Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Cerk Evermoore
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:14 am

Because you can't break into quarters currently due to in game mechanical limitations unless you have a legacy character with several BiS lockpicking artifacts with a 30 bard, which to my knowledge is nobody is currently playing any characters with that kind of equipment.

Unlike Disarm where you're just some dude with high AB and a truestrike potion.

User avatar
Eters
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Eters » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:22 am

Personally I think disarm is fine the way it is, there are clear ways to avoid being disarmed, if you don't pay attention and lose your sword, well, pay more attention.

The server is already lacking from a painful lack of consequences, people lose their heads on the daily and don't really care, death is a joke, and every PvP feels like we're some odd loop land where the same people come back again and again, if it takes someone to lose their weapon to hurt them and well, make them suffer consequences for their actions? So be it.

I think people don't yet realize that PvP comes with consequences, just think about those 492 hours of pain and labor before choosing to fight someone, and if you think putting them in risk in that fight is worth it, then do it. But if you lose your sword due to miscalculations, then that's how it goes.

As for true strikes, you see them coming from a mile away, you can just back off and let it waste, what I'd suggest perhaps, for the sake of balance, is putting a cooldown on the disarm itself, allowing one to only do it once per two or three minutes for example, which would make people far more tactical about how to use it, rather than keep spamming it over and over and over.

User avatar
Seekeepeek
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:44 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Seekeepeek » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:30 am

i have characters with disarm.
i never use it in PvP anymore, since it's bug my moral OOC, and I'd hate if the weapon got stuck on the ground by a bug. (so you can't pick it up)
i also found it immersion breaking in a roleplay setting, that a successful disarm is followed by an OOC conversation were the disarmed player will ask about getting his/her weapon back.

after that you have to do semi meta gaming things to get the weapon back to the player. it's just to much work...

so iam all for making it so disarm put the weapon back in the inventory of the one who get disarmed. their ab will be lowered for a while since there is the change weapon script anyways when they take it into their hands again?

User avatar
The Kriv
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:44 am

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by The Kriv » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:53 pm

Disarm (like Knockdown) is one of those poorly implemented mechanics in this video game adaptation of D&D - a table-top RPG.

The very fact that you have a Feat that can only be defended against by investment of skill points for combat scenario (particularly in player vs player) is just wanktastic.

If I had any coding ability, and was motivated to tackle this, and had the time, and maybe a ham sandwich, I would alter the mechanic so that you take a FEAT to activate/enable a special ability, then success/failure depends on a skill roll vs a skill roll.

IMO, "discipline" skill and all it's applications within NWN was a poor solution to the various systems that are very separate in 3rd Ed. D&D (which NWN is supposed to emulate) If anyone is curious as to the way Disarm is supposed to work per 3rd Edition rules, see this link: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disarm -if anyone has any suggestions to modifications... using this as inspiration would be more in line with how it is 'supposed' to work... and not just a "what if we did THIS thing off the top of your head or a suggestion based on how similar things work in an altogether different game.

Disarm in D&D is an attack-roll vs an attack roll.

Disarm provokes an attack of opportunity, to which the opponent CAN MADE THE SAME DISARM vs YOU... and picking up the disarmed weapon is an unarmed action...

to "pick up" anything during combat should require at least one empty hand. the whole idea of a weapon+shielded attacker snatching up my weapon without me so much as having the chance to dive for it myself... (what shall we call that mechanic? mmmm... how about something random like... REFLEX!!!) ...that's just silly.

You going to unarm yourself so you can reach down, pick MY weapon up and put it in YOUR pack without me being able to interfere... especially considering, you have to avert your attention from ME... focus on that weapon now lying on the ground... reach for it since likely it is closer to me than you... or at minimum equal distance from each of us... and "I" don't get to interfere with this attempt? THEN re-arm YOURSELF with the weapon you just put away and attack me again in the same turn? What's the word I'm thinking of... oh yeah. "Broken".

