Assassinations

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boggle99
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Assassinations

Post by boggle99 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:33 am

I want to start by saying this isn't a thread about the class, changes to it, or weather it is good or bad in its current state. This is about the contracts and possible ways to make more RP from them. Reading the brilliant idea about a IG month before buying them off can happen made me think of other ways they could be used.

Currently the only real reason to put a assassination out on someone is to scare them, make them pay it off, or remove them as a elected official. Theses are the only things a guild contract than can do that just killing them yourself or getting any random PC you know to kill them can't do. This leads to few decent contracts in my experience, often some small amount that is easily paid off as it has little actually in game riding on it.

So I was thinking about other affects being assassinated could have that would mean people would place more hits, and how to make the hits more attractive to the assassins to accept, as often a cheap hit of 50k or so on a lvl 30 will consume more gold than it pays, especially if you want to be inclusive in your RP, bribing people for information and such. So I thought of other services the guild could offer if the target is assassinated successfully, but these could be tied to placing a higher bounty on the target. E.g. under a 100k we just kill them, for over 300k if they are a elected official we will also place all the necessary bribes and such for the death to trigger a election.

Here are a few things I though of as possible extra things that could happen if the bounty is high enough, these aren't a everything or nothing list and I ask people to pick them apart as to why they wouldn't work or would be abused easily as well as offering suggestions of their own.

If a settlement leader is assassinated then as well as triggering a election it triggers the bidding process for any castles that settlement holds. Creating more RP through the sudden scramble to claim it while also trying to work out who it was who is trying to seize it from you.

Mercantile Competition, if someone is successfully assassinated their shop goes up for sale after 1 real days grace for them to clear it, or it wont let anything be bought from it for a real day. This could lead to mercantile guilds waging a secret bloody war to get the best shops. Also if it is the days grace thing then the owner could decide to sell it while they still could to someone else in the faction, so if you want your bosses shop then you could actually place the contract.

House warfare/guild warfare. Like above but with quarters, either the sale after a days grace or if that is too harsh then the locks don't work for a day (though if a guild house then maybe the internal quarter locks should still work if they are owned by someone else?). So if, for example, you want to look at what the guard has on you then you need to put a large hit on the commander so you can get in there. Or like with the shops if you are a second who wants to take over the guild place the contract then convince them to sell the house to you to stop your rivals getting it or to make the locks work again. Making more RP and possibly inter house/guild civil wars.

Slaves. Someone has a slave you want, or someone has taken your friend as a slave? Then a appropriately large guild contract will mean that everyone they own will revert to the slave master upon their death and then you can guy buy them for yourself to keep/free. In the former case it raises interesting RP in how the slave adapts to this sudden new master and in the latter its a mad dash rush after you know the target is dead to get to the person you want to free before someone else snaps them up.

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Durvayas
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Re: Assassinations

Post by Durvayas » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:31 pm

boggle99 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:33 am
Mercantile Competition, if someone is successfully assassinated their shop goes up for sale after 1 real days grace for them to clear it, or it wont let anything be bought from it for a real day. This could lead to mercantile guilds waging a secret bloody war to get the best shops. Also if it is the days grace thing then the owner could decide to sell it while they still could to someone else in the faction, so if you want your bosses shop then you could actually place the contract.

House warfare/guild warfare. Like above but with quarters, either the sale after a days grace or if that is too harsh then the locks don't work for a day (though if a guild house then maybe the internal quarter locks should still work if they are owned by someone else?). So if, for example, you want to look at what the guard has on you then you need to put a large hit on the commander so you can get in there. Or like with the shops if you are a second who wants to take over the guild place the contract then convince them to sell the house to you to stop your rivals getting it or to make the locks work again. Making more RP and possibly inter house/guild civil wars.
As someone playing an assassin, I would actively stop taking contracts period if these changes went in.

Shops are notoriously hard to get, and it would be wrong to put in an implement that lets someone assassinate that low level shopkeeper and sieze the shop. Likewise for your 'trade war' you're just encouraging PvP day after day after day to keep a shop unprofitable. It would easily become mechanically incentivized griefing to force lower level people to give up their shops.

For quarters and guildhouses... just no.

If the locks don't work or the building goes up for sale, that guildhouse will be completely looted inside of four hours, tops. Such a system would only reinforce the narrative that RP only begins at lvl 30 for anyone trying to lead a faction, and would fly in the face of the 'levels don't matter' narrative that the staff have been trying to encourage. It would be insanity to own a building, or a faction for that matter, below that level if your suggestions went in.
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Hazard
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Re: Assassinations

Post by Hazard » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:39 pm

Sorry, but I don't see any of this working on Arelith!

I'm a huge fan of hardcore, full PvP/full loot kind of games, and there have even been some servers like that in the distant past of NWN. A lot of fun!

But Arelith is not that.

