Druid endgame feedback

[Jagel]

I really like what's been done with the elemental shapes and several of the spell reworks, spell foci tweaks etc. It leaves druids in a much more interesting place than the bland monk/druid thing no-brainer we had going not long ago.

I have a minor gripe with the elemental rework: the power of elemental shapes seem to be modest power spikes until increasing exponentially in late epics. When you first acquire the feat the shape is quite mediocre and usable 1/day. This increases to 3/day at lvl 19, but at this point the shapes are almost useless when dealing with lvl appropriate content. At 20 things start to happen with the elder shapes but they fall off a bit as epic lvls . At lvl 26 there's another power spike as now you can jump in and out of elemental shape, cast spells, tend to summons etc. freely. And then at 28 you hit the jackpot. So it goes from semi-ok shapes a few times per day to bery powerful shapes infinitely at 28. The power gap between the three iterations of elementals could perhaps be lowered a bit as they have really limited uses per day.

With the power of the monoliths and the synergy with EDR III we are closing in on another no-brainer. There is little reason to multiclass, there is little reason to take the totem bond, there is little reason to pump wisdom and focus on the casting aspects of druids. The pinnacle of end-game power lies in a pure drood with EDR III, conjuration focus and either evocation (for GR and HB which can be cast while in elemental shape) or transmutation (for aura of vitality glory to all of the elementals, summons and dominated friends). Totem bonds point towards multiclassing to expand on the theme of the creatures IMO but multiclassing (full bab classes for bear, wolf, sneaky classes for panther, wolf, rat etc.) is simply a horrible idea atm.

The dragon shape rework is tied to this. It's an epic feat, it has three uses per day and it's been (rightfully) toned down a bit from its vanilla version. With EDR III and the evocation spells having greater synergy with monoliths and monoliths being sooo much more powerful than the dragons (and they are usable infinite times per day unlike DS), Dragon Shape has become a really subpar choice. For druids who multiclass it's still mostly a novelty feat, useful in certain instances but with too limited uses/day to make up for it's underwhelming strength as an end-game epic feat.

I'd propose tweaking the design of DS so it becomes a valid supplement to monoliths OR caters to multiclassing druids.

Possibilities to flesh out the shapes a bit:
- Give DS combat feats like imp. disarm, expertise, power attack, imp. kd., called shot etc.
- Fiiiiix the breath DCs / dmg. The breath weapons are useles atm. Would give DS a different role in combat than elementals.
- A lesser fear aura of sorts. Would give some mild CC potential.

Possibilities to make them end-game feat for multiclassed druids:
- Let the dragon shapes synergize a bit with multiclassed feats or skills. The green dragon provides extra hide/ms and sneak attack atm. This is useless on a pure druid but with rogue/ranger levels or similar it actually provides a powerful shape that can deliver surpise attacks - especially when combined with vine mine's HiPS. The red dragon could have a similar bonus to discipline and a mass cc like wing buffet or some such or a minor DR/DI (5/- DR or 5% DI), brass dragon could have a bonus to taunt.

Finally you could give DS a power spike at lvl 28 like monoliths. This could be locked behind a wisdom req (28, 30 or something) to make it a choice between DS upgrade and EDR III or make the druid choose between monolith shapes and the improved dragon shapes. This would not solve the multiclass issue though, just make the EDR/monolith less of a no-brainer.

[Brahtius]

Uh if anything druids need to be nerfed. Not made even more powerful.

[Hazard]

Uh if anything druids need to be nerfed. Not made even more powerful.

When it comes to PvE, I strongly agree, but I also agree with the idea of making DS a better choice.

What if DS were given back some damage reduction. No more than EDR feats combined would give you, but it does NOT STACK with the feats. That way Pure EDR Shaper Druids will not be buffed by the change so much, but it will make the dragon shape more useful for pure druids who did not invest heavily into con and EDRIII builds. Maybe tweak other stats a little if this is OP. I think DR is thematic for dragons and would prefer it over other stats.

Giving all the elemental shapes back their dmg reduction (again no stacking with feats) and lowering the stats could be an appropriate 'nerf' to druids, I think. The content they're able to mindlessly grind is GROUP content, but their high stats allow for it. The DMG reduction would make them very survivable in groups, but the amount of hits they take, I think would make them reconsider soloing the toughest group-dungeons in the game. It would also make the lower level elemental forms much more useful, which I feel is a good thing. Also think this is thematic, as elementals tend to have this and all others do in-game.

To reiterate, because I just woke up and am groggy, I think this would nerf their end-game capabilities (which totally needs to be done) but buff their early/mid-game capabilities, which is where I think they're really lacking (as far as elemental forms go).

And as always, I still suggest we give dragonshape back true seeing to simulate blindsense. Because dragons. If anything should be a counter to stealthers it should be a heckin' dragon, their size is still preventing them from chasing you down as always, and this has always been their biggest weakness and balancing factor. I think that's an appropriate exception to our new rule of 'no true seeing' on things. NPCs have it. All the other forms of dragon have it.

Think all these changes would make everything feel more 'correct' and immersive, while nerfing where they're OP and buffing where they're lacking. Maybe I'm the only one who is bothered! It's always bothered me! Italwayswill.

EDIT: Also. Let them read tracks! It's so weird that they can't. Reading tracks isn't that difficult for a person to learn, and these are amazing nature folk.

[Jagel]

Uh if anything druids need to be nerfed. Not made even more powerful.

This is the feedback section and we’re just spitballing so feel free to bring in ideas about what needs toning down.