if there were any change made to this.. i would say an attacker CANNOT pick up a disarmed weapon unless they free up one hand... and then they can ONLY instantly equip that weapon in that hand... or at minimum... the act of picking up MY disarmed weapon on the ground CAUSES YOU to drop YOUR weapon (because you throw down your weapon (free action) to pick up my weapon (free action)). stowing a weapon is not a free action (even though NWN treats it like it is) and stowing a weapon while you already have weapons in your hands? yeah no. Broken. And if you are weilding a 2-handed weapon... the act of picking up my Disarmed Weapon means you no longer are gripping that two-handed weapon with TWO HANDS.


in addition, in 3rd Edition D&D there is also Ranged Disarm (oh you AA's are really missing out!) - NWN has a lot of amazing and super fun aspects that really shine. Disarm isn't one of them.
-Unit of beauty required to launch one ship = 1 milihelen

User avatar
Lady Astray
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:21 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Lady Astray » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:06 pm

I've had literal nightmares about being disarmed though it has never happened to me. I've also invested every skill point I can into discipline, and stacked the +2 discipline bonus on my gear up to +12. Even after taking all these precautions it sucks knowing I could easily lose my weapon the moment someone chugs a True Strike potion and decides to start spamming Improved Disarm at me. I do keep a spare weapon just in case. At minimum though it takes at least 225,000 gold to buy the materials to make another one, and simply finding one of these materials in a shop is a rare event.

I think having the weapon drop into the owner's inventory with a timer or an AB penalty for re-equipping it would be a fair change. Being able to obtain a weapon you can sell for 500,000 gold just by drinking one potion and spamming one skill is broken. The devs nerfed epic dungeons to the point nobody even wants to do them anymore, because they thought we were making too much gold. Well I think being able to make 500,000 gold a day is too much gold. As it is now you just build a character around disarm, get a few true strike potions, and you can have over a million gold in just 2-3 days just from selling moonblades.

Worst part is you don't even have to be good at PVP or win the encounter, just land that one disarm, pick up their weapon, and wait to die. Respawn and make half a million gold selling their weapon while they quit the game or roll their character. I can definitely see why some people would just sheathe their weapon and wait to die whenever confronted by someone with a big two-handed weapon. Right now the disarm mechanics break any semblance of an economy on the server, cause metagaming and avoidance of PVP, and are completely unavoidable even after you take the precaution of dumping most of your skill points into Discipline and getting +2 Discipline gear. At the very least perhaps make it so the +20 AB from True Strike doesn't count toward Disarm attempts. Then you can argue we actually have a way to avoid being disarmed.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1584
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:11 pm

Not a fan of Disarm at all as it currently is. It could be such a flavorful feat if only it actually disarmed the weapon, not entirely took it up for grabs by anyone nearby.

I agree with the impeccable arguments made for changing the feat to drop in inventory and either disallow being equipped or equip with a heavy penalty for X rounds.


User avatar
Lady Astray
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:21 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Lady Astray » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:17 pm

I saw this on the page linked to by The Kriv.
Note
A defender wearing spiked gauntlets can’t be disarmed. A defender using a weapon attached to a locked gauntlet gets a +10 bonus to resist being disarmed.
Please give spiked gauntlets devs.

User avatar
Astegard
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:10 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Astegard » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:22 pm

Maybe the current system that prevents muling of items can be tuned to allow you to bind a weapon to your character through in game means/crafting?

Meaning only your character can pick it up, the rest get a "no muling allowed"/Tailored message.
This way you would need to make an investment to not get your weapon stolen and add extra flavor to it as its bound to you.

Downsides:
Your allies cant pick it up either. (Maybe tie the weapon to another item/token that summons the weapon to your inventory?
I dont know how hard this is to implement technically.)

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:29 pm

I think the line about "disarm is fine being the way it is because it enforces consequences for losing or dying" is kind of the wrong way at looking at things. I don't think it's a very healthy mentality to have where you want to force consequences on people because you don't feel that it's a common enough behaviour to RP being dead or rolling your character afterward or something. It just seems rooted in a somewhat toxic bitterness, kind of unhealthy.

Otherwise I think I concur pretty tightly with Marsi's post. Arelith is simply not a server where the ability to lose such a closely valued item as a weapon really "fits" with the rest of the server's mechanics; you can't lose a ring, or a helmet, or a cloak. Why should the weapon be any different? There are multiple ways to counter a pickpocket, or a thief but for disarm there's only discipline. Discipline that simply can't compare to the numbers gleaned from a truestrike potion, or for some (namely, non-STR characters) even normal attacks.

