Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

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Dagonlives
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Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Dagonlives » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:06 am

I have started this thread because of what I believe is a mechanical oversight which is costing many players their enjoyment of Arelith. That being the Improved Disarm and Disarm feats.

The mechanic itself is fine, and requires no particular change. For reference, it is a special two feat investment combat maneuver that gives a chance for a player to make a roll to remove a weapon from a creature or other players main hand, which drops said item on the ground. Several monsters in Arelith use it, such as the Minogons. It's also a very common player choice for a two handed weapon build because it receives an increased attack bonus value versus smaller sized weapons.

The issue is that this mechanic forces a player to drop their items. A weapon in Arelith is often an endgame result of many hours invested. A mastercrafted weapon takes a minimum of 562 labour points, which takes roughly 26.4 hours to make minimum time in real life, assuming the player logs out and logs in at 2 hour and 24 minute intervals and does not sleep. (No one is going to do that.)

A powerfully made weapon in the enchanting well can take in excess of hundreds of player hours of effort to find, craft and use. I have had to make two new weapons recently for players who have been disarmed. I have observed players quitting Arelith or threatening to quit arelith over losing their epic tier weapons, and how genuinely stressed out these players are when they lose their weapons to another player.

I have been observing a repeating trend of players losing their weapons In player on player conflict. Arelith consequence for player on player conflict is designed to be relatively mild compared to other Neverwinter Nights servers. At best it's a near two hour debuff that still does not prevent any roleplay. However, the consequences of losing a weapon can be losing an investment of hundreds of hours of roleplay and investment.

The consequences do not match the relative loss. Dying should almost always be more consequential then near any other action mechanically. Yet being improved disarm is far worse. I personally would rather have my character suffer the death penalty ten or twenty times over consecutively, then lose my character's sword.

Example Scenario: Player A disarms player B and takes their weapon. Player B manages to kill player A. Player A had taken Player B's weapon and so will now respawn with that weapon intact in their inventory. Player B must now spend many hours making a new weapon. Player A just has a debuff timer. Even though Player A 'lost' the fight, they actually 'won' in terms of gain from the conflict. This is not how a game is supposed to work.

In such a manner, with this poorly weighted consequence it is possible for an improved disarm build to attack other players aggressively and steal their items with minimal consequence in return (Dying and suffering a debuff at worst). This isn't a very reasonable exchange, but I have observed it many times.

To summarize:

The fact that a player's weapon can be stolen as a result of being disarmed is not in line with the intended spirit of arelith's 'low consequence' environment.

Suggestion to fix the mechanic:

Code the feat so that disarmed weapons instead of being dropped to the ground, are instead equipped to the inventory of the disarmed player, thus they must draw the weapon once more. This effectively preserves the strength of the feat, while not permitted a weapon to be stolen.

Alternative Fix: OOC rule stating that players may not steal weapons from other players using improved Disarm. The 'Be Nice' rule is supposed to cover this, but I'm rarely seeing people 'be nice.'


I'm welcome to hear feedback from other players.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:30 am

Seems a little presumptuous to assume what level of consequence the server is 'meant' to have.

I personally feel the opposite way. Actions need consequence. It's not immersive otherwise, and that's what we're all here for, realize it or not. We want to feel like these things could be really happening. We want a story that can't be written, only lived. You don't get that without consequence. There are worse things than having to craft another item.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Dagonlives » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:44 am

It' is not presumptuous at all to realize that Arelith is intended as a low consequence environment that emphasizes player consent. It is observant. And your 'all's well ends well fallacy' doesn't address what I've wrote.

It takes an average of 20 tries to make a keen sword. That meant the average player spent 472 hours in game just making the swords required, neve rmind the gold, the adamantine, or other materials in time took to gather. It is a goal that realistically takes a few months to accomplish. And it can take even longer.. And the completion of that goal it can be undone by a very easy to use mechanic that can be easily abused.

.
Last edited by Dagonlives on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by ASuicideMissionForSure » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:03 am

Dagonlives wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:44 am
It' is not presumptuous at all to realize that Arelith is intended as a low consequence environment that emphasizes player consent.
I don't think this was ever intended to be the case. There isn't forced character deletion, that's about it...

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by CosmicOrderV » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:08 am

I'm not sure what you mean by an All's Well That Ends Well fallacy. I thought I was saying the opposite. Not everything ends well, and that's okay. Conflict makes for a good story. If someone is stealing weapons, slander them. Raise mobs against them. Bring consequence. You can have that character ostracized. If they repeatedly do it, breaking rules, report them.

