Lenses change

[Cerk Evermoore]

Anytime I hear about anyone doing anything without my epic abjuration character 90% of the time it fails due to lenses or the person in question being summoned away.

Kind of what I meant when talking about the balance part. The fact your character is an epic abjurer makes them useful. If lenses get nerfed then any level 15 ogre barbarian can just hang out at low level respawn points and collect slaves all day. Again sorry if you felt I generalized players of evil characters too much. Not trying to offend anyone, just pointing out that forcing people PVP isn't going to force good RP out of people. If a villain warded against teleportation and trapped me in spider webs I might play along for them to spout some exposition but at the end of the day my character isn't going to submit to yours unless you bring some really good RP to the table and give them more reasons to than a quick forced PVP.

I understand what the above posters are saying and I am by no means suggesting that all capture or villain RP is equal or anywhere near that. Playing a convincing villain is by no means easy and I wouldn't ever suggest it was easy. But I would like to ask that people don't paint everyone with the same brush and that you give each player their own chance.

Both sides occasionally violate the rules and often the most vocal angry minorities is all that is heard. I wouldn't want to get revived to get to RP having all my figures chopped off either, however being revived for a tasteful encounter would always be welcomed by myself personally.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Once again, for emphasis.

The proposed change will not solve the problem it says intends to solve (preloading lenses and using them as a "cheap" method of escaping the consequences of your character's choices), but will instead only mildly inconvenience people who use lenses for other purposes.

[TroubledWaters]

The best change for lenses to promote better RP (both in and out of PvP) would be to put a two or three round (12-18 second) delay from using them to getting ported.

Still, this proposed change seems like a great way to both make GSF Trans worthwhile and limit the "all lens in and gank" attacks by making people actually have to travel to get where they want to go.

[Irongron]

I think I have a good compromise here.

For the Guldorand Update I'm working on there is a large (conceptually near endless) dungeon, which rather than having a circular route 'through' can be used with a Rod of Recall item, which teleports player back to a location in the city.

I could instead make the Rod of Recall a new item. A lesser, cheaper item (with charges) that returns PCs to the starting point (respawn area). It would also possibly be a good thing to give new characters so they're a little more secure exploring the vast server before them.

Portal lenses are not expensive, but are still out of reach of new character, especially if they're being used to quickly exit an adventure due to RL - in that case chucking away over two thousand gold pieces is alot.

The introduction of this item would result in less portal lens use overall (as player would generally prefer to use the cheaper alternative) but leave the original item untouched, for those who value its function.

[magistrasa]

The proposed change will not solve the problem it says intends to solve (preloading lenses and using them as a "cheap" method of escaping the consequences of your character's choices)

Okay I said I'd stop responding but I feel like the original idea is getting misconstrued here.

This isn't in any way proposed to disable lenses as an escape for PvP. If you see someone you know is going to try to kill you, or if you see that mandatory pre-PvP RP is getting hostile towards you, I don't want to stop anyone from using a lens - except for in the instances where they are literally, by design, not meant to be usable, and people are cheating the system. At its core, the proposed change is simply that there is a pre-selected destination for the lens to take you, so there's no menu you can pop open and sit on, and no way to exploit the current lens mechanics. That pre-selected destination can be replaced with pretty much anything.

Replace the respawn point with, maybe, choosing and attuning to a portal source as your return destination, or something like that? It seems like people are reluctant about the "inconvenience" aspect of multiple area transitions, but that'd be removed if you were returning directly to a portal, I suppose. Or, what if they returned you to your last-used portal source! Might be difficult, but I like the implications of that. Like being yanked through a dimensional tether that the lens activates, or something like that. With the lowered utility of lenses in this proposed change, they could potentially be made cheaper, don't forget. That would of course make them more accessible to people of all playstyles - an idea that I actually have mixed feelings about, but I think those feelings would ultimately depend on the final product that the devs come up with.

No doubt the original idea could be tweaked, so if you've any complaints or ideas, tweak away! I just think it's a bit stubborn to dismiss any changes to lenses outright, and I hope the reluctance to see change isn't because the assumption is that it's meant to manipulate people into unsavory roleplay. Felt compelled to comment to remind people of that fact is all.

