Overhauling the language system

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Halibutthead
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Overhauling the language system

Post by Halibutthead » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:32 pm

First: yes, this is the feedback thread, because before this gets put in the suggestion thread, feedback is desired.

Alright, heres the plan: remove languages being tied to int only, and instead tie them primarily to lore. The number of languages a character can learn is equal to their hard lore modifier / 10. I.e. 24 lore = two languages (not counting languages from race/class/starting location). Selecting a language to learn will be done with an NPC located at an appropriate location (mostly cordor, the arcane tower, and anandur, with some backup tutors in other places).

Next, we increase the speed of learning the languages by some factor (probably 100 or so, I'm not privvy to the exact learning rates, but right now its so slow its usually not worth the effort, imo, unless you're a wizard). Change phrasebooks to add 1% or so per IRL day (but not count days you dont log in, if thats undesired). High int characters should still learn faster, somehow.

Polyglot or whatever that is called will add 2 more languages to the max, and treat the character like they have 4 more int, as normal.

Grandfather any characters with more languages than lore.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, part of this is to remove the lore check to understanding languages because i have always thought that was a poor design choice. Let lore builds have more language options, not godmode spies

The goal is simple: make learning languages more easily accessible to non-wizards, while simultaneously preventing every wizard from learning nearly every language overnight. They'll still be the best at it, but not by such a wide margin, but it will open up polylinguals to non epic characters.

Now, for the butmuhs.

Butmuh skill dump in lore: yep. Skilldumps are a reality. My wizard became a master locksmith after killing a skeleton.

Butmuh drow cleric druid rogue: even in the current system, they have more languages. This doesnt affext them much.

Butmuh lore isnt high enough: chances are, youre not learning languages anyway.

Butmuh seekrit languages that everyone will know: yeah, unless you made it up yourself, its not a secret. I know ASL, and i dont even have any deaf friends or family.

Anyway, pick it apart. Tell me what you think. Please send all ad hominem to my inbox to keep the thread uncluttered, though

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flower
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by flower » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:02 pm

Tieing langueges to lore is not going to open it to more characters than wizards. It is doing the opposite to shut it down for them.

Most meele classes have basic 2+int mod skillpoints. They need discipline, heal, tumble, concentration, UMD. That is 130-140 skill points for basic assests you need.


If your build consists of meele builds with low skill point gain...27 levels of class with 2+INT skill points with 3 lvls dip will end up at around 150 skill points in totall unless a human with inteligence of 14.

Limited skill points:
blackguard
paladin
fighter
cleric
CoT
dwarven defender
weapon master
sorcerer
RDD
PM

And now you got also things like riding, seach, spot, spellcraft...from those above very few would actually put points into lore and if then only to identify for loot. To tie languages to lore would end up in shutting it for those. Not that they may learn many now (2-4 languages depanding on INt).

Halibutthead
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Halibutthead » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Well, in order to shut it down for them, it would have had to have been open to them in the first place, which right now, it isn't.

But you're right. These builds might have to put an extra few points into lore to get another language. Fortunately, they just need to reach 10 with ranks + int to get another language. Still nets positive, imo.

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Skibbles
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Skibbles » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:01 pm

There's already a thread going about languages, but this recommendation in particular is closer to removing languages entirely than anything.

Everyone will end up speaking common with a change like this because few classes have the luxury to invest hard lore points.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

Halibutthead
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Halibutthead » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:16 pm

See, this is why I'm glad i put this in feedback. Skibbles, you clearly have a very different point of view on this, and I'd like to know more.

In my experience, it takes an exhaustingly long time to learn a language as a non-int build. Literally: played a 14int weapon master with a friend. She spoke celestial to me every single play session, usually for an hour or more of playtime. This was prior to writs, back when levelling up actually took time and effort, and we got to level 16 or so, and they added the menu to check your progress. Still at beginner.

This was over 100 hours of roleplay, and it didnt seem to make much of a dent. Clearly, you have a different experience, so does it sound like my character was perhaps bugged in a way?

Another point of difference is that on the surface, i think I've encountered people speaking a language other than common a handful of times other than as gimmicks (a few weeks after the translator updated. Language clubs. Showing off. The occasional level 3 elf in cordor who inexplicitly cant speak common). I could be at a wrong playtime for that, though (prime time central US).

And as for the skill points, i disagree. 8-10 skill points isn't build breaking unless your build was already broken in my opinion. And given my personal experiences (again, i only have mine, thats why im here), i didnt think that those characters were going to be learning bonus languages anyway

Zed
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Zed » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:43 pm

My opinion on this is posted in the other thread, but I think that the Language DC should be raised above 60 or 70 lore in order to have Wizards understand more than anyone else languages they do not know, but also that they need to be purposefully build in order to do that sort of thing.

