Keyless Entry Discussion

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RedGiant
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Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by RedGiant » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:11 am

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=21072

I was just about to post this same suggestion when I saw this.

The problem, in essence, is this. Right now [create key/keyless entry] are one and the same faction option. Hannibal and I believe they should be two separate options.
[create key]
[keyless entry]

In short, there are many situations in which I would want to give keyless entry to a quarter, but NOT give the power to create keys at the same time.

The prime example is a ship crew.

Using the faction settings, I may want to give my crew access to the ship and manage their powers through ranks rather than handing out keys. Now I can step their powers to interact with the ship and its environs. I can promote them, reduce them, or straight out make them walk the plank...all without having to issue keys, recoup keys, or change the locks.

Currently, however, when I give them give them keyless entry...I also automatically give them the power to make physical keys.

They can then give every tom, dick, and harry who is NOT in the faction a key. Tom, Dick, and Harry now may access the ship forever without my knowledge.

I want my crew to be able to come and go on ship, operate the boat, and the ability to dynamically manage them. But, I don't want at the same time to give them the ability to permanently give other players keys.

These are two very separate powers.

Ergo, I think the powers really could use separating.

(Edit: I also think the making keys is cool and should stay for the same reasons. Not everyone is trying to manage a ship or a fortress, thus, not everyone might want to manage their quarter via the faction settings. Keys make perfect sense on their own.)

Or, are Hannibal and I both missing something obvious?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
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RedGiant
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by RedGiant » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:55 pm

Edit for clarity and bumped.
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Sycostick
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Sycostick » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:02 pm

I have always thought the same. Think they should be separate.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:13 pm

Them being separate would be a huge step towards quarter usage and being able to better share living spaces with people.

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Blood on my Lips
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Blood on my Lips » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:16 pm

The two functions really need to be separated.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by The Kriv » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:29 am

I was just setting up faction permissions and was thinking the exact same thing.

What I would like to see is "Keyless Entry" be stand-alone permission,

and add "Create Key" to also include Keyless Entry

i.e.:
Keyless Entry
Create Key (includes Keyless Entry)
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm

I don't like this idea to be honest. Guildhouses and quarters are already very secure fortresses. Getting a key off someone who has been given one is about the best way to gain entry to a place you're not supposed to. If we add a means for factions to let people in without giving them the ability to also generate keys, then why even bother having keys on the server? They would just be a worse security alternative than sharing out the magical touch that your is your faction to let people through.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Durvayas » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:12 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm
I don't like this idea to be honest. Guildhouses and quarters are already very secure fortresses. Getting a key off someone who has been given one is about the best way to gain entry to a place you're not supposed to.
The point is that there is no counterplay to this whatsoever. In response to a major theft or breach, the owner can't be like "Okay, everyone turn in your keys."
You can't figure out who gave their key away because they aren't giving their key away at all, they're just generating a new one. Its literally impossible to figure out who is giving keys away, and the only recourse is to change the locks and not use keyless entry at all. An expensive and ultimately frustrating practice. Every single time I've seen keyless entry used broadly, the create key function gets abused by one of the members of the faction, and the leadership just goes back to issuing keys.

For this reason, it should be changed and the powers should be separated.

Currently, the only reason to EVER use it, is to give your lieutenants the ability to generate keys for your new recruits. The keyless entry aspect is useless with the powers combined.
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Nitro » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:31 pm

Well, that's what I meant. Instead of giving out keyless entry you just give out keys. Keys that allow entry without allowing the entree to create more keys. Savvy people will also rename keys so if one turns up in the possession of someone unexpected you know who leaked their key.

A keyless entry function that doesn't have the ability to create keys would literally just be like handing out a key but better as it has none of the security risks of an item that can be traded.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by The Kriv » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:37 pm

Nitro wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm
Getting a key off someone who has been given one is about the best way to gain entry to a place you're not supposed to. If we add a means for factions to let people in without giving them the ability to also generate keys, then why even bother having keys on the server?
because Keyless Entry is only for Faction Members. It is a quality of life mechanic. There isn't anything RP associated with it.