My concern is:
- the relative power between the endgame feats
- the lack of viable build diversity

[Nobs]

If a druid needs any buffs its on animal shapes , i would love to see them be ok in the epics so that we may so some druids that dont walk around like giant fire elementals or dragons.

[Ebonstar]

Uh if anything druids need to be nerfed. Not made even more powerful.

Druids do not need nerfing, they simply need more diversity

More variety of animal shapes and possible totems

Cheetah, Owl, both come to mind off the top of the head would change up end game and throughout the entire life of the characters as well.

Cheetah for example, would be the High Dex short burst blinding speed hit you monk like fast to take down prey style nearly impossible to hit because of the speed and reflexes

Owl is your silent HiPS style with the crushing beak and wicked claws silent death from above sort

[Jagel]

I always thought that the totems were a lovely thematic addition to the druid class but for the different bonds to actually feel different you more or less have to multiclass in order to to flesh out the differences. After all, you can't effectively sneak as a panther without taking a couple of levels in a class that has hide/ms as class skills or investing heavily in cross classing both skills and end up being mediocre (at best), your bear is not really much of a brawny creature without access to discipline etc.

At this point I'd think that what you're suggesting, Ebon, would require a rework of the existing totems too as the existing bonuses would feel rather bland compared to, say, gaining HiPS (and the stealth skills to use it effectively..?).

[Hazard]

What if the totem bonuses scaled with druid level? So that a high level panther druid would actually have very good hide/ms comparable to a rogue with gear (if skills are invested CC). Maybe some sneak attack while in kitty form?

I'm sure the other forms could have neat things too.

[Jagel]

That’s actually a neat idea.

Could be +2 to one or two relevant skills as soft bonus per totem ‘tick’ for +22 at lvl 26. Would still require some investment to really shine. Or +1 per class lvl but only applicable while shapechanged.

[Hazard]

Non-totem druids could also be given some versatility by making animal shapes actually useful rather than just an RP toy.

IIRC There is wolf, badger, bear, boar, panther and they're all useless. If each had their own useful scaling ability we might see them actually used outside of just being RP toys.

Either that, or if it will stay an RP toy we could expand it to include as many animals as possible.

[Ebonstar]

What if the totem bonuses scaled with druid level? So that a high level panther druid would actually have very good hide/ms comparable to a rogue with gear (if skills are invested CC). Maybe some sneak attack while in kitty form?

I'm sure the other forms could have neat things too.

Agreed, its the form that gets the bonuses and feats, not when in natural elf hin whatever state.

I played a druid a long time ago on a hak server that had cheetah and advanced animal forms, ( dragonshape was still only a spell there) my wild elf druid could use small black cat that had HiPS when creeping about town, and cheetah for permhaste but they also adapted any weapon enhancements.

For example my druid carried a staff that had lighting damage on the staff 1d8. When he shifted the cheetah was now permahasted and his claws and bite attacks also did 1d8 lightning damage in a fight and it was very cool to have everything merge when shifted.

when in elf form though he was just an elf druid with a staff, no haste or anything abnormal, he became the cat to access the cats powers and skills

When there was a castle on a cliff He would shift to the bird and fly up to the ridge, that if you didnt would take 30 minutes to take the long path to slowly climb the cliffside.

This also gave a nice attack from above in enemies came in range below he could fly down and attack with a sneak attack for the first flurry which was also cool

[Hazard]

What if the totem bonuses scaled with druid level? So that a high level panther druid would actually have very good hide/ms comparable to a rogue with gear (if skills are invested CC). Maybe some sneak attack while in kitty form?

I'm sure the other forms could have neat things too.

Agreed, its the form that gets the bonuses and feats, not when in natural elf hin whatever state.

I played a druid a long time ago on a hak server that had cheetah and advanced animal forms, ( dragonshape was still only a spell there) my wild elf druid could use small black cat that had HiPS when creeping about town, and cheetah for permhaste but they also adapted any weapon enhancements.

For example my druid carried a staff that had lighting damage on the staff 1d8. When he shifted the cheetah was now permahasted and his claws and bite attacks also did 1d8 lightning damage in a fight and it was very cool to have everything merge when shifted.

when in elf form though he was just an elf druid with a staff, no haste or anything abnormal, he became the cat to access the cats powers and skills

When there was a castle on a cliff He would shift to the bird and fly up to the ridge, that if you didnt would take 30 minutes to take the long path to slowly climb the cliffside.

This also gave a nice attack from above in enemies came in range below he could fly down and attack with a sneak attack for the first flurry which was also cool

Being a little kitty sounds fun :3 I'd love that

[Ebonstar]

it was, if they could see you since HiPS was on as soon as you shifted, it made for alot of petting and catnip rp, when he wasnt sneaking though windows to unlock doors from the inside ( all with dm watching of course)

[Hazard]

it was, if they could see you since HiPS was on as soon as you shifted, it made for alot of petting and catnip rp, when he wasnt sneaking though windows to unlock doors from the inside ( all with dm watching of course)

. . . .

Devs can we have a kitten form, please?

[Ebonstar]

it was, if they could see you since HiPS was on as soon as you shifted, it made for alot of petting and catnip rp, when he wasnt sneaking though windows to unlock doors from the inside ( all with dm watching of course)

. . . .

Devs can we have a kitten form, please?

I still have the haks in a folder i should just send them to the devs and let them pick through to see if they like anything

[Jagel]

Cute animals have been turned down in the past

[Ebonstar]

ah but cute animals with a purpose

[Hazard]

Cute animals have been turned down in the past

Let me dream!