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Re: Assassinations

Post by dominantdrowess » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:05 pm

Yeah, I'm not a fan of these changes.

Zed
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Re: Assassinations

Post by Zed » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:12 pm

Assassins need something to fix them, But i would say this isnt it. I havent played an Assassin enough to know what it is, but one thing I could say is that players should not be able to see that they have a contract on them at all untill an assassin gets close enough to them.


the ability to pre-emptively pay off a bounty makes assassinations worthless IMHO

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Re: Assassinations

Post by JubJub » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:52 pm

Maybe something like assassins of the guild still get a cut if someone pays off their bounty. A bounty of 500,000, the person needs to pay 550,000 to pay it off, the extra gets spread out to guild members. That way members still benefit if people just pay off bounties.

But losing property because you are assassinated would be one huge headache and insta death for low lvls owning property.

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Re: Assassinations

Post by CosmicOrderV » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:57 pm

The spirit of this is in the right place, at least. It would definitely be nice to see assassinations carry more consequence. However, I'm not sure this is the right way to do it.
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boggle99
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Re: Assassinations

Post by boggle99 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:40 am

Ok, so clearly the shop and quarter stuff is open to too much abuse, even if it cost a bounty of like a million to do it and the grace period before it came into effect was extended to 2 RL days or something. I also didn't think of the limiting RP till 30 point and it is a good one. Is there any other way that mercantile motives for placing a contract on some one could be created?

As for the longer time till buying off a contract Irongron has already put that into the approved but not implemented bit of the suggestions sub forum. Are there any of the suggestions that appeal as a way to promote RP and encourage more and higher paying contracts? Is the idea of the higher the contract the more its completion does a interesting one?

I disagree with the argument that it would be used for griefing as assassin isn't a class anyone can take as it needs DM approval, so if it was going to be used for that then surely it already would be. The point of constantly placing a contract someone is valid though, so maybe a cool down could be added of 2 RL weeks after the contract has been completed before another one can even be placed?
JubJub wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:52 pm
Maybe something like assassins of the guild still get a cut if someone pays off their bounty. A bounty of 500,000, the person needs to pay 550,000 to pay it off, the extra gets spread out to guild members. That way members still benefit if people just pay off bounties.

The problem I have with this is it generates no RP, just gold randomly appearing without the assassin PC doing anything. But keep the ideas coming.


Do you guys have any ideas as to other options/effects that could work?

Another possibility could be to remove someones ability to vote in the next election if they are assassinated? So that rival politicians could try and thin each others support base.

Edit: Thinking about ways to encourage RP below 30, maybe the writ system could be used? Make it so that instead of just the list of names and prices if you want to accept the contract you get a writ with their name on. This could be tied to level so that only a assassin in the level range of the target could accept it? This could also inform you if the contract is paid off/completed by someone else, reducing the chance of thinking you are covered by the assassin version of the PvP rule when there is no longer a contract so you aren't.

Also a writ like system could encourage the finding out bit of the assassin RP, (my favourite part), if say you can only accept one contract at a time and abandoning the contract or getting killed in PvP while you have a contract accepted means you can't accept a new one for a RL day like the writs. Thus encouraging assassin PC's to find out what they can about a potential target before they accept the contract. This could also lead to lower level assassins offering their services as investigators, using the name list as a guide to find out anything they can about the target then selling the info to the higher level ones who can choose to accept the contract.

p.s. This isn't all or nothing, even the component parts of the various ideas, I honestly want feedback on what is and isn't a good idea and hear what ideas others have, so that if it does reach the point where it could be added to the suggestions forum then it has already been worked over, improved, and had the bad bits taken out.

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Re: Assassinations

Post by Durvayas » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:25 am

At this juncture, part of the problem is the bounties themselves, or was, until the change that went in so that they stack. Now that bounties stack, its not the fact that bounties are low that is the issue, so much as that the people placing them don't really want the PC dead enough to put a substancial price on them. If someone is suitably unpopular, they'll have a lot of people putting money on their head and they will die. its that simple.

The real thing hurting assassin RP is that there is almost no reason to use the assassin's guild.
  • The merchant there is utterly trash (he sells traps, and a six varieties of potion, but he only has ONE of each in stock. He does not sell poison.)
  • There is no banker nearby, so unless you are going to make the trek to the guild with money on hand, you can't buy anything.
  • There are three very small(1x1) round quarters (perpetually empty, only reason to use the guildhouse at all).
  • There is a one-way source portal.(The hub is more convenient)
The guild occasionally gets use as a safehouse(ironically), but its so far out of the way it doesn't get much use otherwise. There's no reason to. The portal is one way, so while its great to deploy to, there's no reason to go. The shopkeeper is a long running joke at this point, and needs fixing to be useful. He doesn't sell much of use at all, and what he does sell, he only has one each.

