Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

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Zed
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Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Zed » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 pm

Created a new thread as to not entirely Derail the other discussion located here

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22132


Wanted to discuss based off of a few comments made in that thread regarding changing the way the name system works in the first place to somthing immersive, albiet complex to an extent.

Based off of a few quotes
I would prefer if names were not visible at all and you had to name the people.

That is how it worked on Czech uo server.

Every unknown elf was just Elf for you.

You could pull his HP bar and type in name. You would never know his name unless you would learn it IC.

Disguise there worked to add various alternative egoes. How many everyone had was depending on bluff skill. It also forced people to use disguises smart and prevent them being ruined and known.

hat sounds amazing.

You could probably set up a system when the blue name change is a thing. And force introductions with a character by having them say a key phrase or phrases within proximity.


For example

Joe six pack meets Stan the man


Joe walks up to Stan and his name is labeled "Human"

This indicates to Joe that hes never met Stan

Says "hello [my name is joe]"

Replies [my name is stan]

Code cross references the character name with the introduction and then reveals that name to anyone within hearing range.

This would still allow people to have nicknames as I dont think the code should require a full name. It should allow partials of a name. So if Stan decided to say hey I am "the man" or "My nickname is "the man" it should be able to recognize that.


It would make for interesting assassin gameplay as well. Having to go off of description and having to wait for confirmation of a characters name before taking them down.











For context we were discussing how it would be interesting if people had to learn a name before walking up to them and knowing who they are.

For example if one person walks into a room of PCs instead of seeing "Kerri lightfoot" and "Joe montana" They would see over their heads "Half-elf" And "Slightly OK quarterback"


Then if they were to introduce themselves, or perhaps even just say part of their own name within a conversation, those within a distance, (My suggestion would be Speaking distance, or based off speaking volume) The name over the head would be unlocked. allowing your character to see the name over the head and knowing that persons name.


There are a few flaws in this. But It does open up things like Assassinations to be more immersive, Meta information to not get out as much (No more "INSERTS A DESCRIPTION OF JOE SIXPACK" in notes ) and force people to go off of clothing description if they have never met somone.

This could also tie directly into the disguise system. and if those who wish to have a nickname could have a system menu that could add their nickname in quotations in between their first and last names and add that to the introduction.


This would also help people who have memory issues, and those that have multiple alts who may have a hard time not accidentally knowing somone they dont know because they met them before on a different character.


So what do you guys/gals think?

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Kaeldre
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Kaeldre » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:27 pm

There are many points which I wish to bring forth on this note. I will try to be concise.
You could probably set up a system when the blue name change is a thing. And force introductions with a character by having them say a key phrase or phrases within proximity.
First and foremost, the idea of having 'key-phrases' trigger others to see your name-bar seems clunky to me. This would limit the amount of ways people can introduce themselves, which means that you'd be limiting RP. Not cool.
Then if they were to introduce themselves, or perhaps even just say part of their own name within a conversation, those within a distance, (My suggestion would be Speaking distance, or based off speaking volume) The name over the head would be unlocked. allowing your character to see the name over the head and knowing that persons name.
Secondly, the idea of having all characters within a certain distance register your name when spoken does not sound right to me. Just because you are within speaking distance of another does not imply that your character is listening to what someone else says.
I would prefer if names were not visible at all and you had to name the people.

That is how it worked on Czech uo server.

Every unknown elf was just Elf for you.

You could pull his HP bar and type in name. You would never know his name unless you would learn it IC.

Disguise there worked to add various alternative egoes. How many everyone had was depending on bluff skill. It also forced people to use disguises smart and prevent them being ruined and known.
Thirdly, the change that Flower proposed was that all characters are unknown to you. Instead of having some name unlocked, his suggestion was that each player were given the ability to label those around him/her/other. If given a name, you could choose to label them to that name. This would be the desirable change in my opinion.

However, there are a lot of issues with the change Flower proposed as well. There would be an abundance of technical aspects of the game that would be considered and remade. Scry, summoning and tells being a few. I will end my post with a quote by Marsi that more or less summarizes why I no longer support this change.
I've never found the idea of hardening disguise through obfuscation to be convincing. I think some innovations such as the genericized disguise portrait are effective because they make it easier to suspend OOC understanding of identity without robbing the player of their ability to determine who they are interacting with. It isn't necessary to actually fool the player, only the character. All that's required is to cloak the most immediate information so the player isn't confused or liable to slip-up. Problem players who metagame soon develop a reputation for dishonesty and its clear they would use any information available to cheat. The best policy is a harsh punishment for metagaming.

I'll put those thoughts aside and humour the idea for the sake of discussion. This is an all-or-nothing idea. Either everything is obfuscated, or, by the logic behind the idea, nothing is, and it is therefore incomplete. For it to work, when sending a tell to a player, their login handle would have to be aliased always to the character name, as it is when initiating a tell via the player list. Similarly, the portal would have to be stripped of usernames. Perhaps a player can be assigned a session ID every time they log in that is created from their account name and can be easily coupled by DMs in their logs. That way in order to report John Smith, who could be anyone, including an imposter, you'd see by prompting a tell that he has a unique ID and can supply the DMs with this information. The DMs would be able to tell the difference between the griefer John Smith and the John Smith who is played by a reputable member of the community. The only vector for metagaming then, is if both John Smiths are logged in at the same time and one was able to confirm the ID of the real John Smith before coming across the fake one.