If anything, what I'm hearing is, death doesn't have enough consequence, that you think losing your weapon is the worst thing that could happen.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:10 am

What about no full combat looting? What about lenses and no ruling on just instantly using them to escape? What about the low loss of exp on death.

When someone disarms your weapon, it's not like you can ever get that weapon back. Even if you kill them it's still in their inventory. Something that another player cannot access. That's why people love to disarm your weapon and instantly pick it up. I view it as exploiting game mechanics. (Lack of ability to retrieve said item.)

Where are the consequences in that? Only people who are facing any consequences are the victims of people who make disarm builds because they cause the most grief.

I could understand using it against a smaller weapon for the AB benefit. But that's not how I see disarm being used currently in game.

*Edit* and I find it odd we are arguing actions can have consequences when you can run in on a time stop, steal someone's weapon and get killed by their three friends and you'll still be declared the winner of that encounter.
You didn't die, some guy just ran up. Stole your weapon, shoved it into his bag and died and now you can't get it back.
That isn't actions having consequences, that's exploitative game mechanics having consequences.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 am

When someone rather sheath their weapon and die than lose the weapon you know something is flawed.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by susitsu » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:22 am

Meanwhile, now kamas are tiny.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Dagonlives » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:30 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 am
When someone rather sheath their weapon and die than lose the weapon you know something is flawed.
Exactly! I have witnessed this happen. I have done it myself.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:04 am

If I were to change it, make it so the weapon goes to the owner's inventory, but can't be equipped for a round.
Or don't, now we have weapon change penalties, so even if it were equipped instantly, the owner would still suffer the -5ab, which is pretty good.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:21 am

The cure to improved disarm is discipline. If you draw a keen longsword on a better fighter than you, and they disarm you, why wouldn't they take it?

I have two main points I want to comment on.

1: 472 hours- 472 hours of elapsed time is NOT the same thing, at all, as 472 hours in game. Your crafting timer resets while you're logged off. You could log in for a couple of minutes six times a day to get six full crafting cycles at an investment of about twelve to fifteen minutes of your time. Claiming a loss of 472 hours per keen sword is absolutely the worst case scenario, for a person who literally does nothing else with twelve hours all day every day, at best, and disingenuous, at worst.

2: Someone took two feats so they could do nothing other than attempt to disarm you. If you know the other fighter is better than you, to the point that they can disarm you and take your weapon, and you get into the fight anyway, I posit the idea that you should have done something more to avoid that fight happening- or if it was really that awfully unfair, they are probably rule-breaking, and should be reported.

Either way, I don't see why the feat should be gutted.

Edit: This message is a not-for-profit endeavor; Read as- I have no characters with the disarm feat, few with discipline ranks, and plenty of shiny toys to lose.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:27 am

/s If I kill you, why can't I take your armor and everything out of your backpack? If your dead, it's not like you can stop me from taking it!

Why is it that because you are a /better fighter/ you can shove my weapon into your magical backpack that only you can open and the only way to get it back is to negotiate/beg whoever took it from you who very well could just say. "Lol no." and you are pretty much shit out of luck.

and if removing the ability to steal the weapon completely is /gutting the feat/ even if direct alternatives have been suggested then where do we draw the line. Can you do a duo of a WM / bard and just run around curse songing peoples discipline and stealing weapons left and right with no consequences?

Is that the kind of server we want to play on, where the threat of mechanical disarmament is heavier then the penalties of death? This is a great skill for when you want to grief the opposing faction into stop playing.
Last edited by Cerk Evermoore on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Dagonlives » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:27 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:21 am
The cure to improved disarm is discipline. If you draw a keen longsword on a better fighter than you, and they disarm you, why wouldn't they take it?

I have two main points I want to comment on.

1: 472 hours- 472 hours of elapsed time is NOT the same thing, at all, as 472 hours in game. Your crafting timer resets while you're logged off. You could log in for a couple of minutes six times a day to get six full crafting cycles at an investment of about twelve to fifteen minutes of your time. Claiming a loss of 472 hours per keen sword is absolutely the worst case scenario, for a person who literally does nothing else with twelve hours all day every day, at best, and disingenuous, at worst.

2: Someone took two feats so they could do nothing other than attempt to disarm you. If you know the other fighter is better than you, to the point that they can disarm you and take your weapon, and you get into the fight anyway, I posit the idea that you should have done something more to avoid that fight happening- or if it was really that awfully unfair, they are probably rule-breaking, and should be reported.

