll say "no disguises allowed in here" or ask why you are in disguise whether they passed the check or not.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nitro » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:04 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:38 am
Isn't there already a mechanic in place where if you invest deeply enough into the disguise mechanic the tags go away? Can't this also hide a slave collar?
That isn't, and never has been a thing. The slave collar bit is correct though.
Sea Shanties wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:45 am
One point of conflict I had on quite a few occasions pre-EE is some people seem to think if you're in disguise that fact is visible in game whether they pass the check to find your identity or not.

I'd always assumed if you passed the check then they had no idea you were disguised but not everyone feels this way. By that I mean they'll say "no disguises allowed in here" or ask why you are in disguise whether they passed the check or not.
That is absolutely against the rules as it's metagaming, clear and cut. Kindly report all of that happening to the DM's so they can smack down on the perpetrators.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Zed » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm

Nobs wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:19 pm
When you report some one for meta gaming its to late already.
Truer words have never been spoken.


I would say that personally I have actually stopped reported blatant metagaming purely because at the moment the DMs could pull somone aside and some excuse (Read: Any excuse) would be able to be used to have the metagaming "Make sense" ICly.

Somthing as simple as meeting with a friend in the nomad is metagaming in its truest form, but i am certain many on the server do it. Its not pervasive, but it happens.

But therein lies the heart of the problem with having (Disguised) in the name.

I could never pretend to be the character "Rivis" Because if I did, even if I looked exactly like him, I would be "Rivis (Disguised)" His evil twin brother. And it can range from an unconcious level to a completely overt level of "Thats obviously not Rivis" even if I had 150 Bluff/Perform. The second one person does it then it is ruined.

As an unrelated type of metagaming that could happen that exemplifies the point.

A group of people have decided to attack Bendir, for example. One person finds out its happening, then his character then decides out of the blue to start Scrying one of the members involved in the attack. Why did they decide to do this- is this metagaming? Yes. But when asked, that player could just say "Well I was going to scry a bunch of people today, I just happened to do it at the right moment" - How then do you enforce that metagaming? You cannot.

To bring it back to the disguise, well, If my character decided he wanted to ruin a characters rep, say... by stealing gold in bendir disguised as "Rivis (Disguised)" Players would treat me differently, even on a subconcious level, and when confronted they could just say "Well you were acting differently than Rivis would, so my character suspected you" - Is this then metagaming, or is it not, and if it is not, at what point does it fall into meta gaming territory. and how do the DMs identify it when a flimsy excuse is all you need to break the metagaming rule?


The TL;DR of the situation is this: Whether on a conscious level or not, having a OOC tag show up in game causes players to act differently to a character even if it is against the rules.

I am however in favor of keeping it, and having the (Disguised) tag show up if someone "Breaks the disguise" As I think that is more immersive. Personally I think that if you break a disguise you should see that they are disguised, but may not necessarily know who is the one who is disguised.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Halibutthead » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:26 pm

as a person who has been on the receiving end of people metagaming the "disguised" tag repeatedly, i can say with 100% confidence that the tag is fine.

usually it's newer players or poor sports. sure, neither one will listen to you, but (get this) other people will correct them. even people who would love nothing more than to break your disguise so they have an excuse to wtfbbqpwn you. for the most part, the playerbase is pretty good.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Zed » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:37 pm

So... As somone on the recieving end of being metagames, instead of fixing the issue with the tag that would stop this type of thing from happening flat out. You would rather those players continue to do it until somone finally "corrects them"?

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Halibutthead » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:57 pm

yep. because it's not that bad.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nobs » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:16 pm

It is bad...it totaly ruins rp in that moment.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Durvayas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:07 am

Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
Something as simple as meeting with a friend in the nomad is metagaming in its truest form, but i am certain many on the server do it. Its not pervasive, but it happens.
I'm going to point out that this has LONG been considered 100% okay by the DM team for years. Metagaming your friend's location to meet up and RP is considered benign metagaming, and is fine. Metagaming your friend's location because they're in trouble and then showing up to PvP, conversely, is not okay.


Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
I could never pretend to be the character "Rivis" Because if I did, even if I looked exactly like him, I would be "Rivis (Disguised)" His evil twin brother. And it can range from an unconcious level to a completely overt level of "Thats obviously not Rivis" even if I had 150 Bluff/Perform. The second one person does it then it is ruined.

... If my character decided he wanted to ruin a characters rep, say... by stealing gold in bendir disguised as "Rivis (Disguised)" Players would treat me differently, even on a subconcious level, and when confronted they could just say "Well you were acting differently than Rivis would, so my character suspected you" - Is this then metagaming, or is it not, and if it is not, at what point does it fall into meta gaming territory. and how do the DMs identify it when a flimsy excuse is all you need to break the metagaming rule?
This has a whole other host of problems. Namely that you are conflating rollplay (IE: "lol I invested in bluff, so your character can't possibly know that I'm not Revis because you didn't build for spot, regardless of if your PC is Revis' actual family")
... with roleplay.