[Aodh Lazuli]

At its core, the proposed change is simply that there is a pre-selected destination for the lens to take you, so there's no menu you can pop open and sit on, and no way to exploit the current lens mechanics

In what way are people exploiting the lens mechanics that you think this change would solve? I don't see it. What behaviour are you trying to stop?

I don't much care about the change, on the whole. I'm not vigorously against it or anything... I just don't see what negative thing it'll prevent from happening.

[The GrumpyCat]

I think I have a good compromise here.

For the Guldorand Update I'm working on there is a large (conceptually near endless) dungeon, which rather than having a circular route 'through' can be used with a Rod of Recall item, which teleports player back to a location in the city.

I could instead make the Rod of Recall a new item. A lesser, cheaper item (with charges) that returns PCs to the starting point (respawn area). It would also possibly be a good thing to give new characters so they're a little more secure exploring the vast server before them.

Portal lenses are not expensive, but are still out of reach of new character, especially if they're being used to quickly exit an adventure due to RL - in that case chucking away over two thousand gold pieces is alot.

The introduction of this item would result in less portal lens use overall (as player would generally prefer to use the cheaper alternative) but leave the original item untouched, for those who value its function.

Well... I love this idea, for what it's worth.

[Irongron]

Unless this results in massive objection....

Moved this topic back to suggestions as promised, so as to ensure it isn't actioned. Will continue following the related thread.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22165&start=50

I did rather expect this, but didn't expect it to get so heated.

Keep it friendly folks.

[dominantdrowess]

@Aodh Lazuli
The reason I like the lens changes is if lenses go to a pre-determined location (such as your spawn point) ... then they can't be preloaded because of a menu hanging open. This is a positive effect for options 1 and 2.

[TroubledWaters]

@Aodh Lazuli
The reason I like the lens changes is if lenses go to a pre-determined location (such as your spawn point) ... then they can't be preloaded because of a menu hanging open. This is a positive effect for options 1 and 2.

Right, this is a really important effect that the change would have.

[flower]

@Aodh Lazuli
The reason I like the lens changes is if lenses go to a pre-determined location (such as your spawn point) ... then they can't be preloaded because of a menu hanging open. This is a positive effect for options 1 and 2.

Or just put a timer once menu is up it lasts 30-60 seconds to pick destination and closes.

[Aodh Lazuli]

@Aodh Lazuli
The reason I like the lens changes is if lenses go to a pre-determined location (such as your spawn point) ... then they can't be preloaded because of a menu hanging open. This is a positive effect for options 1 and 2.

But surely the preloading issue could be solved in any number of ways that do not involve making lenses more annoying for other purposes. For example, a timer on their use, whereby after you click your destination, there is a visual effect and a delay before actually being transported there. A floaty bit of text that appears above someone's head that says "X has just used a portal lens"... And so on...

These wouldn't interfere with all the other uses for lenses. And wuld only impact upon the behaviour deemed negative.

The thing is when I said "are you doing it to resolve this issue?", regarrding escape from pvp using preloaded portal menus... I got the answer from the person who suggested this in the first place, that this wasn't the intention.


However, once again, people are looking at a situation as if the thing people are complaining about is the actual problem.

Are people are using exploitative and frustrating means to escape pvp?
- Yes.

Why?
- Because they don't like the way people are conducting pvp and feel they're unduly subjected to the whims of other players and feel like they lack agency in the encounter.

Is this a legitimate issue?
- Yes.

Is the problem with people not being willing to lose?
- Yes.

Is the problem also with people being a little too eager to get their captive and not really having much regard for the loser in certain situations?
- Yes.


Is the solution to both of those underlying issues a better program of education for the playerbase and orchestrating a shift in player culture to make pvp less of an emotive issue for all participants win OR lose, rather than weird mechanical solutions to problems that also impact on perfectly acceptable behaviour?
- Absolutely.

[Kalopsia]

What about adding a timer to the portal lens destination dialogue box? I’m thinking about a similar implementation as with the -yoink confirmation dialogue here.

Give players 30 seconds to choose their portal destination before the “portal lens’ magic has faded” and teleportation won’t work anymore.

This option would also make preloading a lens mechanically impossible, yet retain the versatility of various destinations.