Disarm by itself isn't even necessarily a bad feat completely divorced of, well, disarming -- with a large weapon, used against small/tiny weapons you gain some pretty enormous AB bonuses.

I guess I just don't like the idea of a feat kept in its current implementation by a sort of OOC honour system; it'd be laughably easy to go and abuse the feats -- enforcing "consequences" that last much longer than the penalties for getting your head cut off... which is weird to say. I don't think that's an unfair assessment or particularly hot take.

It just doesn't jive with everything else. It kind of sticks out, and it's for that reason I have the biggest scruple with it.

Edit: Also Durvayas has a point about the weapon-sticking-to-the-ground thing, that's a big problem!

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm

I sympathize with the fear of losing a 5% weapon. However, I have a question.

How many people have lost a 5% weapon to disarm in this thread? How many of those individuals can claim they did everything they could to avoid that fight before it happened- including not being armed in the presence of a superior hostile force and just running?

Of the people left who said yes, how many of you reported it, and how many of those received no follow-up on the DM's part?

Now, let me change the scenario- pick pocket and open lock haven't gone away. I know plenty of people that keep items of immense worth (in terms of both gold and RP sentimentality) in their storage chests.

Why are your weapons more sacred than these storage chests that dev time needs to be taken away from coding?

I hear a lot of "this awful specific set of circumstances could happen all the time if everyone I play with is a bad person," with little actual backing of our players being awful people- because we tend not to be!

I'd prefer that the devs focus on EE-based updates rather than fixing a feat that does what it's supposed to- albeit I would be fine with Kriv's AB version being included, for knockdown as well... after some other much more important things. Like maybe finding a way to fix the weapon getting stuck to the ground/detecting it occur and spawning a replacement somehow. (Since that part is just broken and sucks).
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:37 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm
Why are your weapons more sacred than these storage chests that dev time needs to be taken away from coding?
This is and has always been a dishonest argument, don't use the devs as a guilt trip like that. They have and always will work on things that they feel are compelling, not "EE-based updates" (what does that even mean?)

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:41 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:37 pm
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm
Why are your weapons more sacred than these storage chests that dev time needs to be taken away from coding?
This is and has always been a dishonest argument, don't use the devs as a guilt trip like that. They have and always will work on things that they feel are compelling, not "EE-based updates" (what does that even mean?)
It's not dishonest- yes, they use their time on what they want, but that doesn't mean that I don't hope they find something else more important. I appreciate all their work, but I'm a fairly big fan in general of not neutering feats, with the exception of devastating critical.

It's not about guilt tripping them. Objectively speaking, the value of Dev time for coding things that are important (to them) versus things that can be handled with a DM Report is often cited as a reason suggestions are rejected.

Other than the weapon bugging out and sticking to the ground, the majority of this thread, like threads about the negativity of pick pocketing and quarter breaking, center around rule breaks that should be handled with DM reports.

I may not be staff, but if I'm following history, this falls in line with that.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:44 pm

It's absolutely dishonest. "Things that are important" is so vague it's more punchline than argument.

It's not about DM reports, at least not from how I feel I've explained things, it's simply about divergence in direction from the rest of the server's mechanics. Yes it's easy to abuse, but ultimately that's a relatively small part of my own opinion; others may disagree but I don't think it's fair for you to attempt to make them feel whiny and demanding simply because you're not a big fan of neutering feats.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:47 pm

"Things that are important," is subjective, and implies "to them," since they're the ones making the call.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel whiny, and if my stance that the feats don't need to be changed (supported by logical reasoning and other server-relevant examples) make them feel that way rather than offering solid counter-points (the main one being that your weapon getting stuck to the ground is crappy and I acknowledge it) makes them feel that way, I would argue that me being the change I want to see doesn't make me mean or dishonest, just a different type of gamer.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Nitro » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:09 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:44 pm
It's not about DM reports, at least not from how I feel I've explained things, it's simply about divergence in direction from the rest of the server's mechanics.
Is it though? This in particular I don't think I agree with. We have durability which will destroy items if you don't take precautions to keep them repaired. We have pickpocketing which you have no defense against except really high spot scores (and even then you just detect the attempt, there's literally no way to stop the pickpocketing from happening if the pickpocketer has 30 or more skill ranks). We have quarter locks which cap out at a level where a single hyperdedicated lockpicker or two characters working together can reliably break into quarters to steal any one item/stack of choice, which doesn't have any defense against it at all.