I have a twin brother IRL. I've lived with him all my life, and we've only ever been apart for a span of six months. If I was approached by someone who claims to be him, even if they looked absolutely identical, I'd be able to tell whether or not that individual was my brother the second they open their mouth to speak; He has this thing he does with his eyes when he's about to say something.

Quite simply, if you don't have Revis' description(not just his name, his entire description), mannerisms, voice, etc, and you are not actively roleplaying your disguise? You had better be a good ten meters or so away from people who actually know Revis, because its a stretch in logic to expect to trick people who know the real deal. WYSIWYG. If you, as a roleplayer, are not up to the task of really disguising and pretending to be someone convincingly, you really have no business expecting people to play along.

If your 'Revis'(disguised), commits a crime and is running away, his back to people? Thats one thing, but if you're expecting that you can walk up to the councilor of cordor and call her a fat sow to her face and have them play along with thinking thats actually Revis, you're asking an awful lot, especially if that PC actually knows Revis.

Think of it like persuade and intimidate. You can invest all the points in them you like. If you aren't actually persuasive or menacing? Its almost surely going to be ignored.

Another thing, and a problem with your proposed scenario. If you are trying to ruin his reputation... how often are you planning on doing this really? Once or twice, its probably fine, But if you made a habit of constantly spoofing someone to get them harrassed, killed, exiled, etc, at what point is it indistinguishable from griefing? Pickpocketing has a limit. PvP has a limit. Smashing someone's fixtures has a limit. Where is the threshold that protects Revis' player's enjoyment from being tanked by your shenanigans?
[/quote]

Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
I am however in favor of keeping it, and having the (Disguised) tag show up if someone "Breaks the disguise" As I think that is more immersive. Personally I think that if you break a disguise you should see that they are disguised, but may not necessarily know who is the one who is disguised.
No. The tag exists so that spoofing other people and doing things that generate reports and harm someone's OOC reputation is literally impossible. What you suggest would be a headache for everyone, including and especially the DMs, because it would be abused.
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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 am

If it wasn't after the name, it would make it a LOT harder for us when doing research on cases.

There could be a huge host of problems without that indicator even for players. It's a very bad idea to remove it.

I don't see it ever going away.
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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Zed » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:05 am

DM Titania wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:16 am
If it wasn't after the name, it would make it a LOT harder for us when doing research on cases.

There could be a huge host of problems without that indicator even for players. It's a very bad idea to remove it.

I don't see it ever going away.

Above everything else I actually do not still understand why this is a factor. I get that this is a thing but honestly isnt the Disguise system a seperate script, and if it is how is it that after so many years of the disguise system there is no secondary way to see what player is whom?

Regardless of a lot of argumentation about this system, this does seem like a fatal flaw in checks and makes me worry about other systems the DMs have to actually identify rule breaks happen.

Not that its your fault titania, but I cant help but wonder.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Zed » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:19 am

Durvayas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:07 am
Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
Something as simple as meeting with a friend in the nomad is metagaming in its truest form, but i am certain many on the server do it. Its not pervasive, but it happens.
I'm going to point out that this has LONG been considered 100% okay by the DM team for years. Metagaming your friend's location to meet up and RP is considered benign metagaming, and is fine. Metagaming your friend's location because they're in trouble and then showing up to PvP, conversely, is not okay.


Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
I could never pretend to be the character "Rivis" Because if I did, even if I looked exactly like him, I would be "Rivis (Disguised)" His evil twin brother. And it can range from an unconcious level to a completely overt level of "Thats obviously not Rivis" even if I had 150 Bluff/Perform. The second one person does it then it is ruined.

... If my character decided he wanted to ruin a characters rep, say... by stealing gold in bendir disguised as "Rivis (Disguised)" Players would treat me differently, even on a subconcious level, and when confronted they could just say "Well you were acting differently than Rivis would, so my character suspected you" - Is this then metagaming, or is it not, and if it is not, at what point does it fall into meta gaming territory. and how do the DMs identify it when a flimsy excuse is all you need to break the metagaming rule?
This has a whole other host of problems. Namely that you are conflating rollplay (IE: "lol I invested in bluff, so your character can't possibly know that I'm not Revis because you didn't build for spot, regardless of if your PC is Revis' actual family")
... with roleplay.

I have a twin brother IRL. I've lived with him all my life, and we've only ever been apart for a span of six months. If I was approached by someone who claims to be him, even if they looked absolutely identical, I'd be able to tell whether or not that individual was my brother the second they open their mouth to speak; He has this thing he does with his eyes when he's about to say something.

Quite simply, if you don't have Revis' description(not just his name, his entire description), mannerisms, voice, etc, and you are not actively roleplaying your disguise? You had better be a good ten meters or so away from people who actually know Revis, because its a stretch in logic to expect to trick people who know the real deal. WYSIWYG. If you, as a roleplayer, are not up to the task of really disguising and pretending to be someone convincingly, you really have no business expecting people to play along.

