Writ level restrictions

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Lady Astray
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Lady Astray » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:44 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:15 pm
The fact that some low level dungeons vomit money is not strictly relevant to this discussion. It is a problem though... Just one that is parallel to the issue discussed here.

(but seriously, deep giant dolgom)
Just thought I'd point out why people see us epics in low level dungeons. People seem to be under the delusion we do it to power level our buddies, but if I wanted to power level someone I'd take them to a high level dungeon that gives more XP. So the writ system isn't stopping epics from going to low level areas. Nor is it stopping anyone from getting power leveled. All you have to do is follow some level 30 wizard around RDI if you want power leveled. I also don't see why someone reaching level 30 faster than usual is a problem that needs addressed. It makes sense IC that a knight's squire who goes around watching him/her slay dragons is going to learn more than someone cleaning the rats out of the basement of Skal. But when the person killing rats finds mithril dust every few days, and the dragon slaying knight is finding zinc, that's a problem. Maybe that is another discussion that deserves its own thread but my point is the writ system has almost nothing to do with what dungeons epic level characters frequent.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:12 pm

The fewer reasons for having overlevelled characters in low levelled dungeons the better.

You speak as if the people you are addressing have no experience of playing an epic level character, or as if doing so is something unusual. It is not unusual, and the vast and overwhelming majority of players here have levelled and deleted multiple level 30 characters. They know and understand what playing an epic level character is like and why certain behaviours might be exhibited...

This is not an "anti-epic" position. The specific level is unimportant. The issue is overlevelled characters in lower level dungeons... Be that a level 30 churning through a dungeon on behalf of a lvl 19 character... Or a lvl 10 doing so for a lvl 3. The effect is still the same.

Any and all reasons for overlevelled characters being in dungeons of significantly lower level should be removed, so that content can be suitably balanced for its intended level, and present the intended intensity of challenge to those attempting it.

Gold/loot/materials rewards should be increased in higher lvl dungeons to make them competitive according to the risk, and higher level characters should be unable to assist in doing writs.

Signed, one of "us epics".
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Lady Astray » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:54 pm

Sorry if my explanation came across as condescending, but I do hate being called a dingleberry just because I go where the loot is. If I want to make an adamantium helmet it is way easier to farm a low level dungeon 5 times and just buy the ingot than it is to hit an epic dungeon 10 times over the course of a month and maybe find one adamantium chunk which I then have to nearly fight the rest of the party for. I pretty much agree with everything you say though. Nothing is really wrong with the writ system, it's the loot tables that need looked at in my opinion.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Vrass » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:16 am

And then how are builds not capable of handling epic lv dungeons going to make money and collect resources? Not everyone is an unstoppable power build with godlike powers, close to 1000 hp, and rocking ac so high not even the epic mobs can touch them more then once every 5 minutes. Some of us don't have that kind of power but as usual nobody cares.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Halibutthead » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:45 am

hyperbole isn't going to strengthen your argument

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:48 am

Vrass wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:16 am
Some of us don't have that kind of power but as usual nobody cares.
I am going to take your post literally. I am aware that it is probably not the intended response.

Nobody has that kind of power. Your numbers are a long way out. Getting a more realistic view of what can be expected of a build may well be necessary.

The last statement you made, however, is accurate. No designer of a game needs to cater for those who insist the game should be radically different to suit their wishes.
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by lakhena » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:28 pm

I would like to see some sort of adjustment that takes into account the level difference of the PCs, rather than a precise level cut off. By this, I mean, a lvl 9 and lvl 14 should still be able to group and complete a writ that is currently for max lvl 10. The lvl 14 PC might not get any gold or XP (aside from diminished kill XP) for the writ, but they could legitimately help with the objectives.

As it stands, it feels like you have a very narrow group of people that you can adventure, explore, and RP with, if you want to consistently do any writs. I don't do a ton of writs, but when I try, I haven't had a lot of luck finding people to group with for adventuring that are in the same writ level band -- which unfortunately has meant that oftentimes, the people I'm RPing with decline to go on any writs with me and I end up with the choice of going solo or not doing the writ. I usually choose to abandon the writ or have writs that I hold onto for a long time or simply never complete in time.