Disarm has a direct counter (Discipline) and if someone chugs a truestrike potion you have plenty of time to pocket your weapon, run away or both. If you're going up against someone using a greatsword while you have a tiny weapon you should absolutely take into consideration that they might use disarm, if nothing else than for the fact that it'll give them a bunch more AB due to the weapon size difference.

Losing a weapon might sting, but at the end of the day, is it actually worse than having someone breaking into your quarters to steal something valuable from a chest or losing a stack of rubies to a pickpocket? And if it's happening repeatedly, you do as you should to all instances of thievery and report it to the DM's. Heck if it's only happened to you once but felt cheesy report it to the DM's because they can look at the situation from all angles, like in every instance of thievery.

strong yeet
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by strong yeet » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:35 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:47 pm
"Things that are important," is subjective, and implies "to them," since they're the ones making the call.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel whiny, and if my stance that the feats don't need to be changed (supported by logical reasoning and other server-relevant examples) make them feel that way rather than offering solid counter-points (the main one being that your weapon getting stuck to the ground is crappy and I acknowledge it) makes them feel that way, I would argue that me being the change I want to see doesn't make me mean or dishonest, just a different type of gamer.
I'd certainly concur with you but I don't think facts & logic are what you've posited at all (editing your own posts after mine after my assertion of dishonesty being, well, whatever you'd call it).

There were plenty of solid counter-points from a lot of other posters that you've not touched on even to the slightest degree, only focusing on the singular one of it being easy to abuse -- to which one could say that soaking up DM time with lengthy investigations as to who's doing what, whether they're really doing something with ill intent, etc. is more of an issue than a feat rework. Is it really? I don't know. I'm not part of the staff. I don't know how much time that takes. I'm not bringing it up as a real point for my opinion because I've simply no idea as to what goes on; perhaps they've already decided that Disarm needs a change and are working on it now? It's irrelevant, because you don't know and I don't know and using an impossibility to discern as a flat appeal to authority for part of your argument is as I said: dishonest.

Like I said before, changing the feat to not cause weapon loss wouldn't really even neuter it; it'd certainly be weaker against the majority of people/builds/whatever but I don't think it's possible to call an AB bonus of up to +8 neutered by any stretch of the word. It's still a worthwhile pickup, especially if there was more work done to where disarmed items couldn't be re-equipped or were faced with decent sized AB penalties if they were re-equipped.
Nitro wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:09 pm
Is it though? This in particular I don't think I agree with. We have durability which will destroy items if you don't take precautions to keep them repaired. We have pickpocketing which you have no defense against except really high spot scores (and even then you just detect the attempt, there's literally no way to stop the pickpocketing from happening if the pickpocketer has 30 or more skill ranks). We have quarter locks which cap out at a level where a single hyperdedicated lockpicker or two characters working together can reliably break into quarters to steal any one item/stack of choice, which doesn't have any defense against it at all.

Disarm has a direct counter (Discipline) and if someone chugs a truestrike potion you have plenty of time to pocket your weapon, run away or both. If you're going up against someone using a greatsword while you have a tiny weapon you should absolutely take into consideration that they might use disarm, if nothing else than for the fact that it'll give them a bunch more AB due to the weapon size difference.

Losing a weapon might sting, but at the end of the day, is it actually worse than having someone breaking into your quarters to steal something valuable from a chest or losing a stack of rubies to a pickpocket? And if it's happening repeatedly, you do as you should to all instances of thievery and report it to the DM's. Heck if it's only happened to you once but felt cheesy report it to the DM's because they can look at the situation from all angles, like in every instance of thievery.
You can use blade-orbs to "dissuade" pickpockets, which are a very common drop from humanoid monsters/NPCs. Killing a pickpocket a certain amount of time after a detected attempt will result in the item stolen being returned to your inventory. And yeah you can break into peoples' houses with a dedicated team of two relatively unscrupulous players and just take stuff from people with no interaction and be completely within the rules. I don't think that supports your point so much as it does bring light to a different, also bad thing.