If your 'Revis'(disguised), commits a crime and is running away, his back to people? Thats one thing, but if you're expecting that you can walk up to the councilor of cordor and call her a fat sow to her face and have them play along with thinking thats actually Revis, you're asking an awful lot, especially if that PC actually knows Revis.

Think of it like persuade and intimidate. You can invest all the points in them you like. If you aren't actually persuasive or menacing? Its almost surely going to be ignored.

Another thing, and a problem with your proposed scenario. If you are trying to ruin his reputation... how often are you planning on doing this really? Once or twice, its probably fine, But if you made a habit of constantly spoofing someone to get them harrassed, killed, exiled, etc, at what point is it indistinguishable from griefing? Pickpocketing has a limit. PvP has a limit. Smashing someone's fixtures has a limit. Where is the threshold that protects Revis' player's enjoyment from being tanked by your shenanigans?
Zed wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:43 pm
I am however in favor of keeping it, and having the (Disguised) tag show up if someone "Breaks the disguise" As I think that is more immersive. Personally I think that if you break a disguise you should see that they are disguised, but may not necessarily know who is the one who is disguised.
No. The tag exists so that spoofing other people and doing things that generate reports and harm someone's OOC reputation is literally impossible. What you suggest would be a headache for everyone, including and especially the DMs, because it would be abused.
[/quote]

A lot of your arguement is over exagurated off of simple concepts. It has nothing to do with disguising to be somones brother it was an example that you are conflaiting as the only issue. It is about people purposefully creating flimsy excuses to get around mechanical features so that they can Juuuuusst skirt by the rules so as to not get in trouble.

The disguise system works a number pf ways to help PCs do things that enhance role play. But that role play can be distinctly hindered by people metagaming.

One person metagames and calls out that such and such player is not who they claim to be. And you cannot just ignore thay happening. Yes its a rulebreak, yes it can be ruled. But othee players in that situation have to deal with the consequences.

For example.

Person X will be our disguised;
Perssons W,Y,Z are all in town

X walks into a town he is exiled from in disguise.

Person Y knows somehow person X has gotten into town through meta information, but cant break his disguise, now he really doesnt like Person X and thinks they are no good for the server and calls him out in game because he just "doesnt like the look of that one dude that strolled in through the gate" so he says "hey everyone thats person X! Hes in disguise!"

Persons W and Z go and take down Person X. Now person X writes out a report. But it takes 3 to 4 IRL days for any follow up. Durring that time a DM pulls Person Y aside and says "what was your reason for calling out X?"
"well my guy is just susper suspicious"
The DM takes this as a good enough excuse. And Person X is the one that is essentially punished because their RP is shut down due to this.


In this situation I made it blatant thay meta was present. But from the DMs perspective it wouldnt have been.

Player W and Z arent at fault because they gained this info IC.

Being on the recieving end of this sucks. Pure and simple.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:19 am

While I would personally love to see the (disguise) tag go away, there are too many good arguments for the other side to ignore.

Remember, the name tag has and always will be purely OOC. Just because there's a floaty name above your character doesn't mean my character automatically recognizes their name. In that line of thinking, we might as well get rid of the name tag entirely -- or replace it with something like "Female Human".

If someone is metagaming your disguise, the only right thing to do is report them.
Last edited by MissEvelyn on Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nobs » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:19 am

But then you are already meta gamed and the rp in that moment is ruined.

Would it not be better to simply put a rule up stating that if you abuse it for wierd stuff like Titania spoke of to just get a perma ban from the server?
I doubt folks would actauly abuse it then...Well maybe 2 rotten apples but im rather sure that would be less work for the dm team then having to deal with meta gaming reports in the years to come.

Then again im not a codemonkey so what do i know ;p

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Richørd » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:08 am

Folks, don't take this personal but I think you are being overly paranoid with this issue.

If you can't act in good faith and simply trust other players to not metagame then it seems to me that the issue might just be on your side. Learn how to not act on a pirate with mechanical tattoos while they covered their entire body in armor. Learn to ignore a slave collar if the character description specifically states that they RP having their neck hidden beneath a pulled up cloak.

Learn to ignore the (Disguise) in their floaty name and carry on, interacting with them as you normally would.

EDIT: To be extra clear I'll just do a rough quote from a very famous piece of literature. "Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you."

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Nobs » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:41 pm

Trust is earned where im from , and so far i bin meta gamed a few good times...

Made a report one time when it was super obvius but did not get any word back from the dm team but the rp was for sure ruined.

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Re: (disguise) after character names

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:44 pm

Then send a follow up and ask for an update until you get a response. We try very hard to make sure we at least send a "We see it and are looking into it".

For the entire existence of EE so far, -disguise has been difficult to judge on because of the system not working. Now it works.
Please don't feed my sister.

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