I've found plenty of people to RP with, which has been fantastic, but they're either epic or JUST slightly out of the narrow level range. For those slightly out of the level range, it does feel artificial for them to keep saying "I'm an undead hunter or a Malarite slayer but I can't help you with X hunt."

Just my two cents.
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by JubJub » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:03 am

Well one change needs to be writs and grind areas need to be separate. its becoming sadly common in places like the UD ruins, ice roads, orclands (where there still is a grinding loop for epics) to find people grinding there who threaten to kill you if you don't leave the area. It's easier for epics to grind there then go to places like Duergars. Really makes finishing writs hard when epis are grinding. There should at least be a look at removing writs for locations where epics still get good xp. I mean a lvl 20 writ means max lvl 22 can help yet will still give good xp for lvl 26 and 27's.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:24 am

Lady Astray wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:51 pm

So yeah, if you're wondering why you keep finding us "epic dingleberries" in your low level dungeons, it's because we make twice as much gold, the same amount of XP, and often find better ores and magic items for 1/10th the risk and financial investment. Maybe I'm running the wrong dungeons or maybe it's my fault for playing a fighter instead of a wizard. But based on my observations running these dungeons many, many times the rewards for higher level dungeons are consistently lower. More risk should mean more reward. I'll happily start farming level 20+ dungeons when I can make enough gold doing so to pay for the 50 healing kits I use and still turn a decent profit. I'm not even asking that much, just a bit more gold and the occasional mithril or arjale vein would go a long ways. As it is now the level 10-16 dungeons in Skal have way better ore than most of the level 20+ ones on Arelith.
This is 110% a result of the devs, only a year ago, deciding to slash the gold drop value of high epic dungeons, and the random ore node system that results in people finding Zinc next to dragons and in the lowerdark. They bulldozed the profit from high epic dungeons, because epics were making too much gold.

The thing is, all that has done is push the high epics into a lower tier of dungeons to make the same money because guess what?...

It is very difficult to turn a profit doing high epic content if you are in anything less than perfect party composition.

You can make a mere 20-30k going through the entire titan's ascent, with a party of 6, probably find some arjale too in the boss room. But if you split 20-30k with 6 people, everyone is only making like 5k, maybe a little more. An epic can solo a lvl 10 dungeon effortlessly and make more, especially if its a harder high epic dungeon, because you're dealing with the use of UMD items on top of kits, just to survive.

After a certain point, you stop even looking at the gold, and high epic dungeons are simply a hope for runic reagents or the occasional lucky adamantine or mithril node. You do a high epic dungeon at a loss, then you grind a lowbie dungeon to make up that loss, so you can then run the high epic dungeon again.

End game content has become a luxury financed by grinding lowbie zones.

I'll say that again for the people in the back.

End game content has become a luxury financed by grinding lowbie zones.

So consider that, when you complain about epics in the higher writ zones. The blame lies squarely on the devs here.
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Lady Astray » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:24 am
End game content has become a luxury financed by grinding lowbie zones.
This is 100% correct. Often I do end-game content at a loss just to help someone else grind XP or spend time with friends. I really do it more just to be social than to make any kind of profit, because it is fun going out with friends and slaying a dragon. Problem is your friends rarely ever want to do that if all they get for their efforts is some zinc and a mundane magic item valued at a whopping 0 gold.
JubJub wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:03 am
Well one change needs to be writs and grind areas need to be separate. its becoming sadly common in places like the UD ruins, ice roads, orclands (where there still is a grinding loop for epics) to find people grinding there who threaten to kill you if you don't leave the area.
This has never happened to me, nor would I do that to anyone else. That sounds like something you might ought to report to the DM's. Whenever I'm farming or grinding and some lowbies come along trying to do a writ, I'm graceful enough to leave them alone and go somewhere else. I never intentionally try to bother or hinder other players. But there have been times where I was just walking along the road and some lowbie comes up behind me and immediately starts yelling at me in tells saying I'm too high of a level for that area because they seen me one-shotting some goblins. Or when I just finished cleaning out a dungeon, having just killed the final boss, and a party of low level characters show up and get mad that I accidentally messed up their writ.