Aside from the quarters, the guildhouse is useless, and if you aren't living there, you have ZERO reason to go, so it is not a focal point for assassin RP.

Checking bounties? You can do it in Andunor, near the hub, so there is a banker nearby, and many, many shopkeepers and shops.
Placing bounties? You can do it in Andunor, near the hub, so there is a banker nearby, and many, many shopkeepers and shops.

No, what assassins need to foster assassin RP, is for their guildhouse to not be so hard to reach while it offers so very little. A set of portals to and from the guildhouse and the Andunor guildhouse closet would do WONDERS for making the actual assassin's guild guildhouse have a purpose.
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Re: Assassinations

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:15 am

I definitely thought it was a real shame the Big Boi Assassin House wasn't fleshed out more and had more incentive vs the aptly named Andunor Closet.

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Re: Assassinations

Post by boggle99 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:17 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:25 am
At this juncture, part of the problem is the bounties themselves, or was, until the change that went in so that they stack. Now that bounties stack, its not the fact that bounties are low that is the issue, so much as that the people placing them don't really want the PC dead enough to put a substancial price on them. If someone is suitably unpopular, they'll have a lot of people putting money on their head and they will die. its that simple.
I agree, which is why I'm hoping to foster some discussion on more ways to encourage people to place bounties on peoples heads. Certainly aside from triggering a election wanting them dead is the only reason someone might place a contract, and on this server they are more likely to do it themselves or not care as killing someone doesn't remove the obstacle they represent like in the RL. I hope that more bounties, and more interesting bounties, will lead to more assassin RP.

I agree that some more work on the guild would be nice, but I'm wary of asking for it when the RP isn't about to use it, as there are plenty of places that could use a rework that are already making loads of interesting RP and as a result will naturally be higher on the devs list to update. Once there is more assassin RP, especially if it is good interesting RP, then I think it would be much easier to make a case for improving the guild as it would be clear that the hard work would actually be used.
Durvayas wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:25 am
A set of portals to and from the guildhouse and the Andunor guildhouse closet would do WONDERS for making the actual assassin's guild guildhouse have a purpose.
Though I have just argued against improving the guild, this sounds like it would be something relatively easy to achieve, it could be like the Bendir-Brog portal but tied to class. Also it would be nice for assassins to have a sneakier way into the guild to avoid them being outed by stealthers near the front door. So if this thread reaches the point where we can boil down some simple and easy suggestions I think this should be part of them.

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Re: Assassinations

Post by Echohawk » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:04 pm

It's always important to remember that advocating for death and pvp mechanics, it puts more weight the ideology that 'RP happens only at 30' and the grind train culture.

Is the mechanic something of an interesting way to 'mess up' some government? I'm sure it is.

Can it be used to grief people? You betcha.

Granted this is not advocacy on my part for anything. I know there are some eager folks out there who will use every mechanical piece in place to cause hell for others. While others create great stories with what is already in place, even beyond the mechanics as they are, expanding upon them and breathing life into the gravity of what they represent.
I would only hope that any and all changes support the latter mindset.
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Re: Assassinations

Post by boggle99 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:35 pm

That is something I am wary of, but I think there is less of a chance of this with assassin. It is one of the few prestige classes that still requires a DM token and I imagine DM's take a lot of interest in any reports of it being abused in PvP. I have also mentioned a couple of things that could help counter the rp begins at 30 (a way to tie bounties to level appropriate assassins using the writ system which would also help low level assassin PCs) and griefing (after a successful attempt a RL time limit before another contract can be placed).

I would also argue that Assassins would actually be hard to grief someone with, not only can the characters not only place bounties themselves, it creates a very easy paper trail as to who did as it can only be done in game. If it was the same player as the assassin using a different char I imagine at the least this would lead to a talking to from the team and would be easy to prove. If repeated bounties are being placed, claimed, and then placed again it is clear who is placing the bounties on someones head and who is claiming them, also the when is clear, making it clearer if there is some OOC collusion.

I agree PvP is inherent to the assassin class, even doing the investigating and the digging around the end goal of the character (though not always the player) is to kill another PC. But unlike all of the other PvP heavy choices (Baneite or Pirates for example) Assassin is kept behind a DM guarded door, the fact that they have had relaxed PvP rules for a while now and they haven't been taken away seems to be a argument that they aren't being abused, or that if they are the problem is being resolved quickly.

Also mechanically (according to what I have read on the forums) Assassin is sub par to rogue when it comes to building, especially as you have to take 5 levels in it if you want to access the contracts. So it is chosen as more of a RP choice, if you were more interested in the pure PvP side you could replace assassin levels with fewer rogue ones and join one of the factions that excel in interesting hostile RP.

Does anyone else have any suggestions to add to help incentivise placing a assassin contract over just PvPing someone yourself or getting someone else you know in game to do it?

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