Either way, I don't see why the feat should be gutted.

Edit: This message is a not-for-profit endeavor; Read as- I have no characters with the disarm feat, few with discipline ranks, and plenty of shiny toys to lose.
-I have observed players who immediately start a fight, cast timestop then disarm while the other player cannot do anything. Just to take their sword because they know how valuable it is. Arelith does not permit dry-looting. Why does it permit this I don't know.

Being forced to build discipline shouldn't be mandatory for fear of losing powerful items. It should be a choice, not a necessity over a broken mechanic.

My calculation was -only- crafting hours, assuming you never missed a cycle. Which is absurd. People sleep 6-8 hours a day if they are healthy. Moreover, I didn't count the raw materials or gold required, which is near 550k, and 20 adamantine bars, 40 mithral bars, and a ton of experience alone. Other players have said it averages 1600 hours according to normal schedule. That is an absurd thing to have stolen in a pvp on a server where you cannot even loot a corpse.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:35 am

Dagonlives wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:27 am
Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:21 am

2:... or if it was really that awfully unfair, they are probably rule-breaking, and should be reported.
-I have observed players who immediately start a fight, cast timestop then disarm while the other player cannot do anything. Just to take their sword because they know how valuable it is. Arelith does not permit dry-looting. Why does it permit this I don't know.
For the crux of your point, I've simply removed the irrelevant parts of my post and left the part I'm addressing- this is clearly a rule-break, and should be reported, it's not something that needs to be mechanically coded to the detriment of a pair of feats that are designed to do exactly what they do. Your implication that it is allowed is wrong, and it's why I'm arguing against the investment of developer time into modifying a feat that's good for one thing to do that thing less efficiently.



In regards to the time spent, I feel you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. I'm not talking about playing for 12 hours and not sleeping, except in the worst case scenario. Not everyone plays from mobile, but now that you can or even just if you're home, if you can make fifteen minutes a day at varying intervals to be at your computer, you can get six crafting cycles. That doesn't require unreasonable time investment, just organizational planning.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by dominantdrowess » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:01 am

As a disarm-specialized 2-hander, I actually agree with the op. Force un-equip would be ideal~ and disarm in many cases is superior to knockdown based on the size of the enemy's weapon even if it was a forced unequip for 5 seconds~ making BOTH feats situational and not absolutely devastating to a player's time-investment.

It isn't cool for someone with a low-farm-rate like a monk, to have to replace kama after kama, or kukri after kukri ... even if the ability to hit them based on higher AB is useful. There are only two times I disarmed people that I ever kept a weapon from players ... one was a repeat offender that refused to stop attacking people in town within a 24-hour period where DM's weren't online ... and one was the poor Herald of The Golden Halls.

And both times, looking back at them made me feel pretty terrible given that this is -literally- a fate worse than death due to current mechanics on Arelith.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 am

I think arguing over the amount of crafting time spent on a typical high end weapon is getting off topic. They're investments, enough said. Whether 50 or 500 hours is spent isn't going to be what sells this suggestion. Besides, it's different for everybody. I've had smith characters who could make their own weapons and for them it would be a pain in the butt, but manageable. I've had some who couldn't and had to go through extreme hoops to get something made for them and getting disarmed would be time to -delete.

I'd be curious what DMs say the actual rule is. I'd assume keeping someone's weapon is in included with the "steal one item a day" rule. We'd all prefer the disarmer to offer the weapon back through RP (making them beg or pay) but I'm not aware of any rule that says you're obliged to do that.

At the same time I think it would be better if it just dropped into inventory. This is yet another thing about this game that punishes players of smaller races much more than large, for one thing. For another, dropping anything on the ground in NWN is really risky. Even if the disarming player doesn't steal the weapon from the disarmed, there's a not zero chance the floor will bug and the item will be gone, or you'll get one of those weird but frequent errors timing people out or who knows what else.

Maybe another solution would be craftable weapon chains. Apply to melee weapons, if you're disarmed wearing one you lose the next round's attacks but don't drop the weapon.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Zed » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:05 am

The disarm rule is very specific. I had it confimed by a DM a while ago and I would like to find it on my discord but I for the life of me could not remember who it was.

But as far as i was made aware, the arelith rules state and mean that you can disarm and take 1 weapon per 24 hours. And this does not mean from the same,person, but from,anyone.

As somone who did PVP a lot and found the lack of consequences competitively a bit annoying I feel for you, but I do not believe that this feat should be changed. If you allow an unequip then those with their weapons hooked to their bars would instantly re equip their weapons and be back into the fight within the same round.