My advice would be to never feel entitled to any particular area or dungeon just because you have a writ or you're in the "right level range" for that place. Just take a 10 minute walk somewhere else and then come back when everything has respawned. It's not the end of the world and certainly no reason to start sending angry tells to someone for playing a game.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Nitro » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:14 pm

Lady Astray wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm
My advice would be to never feel entitled to any particular area or dungeon just because you have a writ or you're in the "right level range" for that place. Just take a 10 minute walk somewhere else and then come back when everything has respawned. It's not the end of the world and certainly no reason to start sending angry tells to someone for playing a game.
I can understand why someone would get frustrated enough when it's the 3rd or 4th time that it's happened that day. I agree that the high level gold situation isn't great (except for undead dungeons because those scroll drop rates make mad cash) but it is incredibly frustrating when you just want to finish your writs but can't because high levels, not even necessarily the same one, keep swinging by to get their grind on instead.

Which, to stick on topic, is why I'm against removing writ level restrictions, because it would be yet another reasons for high levels to loiter in dungeons well below their challenge level.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Fionn » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:12 pm

Lady Astray wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm
My advice would be to never feel entitled to any particular area or dungeon just because [snip]
While I understand the lowbie has little choice in the matter, I'd put the onus on the PC30 farming CR18-22 content to come back in 10. OTOH, the uber drops /won't/ come back in 10, so I can understand the instinct to 'Be Mean'. YMMV
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Lady Astray » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:33 pm

Fionn wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:12 pm
Lady Astray wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:06 pm
My advice would be to never feel entitled to any particular area or dungeon just because [snip]
While I understand the lowbie has little choice in the matter, I'd put the onus on the PC30 farming CR18-22 content to come back in 10. OTOH, the uber drops /won't/ come back in 10, so I can understand the instinct to 'Be Mean'. YMMV
Like I said earlier, if I show up to a lower level dungeon to farm and someone else is there, I leave and go somewhere else. I don't intentionally try to hinder any other players from completing their writs. But sometimes they show up after I've just finished and decide to throw a fit and resent me for it. You can't really say I'm the one being mean in that situation.

You're right about the epic dungeons though. Often you reach the end and the boss doesn't even spawn because someone was there X hours earlier. Or you do beat the boss and the chests are empty because someone was there X hours ago and the only ore that spawns is zinc. Give us a reason to do the higher level content and maybe more of us will form/join parties to do it.

It also doesn't make sense from an IC perspective that ancient dragons have less gold and magic items than orcs.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Fionn » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:42 pm

Lady Astray wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:33 pm
Like I said earlier, if I show up to a lower level dungeon to farm and someone else is there, I leave and go somewhere else. I don't intentionally try to hinder any other players from completing their writs. But sometimes they show up after I've just finished and decide to throw a fit and resent me for it. You can't really say I'm the one being mean in that situation.
Apologies - my earlier wasn't meant as personal criticism, but commentary for the peanut gallery ;) *runs off to finish coffee*

Yea, throw a fit IC? Good luck with that. OOC? That too ;)
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Terenfel » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:48 pm

What about Epic Writs that did not give XP, but awarded gold for dungeon completion (or maybe some items. on par with what chest loot you could get there), so that you where not that dependent on being the first in a epic dungeon and get disappointed by terrible or no loot at all.

but still it would help get a idea of where to go, explore and group up like the low level writs have done, but for loot and treasure. not for xp and easy leveling.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Lady Astray » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:35 pm

Fionn wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:42 pm
Lady Astray wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:33 pm
Like I said earlier, if I show up to a lower level dungeon to farm and someone else is there, I leave and go somewhere else. I don't intentionally try to hinder any other players from completing their writs. But sometimes they show up after I've just finished and decide to throw a fit and resent me for it. You can't really say I'm the one being mean in that situation.
Apologies - my earlier wasn't meant as personal criticism, but commentary for the peanut gallery ;) *runs off to finish coffee*