[Ebonstar]

Since that day i play with -unrelent. Oh well, does it make me less good rper in eyes of Ebonstar? I am fine with that, really. And i disagree with you in one point, level of character should not determinate if gets killed or not. No, i personally have no issue with that, the ongoing thing should not depand on levels of people (bar camping area on purpose for low level characters that is something else).

@ Flower

Unrelent has nothing to do with captivity after the fact, it keeps you from being tied up with a mechanical rope. Sorry that your captive experience was bad where a I had a good one. And it has nothing to do with your style or being a good or bad RPer.

My point is that if you are going to use a mechanic that stops becoming captive when others take time using subdual to not kill and promote interogation RP it seems ( which implies my opinion), to be on the selfish side that its ok for the hero to capture and interrogate but not the villain.

And just for the list, I didnt even know about -unrelent until it was mentioned in this thread and had to check the wiki to even find out what is did

[MissEvelyn]

Do I personally like this suggestion? Yes. But I don't think it would be change for the better of the server, simply because of how portals are set up and made to use. A lot of good counter-arguments against the suggestions have already been made, so there's not use of echoing that. It's a no from me.

However... I would like if an item was added, perhaps a cheaper and more common version of the Portal Lens, that indeed took you to your respawn point upon use (and was consumed, just as with Portal Lenses).
In fact, I'd say Portal Lenses could stand to increase in gold value, just a tiny bit, and then we could have these Attunement Lenses (someone come up with a better name, please) which are lower in value and easier to craft as well - if they're added to the crafting menues, that is.

EDIT: I just saw the last few posts. A Rod of Recall is exactly in the spirit of the idea stated above! =)

[flower]

Since that day i play with -unrelent. Oh well, does it make me less good rper in eyes of Ebonstar? I am fine with that, really. And i disagree with you in one point, level of character should not determinate if gets killed or not. No, i personally have no issue with that, the ongoing thing should not depand on levels of people (bar camping area on purpose for low level characters that is something else).

@ Flower

Unrelent has nothing to do with captivity after the fact, it keeps you from being tied up with a mechanical rope. Sorry that your captive experience was bad where a I had a good one. And it has nothing to do with your style or being a good or bad RPer.

My point is that if you are going to use a mechanic that stops becoming captive when others take time using subdual to not kill and promote interogation RP it seems ( which implies my opinion), to be on the selfish side that its ok for the hero to capture and interrogate but not the villain.

And just for the list, I didnt even know about -unrelent until it was mentioned in this thread and had to check the wiki to even find out what is did

My own characters are taking captives only if person yields, not by beating them into surrender. I however, cannot tell my companions how to play and will not argue with them if They decide to raise someone killed into captivity. if i would raise someone it would be just to set person free and walk off. I never said that someone who does not like to play a prisoner as do good character should capture villains.

Also yes, putting up timer on dialogue is the easier way to prevent exploit being used. You want to escape, fine do so, but no time to toss boasting.

Irongron, that option to port into safe area like town, how about to tie it up with the settlement updates, giving it option to upkeep teleport for citizens once per rest. And allow to new character up to level 10th to use it too (once per rest, into spawn point they select).

[The GrumpyCat]

My point is that if you are going to use a mechanic that stops becoming captive when others take time using subdual to not kill and promote interogation RP it seems ( which implies my opinion), to be on the selfish side that its ok for the hero to capture and interrogate but not the villain.

I realize we're stepping beyond the conversation of 'portal lenses' here, and I apologise if I'm diverting the topic somewhat, but curiously enough I actually slightly dissagree with this.

Now don't get me wrong. I fully support, condone and even encourage people to offer, and to accept, captive RP. For the most part it does nothing but further a story, and often it can be a bit more fulfiling than simply killing someone. It's good to properly roleplay the effects of victory, or of loss, and is often the sign of a good roleplayer that they're willing to go with the flow in such situations.

However.

There's the world of difference between 'recommended' and 'Mandatory.' And I don't think that capture RP, no matter who is on the other side, should ever be considered 'mandatory.' This doesn't mean you should always offer your enemy an option to escape, but enforcing extended rp onto them, when oocly they're clearly not interested, is also pretty bad form. If someone is obviously uninterested in continuing that line of rp - whether your capture rp consists of vicious torture, or gentle prothlotizing, then it doesn't seem very sporting.