A better solution would be a script that did not allow anyone to pick up the weapon but it's owner for 3 or 4 Rounds.

Thats enough to allow a steal and enough time for somone to pick up their weapon (more than ample time)

Another solution would be to increase the consequences for dying. I dont see why not somone shouls lose their armor if they died enough times. I think durability loss on death would be a fantastic addition especially for those characters who die 4 or 5 times a day ( speaking as somone who generally does)

As to the original intent of the thread, I feel for you and if you think a rulebreaks was involved 100% send in a ticket. But I dont think the mechanic should be changed drastically to make a 2 feat investment worthless.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Marsi » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:17 am

I agree with Dagonlives completely. Arelith is a low consequence server where player creativity and possessions are afforded a great deal of protection as evidenced by the restrictions on pickpocketing, fixture bashing and theft and burgling, etc. Kill someone, corpsebash them, dance on their grave, but their inventory is sacrosanct. That is with the exclusion of disarm, which seems to stand alone.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Skibbles » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:43 am

As someone who has lost a very special weapon in the past to a disarm (it wasn't even keen, but I put a lot of thought into it and created a story and a description), being disarmed is a constant waking nightmare in a pvp fight especially as I now play a character that is by design more susceptible to discipline checks.

There is little to no roleplay value to such a meta feat (meta being that bags are magical and players know it, thus will happily drop their guard in a "life or death" battle just to scoop someone's weapon off the ground).

If everyone is so concerned with consequences going with death, you can just roleplay said consequences to your heart's content. That's the wonderful thing about Arelith - rarely are you fully subject to someone else's concept of good roleplay.

I think a successful disarm might be less grief-like if it returned the item to inventory and started a cool down timer much like a summon timer or otherwise. This seems like an everyone-wins adjustment.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Durvayas » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:12 am

Not being mentioned in the thread is the propensity for weapons to bug and stick on the ground, rendering them irretrievable unless a DM happens to be around to help. It happens about 10-20% of the time, which is enough of an issue that MANY servers have the disarm feats entirely disabled because, bar none, this feat is the most abusable for griefing purposes.

I've been advocating for years that arelith should disable or de-fang the OOC grief that comes with the disarm feat, be it getting hit by an NPC or a player.

Remember that even if you win, if your opponent is a monk, or if they pick up the weapon before death, there is no recourse. You cannot force a player to give your PC's weapon back. There is no ability that compares. Not even pickpocket does the kind of damage to a player's enjoyment of the game. As has been mentioned above, a PC's weapon is often the culmination of days or weeks of player effort, be it in crafting, or in farming gold and materials. Weapons are also often items with high RP value. Gold is cheap. If you lose a building to eviction its not a big stinging blow on an OOC level. You can easily make up the loss(The most expensive quarters are around 200k. If you grind endlessly, you can make that up in about 16 hours of dungeon time). Lose a weapon(that isn't a keen M damask)? Your ability to do dungeons is tanked until you get your hands on a replacement. Your ability to PvP is nonexistant. Everything you are doing PvE wise grinds to a halt as you have to go back to grinding dungeons several levels below yours until your weapon is replaced. The only people who don't care about being disarmed are clerics (bronze weapons) and unarmed monks.

Pickpocket does not allow your thief to steal the family heirloom right off of someone's neck, so why does arelith allow, no... encourage, theft of this nature? And no, the "Hehe, the rules say you can only steal one item per 24/hr" excuse that its all above board doesn't work. 99% of characters are only going to have one weapon, a weapon that the players invest a LOT of time and effort into getting.

Very often, people WILL choose to sheathe their weapon and die and get killbashed rather than let someone steal their weapon. Arelith isn't just about creating stories. Its about having fun creating stories, and I know I can recount many more instances of people having their weapons stolen maliciously and people being left with a sour taste in their mouths OOCly than I can recount instances where a stolen weapon resulted in a new or interesting, or most importantly, fun, storyline.

Arelith is an RP server designed around collaborative storytelling. Simply put, all of our systems are designed so that the loser in a conflict still has some agency.
You aren't allowed to permakill PCs, you can't dry loot people; virtually every aspect of conflict on arelith is designed around consent(slavery), and enforced interaction(eviction, exile, assassination, the PvP rules themselves), except for this particular feat. This is the only aspect of the game where if you are stuck in PvP you don't want(one-liner PvP anyone?), the consequences of not minmaxing is losing hundreds of hours of time invested. This is the one thing you can do in arelith to FORCE consequences onto another player; Not their character, the player.

