Dice Bag and Conflict.

[Royal Blood]

I've been thinking about ways that conflict could be resolved in Arelith and I think one of the most obvious solutions or tools to give players to resolve conflict is a dice Bag that let's them roll off their stats.

If you are being held by another character, what determines if you can escape or not? No one can roll on their stats to use that system to determine a fair outcome.

Another example is from another server I played on awhile ago, I was captured by a very high level character and instead of destroying me in PVP we rolled back and forth on strength, dex, persuade, etc and my character had the opportunity to do something other then #getrektd.

Other examples could be arena duals based off of rolls, maybe magician rolls to perform some slight of hand trick, or you roll discipline in order to see if your character goes nuts on someone or retains there cool. Rolling spot checks or lore checks etc.

The dice Bag system would still be choice based, like just because someone rolls a 40 in persuade doesn't mean you have to believe that cows rule a moon empire from up above, but it's better to have a roll system based off of tangible stats I think to give players more tools to more creatively role-play

[The Rambling Midget]

It's been suggested probably a hundred times, over the years, but it always gets shot down.

DMs are able to use visible rolls, but when that ability is handed to players, it can be used to force RP through social pressure by insisting that another player abide by a simple die roll, rather than basing actions on the full depth of their character. In the absence of an active DM presence, like you would have in PnP, qualitative and quantitative systems can clash disastrously. You do have the ability to roll dice through the NWN console, if you and another player want to use rolls, but it will not be visible to others, and so will rely on trust.

[Royal Blood]

Anything can be used to force RP emotions *punches player in the face* is the same, but I'd be more willing to accept being punched in the face if we both rolled and I failed to dodge it or whatever. I've seen dice work to great effect elsewhere I'm not convinced that Arelith players would not be able to use them responsibily.

I can see there being a clash but I think it'd be no more or less a clash anyways if players simply didn't want to abide by each other's actions. Like most things it does in part relie on players being respectful.

[Rooshi49]

Anything can be used to force RP emotions *punches player in the face* is the same, but I'd be more willing to accept being punched in the face if we both rolled and I failed to dodge it or whatever. I've seen dice work to great effect elsewhere I'm not convinced that Arelith players would not be able to use them responsibly.

I can see there being a clash but I think it'd be no more or less a clash anyways if players simply didn't want to abide by each other's actions. Like most things it does in part relies on players being respectful.

Its at the very least very frowned upon to "god-mode" someone by emoting that you punch them in the face. I would suggest suggest instead using the wording of the emote to be *Goes to punch player in the face* so they can respond with something along the lines of *Dodges to the left, and avoids the punch* , *Takes the punch to the face with a smile, not budging an inch* , or *The punch lands right in the middle of nose as an audible crunch can be heard and falls over*.

All of these different choices can be made depending on the player. Ofcourse some people can be unreasonable and you emote pulling off all their limbs and they're just smiles and giggles as a response, but well . . . idk what to say to that. It's happened to me before.

[Nitro]

God emoting is actually against the rules, listed on the wiki under the be-nice rule:
http://wiki.arelith.com/Godemoting

And I'd rather not have dicebags where high level players are given mechanical backing to manhandle lower level characters in any way they please. "Oh, the 40 STR character rolled 41 to pick up my character, I literally can't beat that so I guess I have to go along with it" And when people say no to going along with it, there will inevitably be hurt feelings on the part of the roller because they feel like their RP is being ignored.

All in all, I'd rather leave rolls entirely mechanical in the form of PvP, or entirely optional in the form of console rolls.

[Sea Shanties]

I like the way it is now. If you want to lift another character (for example) you ask them, and if it makes sense for the story and if there's enough trust to see where it goes.. They'll probably let you. It's like an improv game more than PNP and creativity and trust is more important than numbers.

I'm not so afraid of dice roll bullies as I am of having yet another layer of nebulous rules to be on top of, especially if its between players. A good DM knows how to handle these skill rolls on the fly (what stats to roll against what stats) and how to modify them by the situation. It's just too much between players.

[Ork]

If you're going to *punch you in the face*, you better dislike and actually throw down. Players should certainly negotiate and use the ingame feature of ~ d20, d6, etc. It's always fun to throw dice rolls into minor game player like bluffing on a game of cards.