It's clear though that this seriously hampers the ability of the players to OOC co-ordinate, which is an important and necessary part of roleplaying. Experienced roleplayers understand that there is more to effective storytelling than complete and utter immersion. A lot of what fuels good storytelling actually involves metagaming of a benign form. Perhaps on a more ideologically pure, experimental, "hardcore" server this design choice would make sense, but this has never really been the case on Arelith.
To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it.

Zed
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Zed » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:18 am

The main issues that people have with OOC meta aspects especially disguises are that big ole floating blue name.

Somone says hey go assassinate "Xduder" and they go and find the blue name called "Xduder"

Or if they wish to scry then they look at the blue name to do so.


Or what about when somone changes their clothing? Or has a helmet on? They are still recognized. Somone couls be wearing rags one day and a full suit of plate the next and you walk up to them as if it is not an issue to determine identity.

Halibutthead
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Halibutthead » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:27 pm

I giggled a little bit at the "name unlocking," ('bob? No, I've never heard of him. Crap!') But that isnt to say i dont like the idea. Kaeldra (Marsi, actually) makes a good point, though, even if i disagree about it being all-or-nothing.

The old system was pretty good and i had a lot of fun with it. Does anyone else remember when a dozen Samir Lyons invaded cordor? Sure, metagaming was common, but thats a problem with those players, not the system

Lunargent
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Lunargent » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:37 pm

Zed wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:18 am
The main issues that people have with OOC meta aspects especially disguises are that big ole floating blue name.

Somone says hey go assassinate "Xduder" and they go and find the blue name called "Xduder"

Or if they wish to scry then they look at the blue name to do so.


Or what about when somone changes their clothing? Or has a helmet on? They are still recognized. Somone couls be wearing rags one day and a full suit of plate the next and you walk up to them as if it is not an issue to determine identity.
Um.

This is why the disguise system exists in the first place, to mediate such disputes. If you have -disguise up, and someone roleplays recognizing you without breaking your disguise (provided that you have changed your disguise from when they have last seen you), report them. If you are not in -disguise, or the person has broken your -disguise, it is fair game to recognize you.

If you do not have ranks in bluff or perform, you are not good enough at disguising yourself to pass by unnoticed.

If you do not have a -disguise, the best way to avoid assassinations, scrying, and other such things is to never give out your real name. Go by a pseudonym or give out different names, and it's harder to track you down with magical/mechanical means.

Zed
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Zed » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:32 pm

Lunargent wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:37 pm
Zed wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:18 am
The main issues that people have with OOC meta aspects especially disguises are that big ole floating blue name.

Somone says hey go assassinate "Xduder" and they go and find the blue name called "Xduder"

Or if they wish to scry then they look at the blue name to do so.


Or what about when somone changes their clothing? Or has a helmet on? They are still recognized. Somone couls be wearing rags one day and a full suit of plate the next and you walk up to them as if it is not an issue to determine identity.
Um.

This is why the disguise system exists in the first place, to mediate such disputes. If you have -disguise up, and someone roleplays recognizing you without breaking your disguise (provided that you have changed your disguise from when they have last seen you), report them. If you are not in -disguise, or the person has broken your -disguise, it is fair game to recognize you.

If you do not have ranks in bluff or perform, you are not good enough at disguising yourself to pass by unnoticed.

If you do not have a -disguise, the best way to avoid assassinations, scrying, and other such things is to never give out your real name. Go by a pseudonym or give out different names, and it's harder to track you down with magical/mechanical means.
Except that the current system is impossible to enforce due to the fact that even /if/ a player recognizes that somone is disguised they can make a choice to either ignore the disguise entirely or come up,with some BS reason to be suspicious of that person even if they do not beat the disguise check.

I wont bring up specific occurances but I do know of playera who this had been done to on not one or two occassions but on multiple occassions and when reported those players had announced a flimsy excuse as to why they could break the disguise.

Beside that, this is not just purely about disguises. This is about general immersion and role play assistance.

A new player is not going to know Astra starlock from ameniel, they would just be "elves" to them.

Please think of this in a broader context than a currently broken disguise system

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Character Name System discussion (Based off of the Disguise system discussion)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:06 am

Zed wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:32 pm
Beside that, this is not just purely about disguises. This is about general immersion and role play assistance.

A new player is not going to know Astra starlock from ameniel, they would just be "elves" to them.

Please think of this in a broader context than a currently broken disguise system
I feel obligated to turn this example back on you, because I agree with the overall sentiment that good story-telling is about more than immersion- it's also about cooperating with your fellow players, even if that means stepping out of character to chat with them about what the two of you can do to get the most out of a mutual encounter and both come away satisfied (note- satisfied doesn't necessarily mean victorious).

In your immersion example, I feel it's fair to say that if you've ever met Astra or Ameniel, it takes about half a second to visually discern multiple discrepancies, and a more in-depth observation of about thirty seconds will permanently cement in your mind forever that they are not the same elf. Not knowing their name doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to tell them apart.

I would like to posit the suggestion that if someone was reported, and wasn't appropriately addressed (which I'm not sure how you would know since in my own experience it's generally not DM policy to go around announcing peoples' business- and it certainly wouldn't go well for the player who "got away with it" if they went around bragging about it), that perhaps their excuse might not have been so flimsy, and that we should think better of our fellow players.

My disguise rolls usually hold up - I'd say 9 out of 10 times... but I tend to find myself looking for clues to give other people that they can use at their discretion to "find me out." Sometimes I screw up and it's not intentional, but those moments especially tend to turn into something exhilarating.

But that might be easier for me, because I approach the situation specifically refusing to think the worst of the people I'm playing with - even if I'm presented with evidence they don't always deserve the benefit of the doubt. I've found that's the only real way to enjoy a collaborative story of this size, for me. YMMV.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

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