People always advocate "Just build saves and discipline bruh" but that doesn't work. Haste, timestop, ID ID ID ID ID ad nauseum. Eventually, the other player is going to roll a 1, and the weapon is yours.

We know, for a fact, that its possible to code it so that disarmed weapons can be pushed into a PC's inventory, and their quickslots cleared. We know it can be done, its been done on other servers, it can be done here, and should.
We are an RP server. Not a PvP/action server. PvP should be a fun means to furthering stories, it should not be about building to steal equipped items, and we should not have feats whose function literally encourage exactly that.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Garveus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:24 am

I believe the gist of this issue is that a mechanical (not even RP action; purely mechanical) IC action you are forcibly made part of has far-reaching, long-lasting and extremely impactful OOC consequences, while at the same time fundamentally zero IC RP consequences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Arelith's death penalties were gradually reduced over the years to have lesser and lesser OOC effects with the same reasoning behind them. Similarly, there are changes to the Pickpocket skill too and theft in general. It's peculiar that Disarm has held its ground for so long.

And I'm sorry to say this, but I fail to understand why any players other than the ones exploiting it would be actively defending it. Perhaps that's too bold of an accusation, I apologize- I just can't possibly imagine doing this to someone, knowing well what the consequences equate to. Can you?

If I didn't make it clear enough, I think a lot of great, rational arguments made in favor of altering this mechanic were shared already. I wholeheartedly agree with them-this definitely should be tweaked, because Disarming PCs only to steal their weapons brings nothing positive to this game, at all.

I'd imagine a decision such as this is not an easy one when viewed from the standpoint of the server Staff, but I hope they'll change it. I put emphasis on change, because I'm pretty sure nobody wants Disarm outright removed or made entirely useless.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Woper_The_Black » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am

Make a ruling that if you're the one to instigate PvP and you disarm your opponent you have to return their weapon once the conflict is over, no matter who wins. I personally don't have a character that has disarm but my view on this is if you pick a fight with an unknown enemy and they have the capacity to remove your weapon for good that's a decision you've made, you take that risk. If your character is intentionally picking on others and instigating PvP just to steal their weapon the rule I suggested fixes this, no need to change a mechanic.

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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by monkeywithstick » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:03 am

The situation where from a mechanical perspective, "please kill me just don't steal my weapon" makes sense even on an ooc level is absolutely bonkers.
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Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Richørd » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am

Dagonlives wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:06 am

Suggestion to fix the mechanic:

Code the feat so that disarmed weapons instead of being dropped to the ground, are instead equipped to the inventory of the disarmed player, thus they must draw the weapon once more. This effectively preserves the strength of the feat, while not permitted a weapon to be stolen.

Alternative Fix: OOC rule stating that players may not steal weapons from other players using improved Disarm. The 'Be Nice' rule is supposed to cover this, but I'm rarely seeing people 'be nice.'


I'm welcome to hear feedback from other players.
Uh-huh ... *reads suggestion*

So basically have it so that the weapon gets knocked out of a characters hand and then does a tripple-backflip into it's owners inventory so they can re-equip it instantly when keybinding it to a slot? Sounds like that'd totally validate Improved Disarm and make it a reasonable investments of two feats. /sarcasm

Alright. I'll try to be less of a dirtbag now.

That "alternative fix" has so many issues that I can think of from the top of my head.
A drow disarms you and then kills you afterwards.
You respawn and then, an ingame month later, have the drow appearing at your doorstep.
"Sorry and not-sorry for totally cleaving your head open a month ago, filthy human. Here, have your masterly damask essenced scimitar back so that you can use it against me and my BDSM friends again."

And that's just one scenario I can think of.

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Improved Disarm and Unbalanced Consequence in PvP

Post by Nitro » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:08 am

I don't disagree that making a build solely to disarm other people and nick their stuff is a scumbag move, but the same goes for making a build aimed exclusively at breaking into peoples quarters.

Other than that, I don't really see how this is much different from breaking in to someones quarter and stealing a full stack of adamantine ingots. There's never been any limit to the value of a stolen item on Arelith (except mechanically for pickpockets) but only on the quantity, one item per day. And if someone is being a rude sausage going around doing nothing but stealing as often as they are allowed by the rules I'm pretty sure the DM's will clamp down on them for it.

Much like I think they'll clamp down on someone who's going around stealing an excessive amount of weapons via disarming.

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