Yea, throw a fit IC? Good luck with that. OOC? That too ;)
No worries. Just pointing out that the higher level players/characters are not always the aggressors in these situations.
Terenfel wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:48 pm
What about Epic Writs that did not give XP, but awarded gold for dungeon completion (or maybe some items. on par with what chest loot you could get there), so that you where not that dependent on being the first in a epic dungeon and get disappointed by terrible or no loot at all.

but still it would help get a idea of where to go, explore and group up like the low level writs have done, but for loot and treasure. not for xp and easy leveling.
I would be in favor of something like this if it gave players a good reason to form parties after level 20. As it is now even if good loot does spawn at the end of the dungeon, which rarely happens, whoever picks the lock or summons the fairy is gonna hog it all most of the time. We should all at least get some gold or decent crafting materials for our efforts and not have to rely on other players being generous.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Durvayas » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:17 pm

Terenfel wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:48 pm
What about Epic Writs that did not give XP, but awarded gold for dungeon completion (or maybe some items. on par with what chest loot you could get there), so that you where not that dependent on being the first in a epic dungeon and get disappointed by terrible or no loot at all.

but still it would help get a idea of where to go, explore and group up like the low level writs have done, but for loot and treasure. not for xp and easy leveling.
This isn't a bad idea. The difference between a decent dungeon and a waste of time is usually about 5000 in terms of profit. So writs for high epic dungeons that add 5-10k to someone's revenue wouldn't be a bad thing.

But thats not going to happen, because remember the devs slashed endame gold drops because high epics had too much gold.

Ideally, they could boost the value of leader heads from epic dungeons. That way Oblodra Drakaa, the fire giant princess, etc are worth more than 650gp.
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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Maladus » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:22 pm

Could probably manage the amount of income brought by epic level writs for gold only if they were limited to 1-3 per week as opposed to 3 per day.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Richørd » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:44 pm

About the idea of removing the level restrictions for low level writs : Yeah, I'm all for it. You get helped out by a high level person that does all the work for you? Well, then suck up that you won't get any of the grinding EXP.
Let's take one writ from Skal as an example. The goblin camp north of Skaljard, a lvl 4 writ I believe. That stuff can be really obnoxiously hard for some characters and basically requires a group. A big difficulty spike compared to other writs around that level, which is fine in itself. But the grinding EXP you'd get there is higher than the actual reward EXP for handing the finished writ in.
So I say let high-levels help lowbies out. If a lowbie just wants to be done with their writs for the IC-week and just earn the quick buck of "slaying" those goblins and accepts the help of a high level character? Then so be it, in exchange he is loosing all the potential EXP from the grinding.

About "Epic Level Writs" : I like the idea. But I'd like to see something else done with them.
First. Randomize them. Do not give the player a giant list of all the epic level content to choose from. Rather I think it should be a random piece of content each time. "We heard about something evil brewing on the Red Dragon Isles. Go and investigate!" That sort of stuff. Motivate people to go to less often visited content at times. Make them explore. (JUST FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, FIXX THE TRANSITIONS IN THE ABYSS FIRST BEFORE SENDING PEOPLE THERE!)
Second. Give people only one of these "Epic Level Writs" per IC week.
Third. Make those writs more rewarding. Maybe we could even fixx some of the "lul I got no loot in dungeon X" issues by simply handing each player one random high-tier ressource as a bonus. Not talking about perfekt Zhardazik and stuff. But something rewarding at least.

EDIT: This might in fact even fixx some of the issues of "muh epics" in lower level dungeons by motivating epic level characters to visit actual high level content more often.