As well I think the learning rate should be increased by your lore, with the quickest learner having 100 Lore and learning a language in about 2 weeks.

Slowest learner should learn a language in about 6 months (Maybe 1 year game time) At 0 lore.

Base languages learned should be still effected by class, but Wizards should not be able to learn 8 or more bonus languages

I think that hard upper limit should be 3 bonus languages with 0 lore getting 1 bonus language should keep certain languages a mystery while allowing players the freedom to choose what they would like to get extra, and who they encounter.

The language learning process should be quick enough to were if one friend has one language (Elvish for instance) and a human player wanted to learn that language they could, and speak it with their friend.

Halibutthead
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Halibutthead » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:08 pm

Thats something, and i like that its moving in a direction that allows non-int builds to realistically be capable, but... does anyone have fun """""learning""""" a language after, oh, i dont know, the first fifteen minutes? My biggest gripe to the system (why i dont bother with it. Why most people ive asked dont bother with it) is that it takes sooo long. It gets unfun very fast to pretend to learn a language and be only able to make a bit of progress if my character spends time with """""""learning"""""""" it, but not in the 8-30 days that pass between play sessions (i like to think my character exists when im not online).

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Skibbles
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Skibbles » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:02 am

I have experience learning languages both as a 16 base INT character with little to no lore and a 30 base INT with high lore character.

Learning languages is a huge pain in the butt, and it required a high investment of time for both characters (relatively). I believe it took me a month or two to learn undercommon and xanalress for my 16 INT character, but since I have little experience on the surface I'm not sure its as easy as simply standing in the hub and learning the local languages by osmosis. Though that's not to say I didn't put in significant time paying other characters for their time to have language lessons.

The lessons themselves can be annoying, but I found them often fun if there was a topic to speak about, or something to plot.

My currently played wizard knows nearly every language in the game save for a select few, and learning them all has taken me several real life years (though I've taken extended breaks now and then) because simply there are few sources for some languages. Knowing many languages is a point of RP for her, and I contend that it would be neither rewarding nor interesting to be hobbled by any of the proposed changes here. After all, pursuing knowledge in the form of languages is RP in and of itself.

Could lore tie into the rate of learning? I think an argument can be made for this! Should hard skill points in lore limit a character's learned language limit? I very much think not - I can already imagine a great many scenarios and extensive RP I wouldn't have been able to enjoy, particularly on my 16 INT cleric if this had been the rule all along.

As to the mention of character classes being broken if there aren't enough skillpoints for a lore dump - I disagree, and cite the essential cookie cutter thread as evidence, because many of the most often played optimal classes have little to no points left over to invest in something like lore, much less some other high-demand skills aside that can also have a dramatic effect on a character's direction and RP.

Ultimately I think languages are hard to learn as it is, but it would be a lie to say it also isn't similarly greatly rewarding to finally become fluent after hard work and extensive roleplay. Finally, because of the rune crafting system, you'll want to be aware that a hard nerf to max languages known could make some items either impossible to enchant or exceedingly rare to find someone who can.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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flower
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by flower » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:18 am

People with INT score 11+ are above avarage in lore, and no idiots unable to learn languages.

And lore just costs you additional skill points. Which then lack for survival skills for both, pve and pvp.


Give it bonuses for high int and lore (as is now anyway, easier to pass check), but to restrict other people by not having either of it?


To be honest the cap on number of languages should go away fully. If character is around four years i cannot see a reason it could not learn all languages. The high int izard will learn them all anyway and faster, while avarage int character would take ages without lore to learn it, so if dedicates time, why not.

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Ebonstar
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Ebonstar » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:20 am

anyone can be conversational in any language in 30 days time with full immersion to it, save those who have a disability, and even then will still be able to learn the basics.

IC any character with a normal int score can learn the same way by the constant immersion and a book. Doesnt matter your class, it will happen yes by osmosis, but because the brain naturally creates patterns and recognition.

leave something that isnt broken alone
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Hazard
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Re: Overhauling the language system

Post by Hazard » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:48 am

I think the language system is fine how it is. Could be improved or tweaked of course, but it's fine. I've always enjoyed it. The gibberish is the worst, least organic part of it.

Wizards have an advantage with skills and languages because of their int. It's by design. They're wizards. Learning is what they do. They are smart. They're wizards!

If anything I'd make learning languages slower, and maybe remove the lore translation thing so you just don't understand stuff unless you're actively studying it.

Maybe we can have a spell (potions, wands, scrolls) be altered to have a secondary affect that allows you to understand languages temporarily, or have a chance to.

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