[Royal Blood]

Anything can be used to force RP emotions *punches player in the face* is the same, but I'd be more willing to accept being punched in the face if we both rolled and I failed to dodge it or whatever. I've seen dice work to great effect elsewhere I'm not convinced that Arelith players would not be able to use them responsibly.

I can see there being a clash but I think it'd be no more or less a clash anyways if players simply didn't want to abide by each other's actions. Like most things it does in part relies on players being respectful.

Its at the very least very frowned upon to "god-mode" someone by emoting that you punch them in the face. I would suggest suggest instead using the wording of the emote to be *Goes to punch player in the face* so they can respond with something along the lines of *Dodges to the left, and avoids the punch* , *Takes the punch to the face with a smile, not budging an inch* , or *The punch lands right in the middle of nose as an audible crunch can be heard and falls over*.

All of these different choices can be made depending on the player. Ofcourse some people can be unreasonable and you emote pulling off all their limbs and they're just smiles and giggles as a response, but well . . . idk what to say to that. It's happened to me before.

Well Goes to punch in the face, yeah sure, but the acceptance of that punch falls entirely upon the discretion of the character rather than a roll. Or the 'strength' of the punch, say it hits but your playing a noodle armed wizard you have nothing to draw upon unless that detail is included in the emote. It just sort of fleshes it out more if you could roll for it

[flower]

I would like the dice added into the game many times run into case where die roll would be handy like when character wants to flip a coin and get a random result.

[MissEvelyn]

I've played on servers that had Skill and Ability rolls, and it was, quite frankly, horrible. Not only was it a nightmare for the DMs to police certain rolls and their counters (bluff, to give an example), but it also left a sour taste in many people's mouths when they weren't allowed to back out of roleplay.

Please, for the love of all things good, do not implement player-side rolls. I would much rather let Roleplay play out the experience.

[The Kriv]

Is it time for the Dice Bag debate again?

The fight for the dice-bag is long lost. But considering we have "dice tables," Dart-boards and archery targets, adding in a single "coin" that flips and dictates the outcome would actually be pretty gosh darn cool.

[Royal Blood]

I think the main argument against this is that if we had dice and someone like tries to capture you in an arm lock, they roll strength and get a high roll and you roll low. Now by merit of the mechanical system you are obligated to play along. But if you don't want to play along that's bad? I think that the inability to rely on a mechanical system to find resolutions to things means that you are not RPing with the In game Character, you're trying to convince the OOC person to play along, but that shouldn't be the focus. IT's the IC stats that matter.

There's also the argument that I'm trying to wrap my head around explaining where I think it's like

A: No mechanical systems (OR very few), everyone is just cool and RPs how they like and all is good and the respect of RP is based off of the OOC willingness to adhere to it.

B: Implement mechanical systems to give us something to play off of and use to enforce RP standards.

This same argument ties into the slavery system.

I suppose if I had to identify what I think the issue is against systems like these is that players want to retain the absolute ability to control the fate of their character. Personally, I do not want that responsibility. I know what the counter argument is, like

"Well if you're a good RPer you'll always make the good RP Choice."

But let's be real, sometimes the 'good' RP choice is hard to make. And that is followed with the argument

"Well if you didn't really want to do it in the first place, no one should be able to force you to do it."

While I think the freedom to choose is important, we already have the core freedom of being able to choose when our character dies or leaves for good, and slavery is only allowed when agreed to by the enslaved.

I think that with this fear of being 'forced' into things we quell the -greatest- part of RP which is -true- adventure. True... Danger? A genuine and real feeling of 'Uknown' without our OOC ability to intervene as a safety net.

Awhile ago on another server my character did something bad to some city guards and was arrested, their arrest mechanic litterally chains you to the guard. So IC wise, I was forced to do this. But I really enjoyed that, the fear of losing control, the fear of being forced towards something that made me nervous! Was my character going to get let off with a fine? Tortured? Killed? I don't know! But forcing that encounter to me, was much better then pretending to be bound up and retaining the OOC ability to decide what to do.

I suppose what I am trying to get at, is yeah, even without the mechanical system I could have just been a good sport and RP'd along with it. But it's something about... Knowing, truly, that I -cannot- back out of this that made the danger of it all, all the more real. If that makes sense?