EDIT2: Maybe epic writs could be introduced as a mechanic for the expedition leaders? I got tons of hours on Arelith but never seen or heard anyone ever do an expedition.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by magistrasa » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Y'all realize high level characters can help low levels with writs already yeah? You just can't be in the same party and can't make the killing blow - I.E., you can't just do the whole thing for them. People are already gaming the system. It doesn't need to be made easier to do so. And if it's allowed, it's just going to encourage that hand-holding powergrind behavior.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Richørd » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:02 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:45 pm
Y'all realize high level characters can help low levels with writs already yeah? You just can't be in the same party and can't make the killing blow - I.E., you can't just do the whole thing for them. People are already gaming the system. It doesn't need to be made easier to do so. And if it's allowed, it's just going to encourage that hand-holding powergrind behavior.
Sure, there is a workaround. But is it effective tho?

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Liareth » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:35 pm

This last month I've been leveling a new character for the first time since the writ system was introduced. I absolutely love it - I've been logging on, doing a little bit of RP, doing my three daily writs, doing some more RP, and gaining levels faster (in terms of XP/hour) than if I had spent the entire time circle grinding under the old system. The system is fantastic. Then I hit 21. :( I find myself feeling lost and unhappy with PvE progression post-20 - the writ system provides a context and purpose to dungeon grinds that was never there before. It's difficult to go back to playing without it. It's like hopping from a western MMO to an eastern one. IMO, writs should continue all the way to level 30. Also, writ gold needs to be nerfed pre-20 - I have almost 200k in the bank plus a house worth 100k just from leveling to 21 while doing nothing specifically to gather gold. (my duo partner also has 200k, so our combined wealth is nearly half a million). It seems like a solution to the "epics grinding lowbie dungeons for cash" problem would be to nerf gold income from writs and dungeons pre-epic and buff them in epic and adding epic writs. Unlike some others in this thread, I wouldn't want to see a large waiting period between epic writs. The pre-20 pace is good.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Wrips » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm

I think writs are fine as they are right now. They provide a nice leveling pace up to 20 and leave the hardcore grind to post 20. I'm also of the opinion that some grinding is necessary to enjoy the game completely so I'm not really keen to see epic writs be a thing. There are enough places (at last in Surface) where you can grind even a single hour a day and level relatively fast and with some security in the epics.

Regarding the max writ level, I think it wouldn't hurt to increase it one or two levels. Right now, if you are three levels above the writ max level, other people can't complete it. While, for balance purposes, it might work for low level dungeons, once I reached around level 17-20 I noticed there's a certain lack of players doing writs in that range, at last in my experience(curiously, a good portion of the people I've played together either created another character or stopped playing once they hit the level 16-17 wall), and the dungeons become harder as well. So, I don't think it's particularly unfair for a level 23 or even 24 to help someone complete a level 20 writ.

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Seekeepeek » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:35 pm

Liareth wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:35 pm
This last month I've been leveling a new character for the first time since the writ system was introduced. I absolutely love it - I've been logging on, doing a little bit of RP, doing my three daily writs, doing some more RP, and gaining levels faster (in terms of XP/hour) than if I had spent the entire time circle grinding under the old system. The system is fantastic. Then I hit 21. :( I find myself feeling lost and unhappy with PvE progression post-20 - the writ system provides a context and purpose to dungeon grinds that was never there before. It's difficult to go back to playing without it. It's like hopping from a western MMO to an eastern one. IMO, writs should continue all the way to level 30. Also, writ gold needs to be nerfed pre-20 - I have almost 200k in the bank plus a house worth 100k just from leveling to 21 while doing nothing specifically to gather gold. (my duo partner also has 200k, so our combined wealth is nearly half a million). It seems like a solution to the "epics grinding lowbie dungeons for cash" problem would be to nerf gold income from writs and dungeons pre-epic and buff them in epic and adding epic writs. Unlike some others in this thread, I wouldn't want to see a large waiting period between epic writs. The pre-20 pace is good.
I agree, I have found the contrast to big after lvl 21. It's like hitting a massive wall and i have found my self having more inactive lvl 21 then i'd like. :?

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Re: Writ level restrictions

Post by Xerah » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm

Exact same thing happened to me.

That said, I don't know if writs for EXP for 21+ are a great idea from a world design perspective. I think it's nice that things slow down so we don't make it too easy to get into high epics.

I could see gold only being a nice middle ground to deal with the lack of reward for epics going into dungeons.
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