Keys still need to be generated for Non-Faction members, or low-ranking members.

The qulity of life improvement is that when you have many faction members sharing quarter access with other faction members.. even with keyrings, that really can get to be a lot of keys. And then when quarters change hands, or locks are changed... ALL the faction members need to get new/updated keys.. that's a big hassle for people across many time zones and play availability.

If Nitro, your preference would be to keep more physical keys in play for folk to steal them and gain access to quarters they ought not have access to... then we should do away with keyless entry and instead have a different mechanic of "copying" in some sort of crafting-way should be implemented... so that keys can be secretly copied... or stolen keys can be secretly copied.

...maybe associate "copy-key" with feat restriction - for example, the feat: skill focus: "pick lock" enables you to duplicate existing keys a key would be the way to go.... "strength of Locks" that you apply to your quarter are transferred to the DC of the duplication of that key (making it even more reason to have high lock strength!) -a great IG / IC mechanic for IC / IG reasons.


The request to make the keyless entry and create key separate as part of the OOC quality of life improvement enables you to keep faction member access to quarters current (which is a huge OOC benefit to players!) without granting the IC nefarious deed of one faction-member creating unlimited keys to hand out on the first day they join the faction.

Personally, I LOVE to be able to grant Keyless Entry to everyone in my faction, so they don't have to worry about juggling extra keys (quality of life improvement!!!) On the other hand, I would ALSO love to control who has keys and who doesn't... and who can CREATE keys and who can't.



I think the request to separate Keyless Entry and Create Key is fair. -make the spy who infiltrates the faction work harder to gain trust enough to be promoted to a rank that has Create-Key access enabled... then they can create/hand out keys to others... and it will truly be earned IC.
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:46 am

The Kriv wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:37 pm
Nitro wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:36 pm
Getting a key off someone who has been given one is about the best way to gain entry to a place you're not supposed to. If we add a means for factions to let people in without giving them the ability to also generate keys, then why even bother having keys on the server?
because Keyless Entry is only for Faction Members. It is a quality of life mechanic. There isn't anything RP associated with it.

Keys still need to be generated for Non-Faction members, or low-ranking members.

The qulity of life improvement is that when you have many faction members sharing quarter access with other faction members.. even with keyrings, that really can get to be a lot of keys. And then when quarters change hands, or locks are changed... ALL the faction members need to get new/updated keys.. that's a big hassle for people across many time zones and play availability.
This, basically; Try running a faction of 15 people or more, across several time zones, and it will take RL days to distribute keys to everyone that needs them, while daily function of the faction grinds to a near halt because people can't get into the faction guildhouse to communal or private storage. This is exascerbated further, because at the same time, the faction is trying to figure out who gave away a key, which slows down the process and ultimately leads to further RP 2% of the time.

So keyless entry becomes an OOC QoL mechanic, because you wouldn't ever give it to someone you don't trust implicitely OOC, because dealing with the fallout of someone generating keys and giving them away is a hassle that takes 30-50kgp, and a RL week.

As is, its a privilidge you ONLY give to 4-5 people you trust OOC not to cheese and give away keys as soon as the locks are changed. There is no IC RP component; the mechanic as it is right now is so abusable its insane to ever use for IC reasons, and is only ever used for OOC ones.
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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:35 am

I agree. Either keyless entry needs to be removed (I dunno why they would do this -- you cannot pickpocket keys or key-rings), or keyless entry needs to be separated.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Penwize » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:00 am

Yes to the power of please!

I'm a faction leader and I have wished for this since the first time I laid eyes on the faction powers list months ago.

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Re: Keyless Entry Discussion

Post by Anatida » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:21 pm

YES please separate them!

As a paranoid control freak my PC never uses keyless entry for the very fact that she then has zero control over who gets access (since anyone with keyless entry can then generate keys).

On more than one occasion it has taken me RL WEEKS to distribute new keys to players, even when i played for hours a day, everyday.

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