That there is an out, even if thoust 'out' is only 'Death.' is fair.

[JediZero]

I kind of feel like the topic has run its course.

that said if the lenses stay the same but that rod of recall becomes a thing, that sounds fine to me.

[TroubledWaters]

Lenses are so cheap it won't really make a difference for high level characters, so I guess the Rod of Recall is more of a "Babby's First Lens" item.

You could probably farm up a lens in about 5-10 minutes.

[Durvayas]

I like the idea of the rod of recall, especially if its an item that has a 1/day usage on it.

I also understand the arguement about convenience and ability to move around for casual players. Sure some don't have hyper easy access to portals and limited time. I'm personally in favor of more caravans that leave at pre-determined times to go from point A to point B as a means of getting people to gather for travel RP as an alternative.

Lenses are nice, but they are not strictly nescessary, especially not nowadays when a quarter of all epic magi can just conjure temporary portals.

It was stated that arelith swings between inconvenience in getting around and effortlessly getting around. Right now, we're at the point of effortlessly getting around, and personally I think it could stand to swing in favor of running along the roads.

Regarding this point:

However, once again, people are looking at a situation as if the thing people are complaining about is the actual problem.

Are people are using exploitative and frustrating means to escape pvp?
- Yes.

Why?
- Because they don't like the way people are conducting pvp and feel they're unduly subjected to the whims of other players and feel like they lack agency in the encounter.

Is this a legitimate issue?
- Yes.

Is the problem with people not being willing to lose?
- Yes.

Is the problem also with people being a little too eager to get their captive and not really having much regard for the loser in certain situations?
- Yes.


Is the solution to both of those underlying issues a better program of education for the playerbase and orchestrating a shift in player culture to make pvp less of an emotive issue for all participants win OR lose, rather than weird mechanical solutions to problems that also impact on perfectly acceptable behaviour?
- Absolutely.

I'm in total agreement.

I think that this proposed lense change is a bit of a hamfisted method of attempting to deal with a rule breach issue that could be better dealt with via Kalopsia's suggestion.

What about adding a timer to the portal lens destination dialogue box? I’m thinking about a similar implementation as with the -yoink confirmation dialogue here.

Give players 30 seconds to choose their portal destination before the “portal lens’ magic has faded” and teleportation won’t work anymore.

This option would also make preloading a lens mechanically impossible, yet retain the versatility of various destinations.

[monkeywithstick]

Don't feel too strongly about this but I would add that the "optimal" response to the arcane tower being the optimal destination might well be to teleport ward it.
There are ways to arrange so ic (project image) and it's not super short lived, but I suspect it may well end up metagamed. Hard counter to, (assuming arcane tower is the optimal destination and people do not reset spawn points based on the above) say 80% of your opponents lensing out would be pretty strong.

[CosmicOrderV]

I would honestly like to see lensing be less common and more folks walking about, and interacting in the open world. Chance, unplanned encounters, are immersion at its best. Maybe with irongron's rod of recall, and lenses from np merchants being 1000g-2000g more expensive, it would be a nice fix. Little bit more of a gold sink. Same function. Encourage crafting them yourself. Easy escape with new item.

[TheFanciestChocolates]

I'm not liking this idea. Sometimes, I have one or two hours to play and would like to spend time roleplaying in a dungeon or settlement rather than slogging through 1xp mobs for 30 minutes on the roads in risk-frees fight that takes a long time due to mob hp and spawn numbers.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Just use the underused expedition system to port to pve spots. Or walk to the Arcane Tower. Casual players will find a way to survive.

[Halibutthead]

i agree that there's too much fast-travel in the game.

i don't think this suggestion will change that, as in between cries of how much it'll destroy everyone's experience and ruin their lives, it's also been pointed out that it'll mostly just mean people will set their respawn points next to the arcane tower (on the surface) or wherever near the hub in the underdark, and just have to transition one or two times to teleport wherever they want anyway.

that said, i could care less one way or the other. i'm suprised so many people are that outraged. (and am i too late to gang up on lady astray? looked like people were having fun with that, too)