Like the tight rope walkers. Why do they remove the safety nets? Because it makes the act that much more thrilling!

I do not know if I've explained that accurately or in a way that conveys truly what I'm trying to get at. I'm against absolute OOC ability to choose what happens. I think on the outside that statement looks... Bad? But I think when you dig deeper into it, it makes sense given what I described about a heightened sense of danger.

I suppose the counter argument, much like I put above is to say that if you want that kind of RP you can just do it. But I don't want to be OOCly choosing to do these things. I just want them to happen IC/IG in a 'natural' way that is unaffected by my choices or desires OOC.

Anyways *Head rub* I think that's the best I can explain it and why I would support a dice system to provide a sort of like, core, base whatever for actions/choices to be amplified by. I think too much freedom places too much pressure on the OOC person to decide what to do and takes away from the natural excitement of the story developing on its own.

[The Rambling Midget]

I agree with what you're saying, with the caveat that there must be an active DM overseeing all of it to ensure that things remain fair, fun, and appropriately RPed. We don't have that, and we never will. There would have to be nearly as many DMs as players.

The RPR system is meant to provide a less extreme form of what you're after. It offers an incentive to be flexible and cooperative in your RP, and if you surround yourself with the right people, you'll find that a surprising number of them are willing to go along with being tossed around and losing, so long as you are being reasonable and making it fun.

A hard, unregulated system that allows powerbuilding to dictate RP will only encourage an even greater focus on mechanics, to the detriment of good storytelling, and it won't be fun.

[mf_hansen]

I would hope dice rolls are seen as just an optional tool in the RP belt that other players can always decline to follow (just as they can decline uninteresting RP emotes/etc if they feel it worsens the storytelling).

PvP is also inherently unbalanced, with max level characters killing low level characters in one hit, but again this is entirely an optional RP tool you can always decline, and you can examine the other player for a weak hint of their physical abilities (sadly you cannot know if they are level 30 with 300 hit points and epic spells or level 1 with barely 6 hit points).

If any player uses any means to force storytelling upon unwanting victims, I would assume this will be reported to DMs regardless of the RP tool being abused or misunderstood.

If the dice tool somehow could automatically handle opposed rolls or somehow easily explain them (and situational modifiers) that might lessen the risk of misunderstanding it. But taking all situations and opposed rolls into account seems challenging to implement in a simple manner.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I would hope dice rolls are seen as just an optional tool in the RP belt that other players can always decline to follow (just as they can decline uninteresting RP emotes/etc if they feel it worsens the storytelling).

This discussion has come up a few times over the years, and this is the most reasonable sentiment that I always find missing from it.

I don't think anyone who suggests a dice bag as something players could use to resolve questionable circumstances like two characters arm-wrestling or the like is trying to suggest that everyone suddenly has to use dice rolls all the time. If Tom across the tavern throws his mug at you, and you don't feel like rolling, don't.

But the option for two people to include this sort of byplay to their narrative without having to announce your roll yourself would be nice.

Bob leans forward over the table, elbow firmly planted, locking grips with Joe, muddy brown eyes trying to stare down dirt-black across the table. At the signal to start, he heaves with all his might, his tongue sticking out and his eyes crossing as he attempts to slam his opponent.

Bob rolls STR: 18+7=25

Joe wipes his hands on his tunic before he pulls up to the table and interlocks his own hand with Bob's, not wanting his grip to be affected by sweat. For a moment, he has to struggle not to laugh as he's suddenly heaving back with his own arm against Bob's surprise attack!

Joe rolls STR: 15+9 = 24

Catching Joe off guard with his silly antics, Bob manages to quickly pin his hand to the table before he can recover!

Something like that just seems like it would be a nice thing to have. I don't see why the dice bags can't just have it written in their description that their use isn't obligatory, but optional.

[flower]

Oh i do not want skills or ability dice bag. I just want generic dice for more common use during play, not to replace mechanic.

[Irongron]

I won't be adding Dice Bags/Items to Arelith for anything but in-character dice games.

Optional or not, asking other players via tells to roll their skill checks is not acceptable, nor ever will be.