Like I have said a few times, using disarm against a tiny weapon like a dagger with a large weapon like a greataxe will result in a +8 AB bonus. Coupled with the innate +2 of two-handed weapons, I don't think there are many AC scores that can keep up with those kinds of numbers. You don't need the threat of a pretty permanent loss to your inventory (that does not exist in any other similar forms, has very specific rulings dedicated to it and it alone. thus my entire spiel about this topic) for Dagger M. Ann to go "greatsword disarm very bad for me."

User avatar
Lady Astray
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:21 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Lady Astray » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:38 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:09 pm
Losing a weapon might sting, but at the end of the day, is it actually worse than having someone breaking into your quarters to steal something valuable from a chest or losing a stack of rubies to a pickpocket?
Yes. A lot worse.

User avatar
Royal Blood
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:49 pm

I think that Disarm, like many, many things in game relies on people being cool and handling it in a way that isn't trolling people.

Disarm may add an alternative to death, I think it's.. Funny that OOC we'd rather die then lose our weapon. That banks upon a low key outlook that I think is really lame. Looking at the character in a 'real' sense, I am sure they'd much rather be disarmed then killed.
Disarming also allows for interesting plots. Myon for example has specific blades that are 'blessed' by the city. Meaning that acquiring one of these somehow would be a way to provoke RP.

But it all comes back to the first thing I said, if some guy is running around disarming people then going "Haha, guess you shouldn't fight me." Or maybe they disarm you, you capture them and they refuse to give the weapon up even though it's in their inventory.

then Disarm becomes cheesy and annoying.

It's the same for PVP in general, there is an argument that there isn't enough consequence for PVP, but at the same time if there was greater consequence for PVP fellows who bank on the ability to kill people to force their RP through would be empowered. King of The Hill would be whoever has the most optimal pvp build and it's already like that often enough as it is.

So the system, like always, relies on people not abusing it.

The suggestion to maybe recode it to offer AB penalities seems sort of neat. But I kind of like the RP opportunity disarm offers by being able to -get- a warriors sword.

True strike is brought up, but I don't think that is different from anything else. For example, there are plenty of 1 cast, instant death spells that if you don't prepare for you die. That's how NWN is I guess, same with Disarm. You have to prepare ahead of time, or be conciously mindful of how a fight develops if you want to avoid being instantly killed or disarmed
I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

User avatar
Echohawk
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:31 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Echohawk » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:16 pm

Seems like there's a lot of assumed and presumed salt in the community.
If someone does it a lot, report them. We've all made our mistakes whether it was done by ourselves or another person, but Arelith is mostly player driven unless they break the golden rules.
And when we do presume that they break the rules, you send it up to the DMs. Since if they destroyed your weapon via el trashbino diablo, there's nothing then even the other player could do to return it to the living.

Image
Arelith Discord: https://discord.gg/mAm8M3T
Echohawk#0623
Availability - Whenever, Sweden (GMT+1)

Volograd
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:19 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Volograd » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:56 pm

Relying on the honor system is a great way to ensure that Arelith's player base takes a hit over the long term. I've only been here a few months, and this is the best community I've been a part of, no contest. But that being said, there's always a scumbag just around the corner who might muck it up for someone. And if that someone outright quits, then we -all- suffer for it. Lost player, lost stories, lost experiences. The only winner is the one with the stolen weapon.

It is in the end just a game. A game of make believe that doesn't exist outside of the code. But we each enjoy it differently, and that includes a swathe of players for whom their equipment is just as important as their character itself. And that's because it's a means to an end. Taking away from their enjoyment is cold and uninviting, especially when the solution (up for continued debate) allows for everyone to have theirs.

I'd vote for disarm to drop a weapon into a player's inventory with a cooldown before being able to re-equip. Make the feat retain its core uses, while eliminating any grief. I really don't see a downside here.

Wrips
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Wrips » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:02 pm

The fact Improved Disarm can be used to greatly increase a player's wealth while not only subtracting it from another player but actually hindering it's capacity to recover his progression for the foreseeable future - in a single encounter - is grave enough in terms of balance, to me. There's absolutely nothing similar to it in the server, as others have also pointed out.