[naturaly]

Something that simply generates a d20 roll when deciding who get loot or something would be of great use, no revealing of skills or anything OOC needed. The dice table isn’t convenient nor does make sense IC to use in these situation.

[Mythical]

Just a few examples:

Someone goes to grapple you, you both roll, they beat your str check. They win. Well where in that check is the fact that the weak thing you just grappled is as nimble as a slick eel and should be able to squirm away better? Alright their str vs your dex, roll. Str wins still. Well where in all that is the check that is covered by their reflex saves, the fact that they would win any inititive (such as pnp) or the fact that they perhaps have dodge feats or say epic dodge that would let them not get grabbed if they so chose. I don't know about you but I don't always like to disclose a build to my opponent and in that situation the str side would either be mad you didn't go along with them winning or you would have to tell them the why.

You are sitting in a bar having some great rp with your table mates. Another few are scattered about the bar. Bartender tosses a mug at someone, the someone decides yeah lets let the dice decide! Fine, that's great, they are choosing to use the mechanic and it has nothing to do with you. Except now during your fantastic rp you have constantly scrolling dice rolls from the people across the way. Yes, it may be just two or it may become a few more. Or to magnify that it could be you out on the street and every few sentences is someone making dice rolls. I don't know about you but that would jerk me completely out of immersion and make things very frustrating, just like the random npcs in Mayfields yelling about the bad actors.

Yes those examples could or probably are extreme cases but they should still be thought of and considered. You may chose to use it and want the person you are rping with too and they don't want to use it. I could make a character that has max skill dump and feats taken in Persuade just so that I can use that and dice to win /every single argument/ that I'm involved in. Just a few things I thought should be brought to light in the discussion.


The one thing I'm not understanding is how any of this is relative to the slavery system. A dice roll won vs giving someone the option to get a collar? Or are you meaning once the person is a slave they lose all freedom of choice? Because if that is the case the person knows or should know going in that becoming a slave means slave. You are not the one in charge any longer. And even still then? Anything you don't want to go along with really can't be forced other than the slave caller yoink, and that I still think would be nice if it were changed so only the owner or people the owner add to say their 'slave faction' can use.

[flower]

Something that simply generates a d20 roll when deciding who get loot or something would be of great use, no revealing of skills or anything OOC needed. The dice table isn’t convenient nor does make sense IC to use in these situation.

Yes that, nothing related to the skills. I would just add, it may be integrated into the game via *X rolls a die* or *X flips a coin* to prevent people trying to force skill rolls trough it.

[The Rambling Midget]

I would hope dice rolls are seen as just an optional tool in the RP belt that other players can always decline to follow (just as they can decline uninteresting RP emotes/etc if they feel it worsens the storytelling).

That's a fine theory, but unless the dice bag spits out a text wall of terms and conditions every time you use it, people will start to send tells that sound like "I rolled dice against you and I beat you. You have to let me win now, or you're cheating." That threat of punishment against inexperienced players can be very detrimental.

[Royal Blood]

I won't be adding Dice Bags/Items to Arelith for anything but in-character dice games.

Optional or not, asking other players via tells to roll their skill checks is not acceptable, nor ever will be.

I don't really understand this or agree with it but if that's the way it is. *Shrug*

[MissEvelyn]

That's a fine theory, but unless the dice bag spits out a text wall of terms and conditions every time you use it, people will start to send tells that sound like "I rolled dice against you and I beat you. You have to let me win now, or you're cheating." That threat of punishment against inexperienced players can be very detrimental.

+1. This describes exactly what I've seen on a server where skill/ability rolls were a thing.

[DM Avalon Soul]

Such could be in the Dicebag's description theoretically, too!

[Fionn]

The dice table isn’t convenient nor does make sense IC to use in these situation.

I'll disagree it doesn't make IC sense. I've come back with a newly met Dwarf and a single valuable drop. We agreed IC to let a roll decide rather than selling it and splitting. I won. He asked for best 2 of 3. I declined We were great comrades until he stopped logging in

There is also an easily craftable 'Playable Card Deck' I've used IC to split loot.

If you ever needed an OOC method, combat log is a pretty easy; just punch something/someone. I'll agree with fearless leader here - I'd hate to see us move to even an optional /d20 forces your RP system.