User avatar
CosmicOrderV
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 389
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:10 pm

What I'm reading so far is that dying should degrade our gear, and there should be a small cooldown on disarm use (like taunt has).

Not terrible ideas.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

magistrasa
Posts: 667
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by magistrasa » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:13 pm

Garveus wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:24 am
I believe the gist of this issue is that a mechanical (not even RP action; purely mechanical) IC action you are forcibly made part of has far-reaching, long-lasting and extremely impactful OOC consequences, while at the same time fundamentally zero IC RP consequences.
There is no "out of character action" in-game. Whatever happens in Arelith, happens to your character. That includes fatigue after having been returned to life by a higher power, that includes the work put into acquiring a powerful weapon, and that includes having that powerful weapon taken from you. I think this statement comes from a particularly damaging mindset on the server where people want to ignore what they don't like - so when something bad happens to them that they can't ignore, it's treated like some sort of OOC-based assault on themselves personally. In truth, Arelith is a persistent world, and the things that happen are a reality to whatever character you play. Your characters don't know what OOC means, and for as long as you play them, you should endeavor to forget it exists.

More on the subject of disarm, I agree that the reactions in this thread seem to come from a place of pessimism and an utter lack of faith in our fellow players. Speaking personally, I don't know if I've seen or heard of any actual disarm-griefers, but I know a handful of stories where disarming or being disarmed leading to interesting moments of character development and storylines of their own. It's a unique experience you don't get in any other aspect of the game, because of the circumstances and consequences attached. I appreciate that about the disarm feat, from a hypothetical standpoint, though I haven't experienced it personally.

The thought I keep having with regards to the "hours spent" crafting an epic weapon is, why is it such a big deal? And if it is, shouldn't it be considered that crafting requirements be reduced? Consider the fact that you can make a given weapon a collaborative project among friends - anyone can use their crafting points on a work in progress after all, and even if you've only got one point invested in forging, you're gonna contribute any time you happen to roll a 20. Get a few friends together or commission some of the local blacksmiths and, material gathering aside, you can hammer that thing out in a day or two. (I appreciate crafting commissions because it's a chance for characters who would otherwise not interact to have some time together, but maybe that's just me.)

I don't think disarming should be taken from the game. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to mechanics set up that reduce its spammability? Maybe a one-round cooldown or something like that (which I believe was mentioned somewhere here already). I think the problems that people attribute to the feat are rather hyperbolized, or maybe self-afflicted, so I wouldn't mess with it too much beyond that.

× Career Sharran × MILF Supreme × Artist (Allegedly) ×
Will Trade Art For Groceries Again Eventually


Xerah
Posts: 2036
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Xerah » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:02 pm

Disarm dropping your weapon to the ground is a really really really terrible part of Arelith. In all the PWs I've played, only the hardcore ones are the ones where the weapon actually goes to the ground. And that's fine. But that is not what Arelith is.

I have seen Disarm griefers target someone before and luckily, the DMs forced the players to give it back, but it was pretty clear their intent was to do go and target people to steal weapons.

If someone sent me a tell saying "I got this idea but I need to get your weapon from you," well, chances are, it would find its way to the ground by itself.
Katernin Bersk, Chancellor of Divination; Kerri Amblecrown, Paladin of Milil; Xull'kacha Auvry'rae, Redcap Fey-pacted; Sadia yr Thuravya el Bhirax, Priestess of Umberlee; Lissa Whitehorn, Archmage of Artifice

Biolab00
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 323
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Biolab00 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Hmm...
I'm just thinking on a "real life perspective".
The point that a bigger weapon can disarm a smaller weapon is generally because in combat, the bigger guy flung his weapon off his hands. Hence... logically, the weapon should fly to the ground.
Well... i guess that's the point of why disarm makes weapon drops to ground.
If it went back to your inventory, then it's probably not logical?

Well... it depends on how players want it to be played, either it be real or just make it a joke.

Of course... that also gives people to mention a point that if we make things as real as it can be.
When someone was just killed, logically his whole equipment should be looted, including his valuables.

Well... This is rather tricky... no?

Locked