Disguise: How it can be better

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Sea Shanties
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Sea Shanties » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:51 pm

I agree as well, that was a well written post..

I think a really great player is 90% character, 10% DM. The 10% DM involves benevolent metagaming-- stuff like trying to be aware of other players' storylines and agendas and directing stories to involve them, thinking steps ahead as to where something could lead (and end-- there aren't enough great endings here), trying to make the environment feel real and lived-in with extra detail. You need to be able to easily communicate with others, using tells and faction messages and more to pull this off.

Total immersion is never going to happen and I don't think that's where we should be headed anyway. It can easily lead to a "trust no one, every player for themselves" mentality which I think is unhealthy for this community. That could be fun in a more cutthroat lone survivalist type of game but I don't think this is that. We're more like improv actors here trying to create extended storylines and that requires communication, trust and willingness to go along with what other people are trying to do, including disguising their character.

Not everyone plays that way, I know, but most of the good players do and it's a playstyle that I think has to be learned so even some of those who aren't on board will eventually come around the more they play.

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Durvayas
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Durvayas » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:45 pm

The problem with disguise is with the malignant players on the server. If you make it impossible to tell a disguise apart from a normal PC, you make it harder for players to accurately report rulebreaks to the DM staff. You make it easier to spoof people and damage their OOC reputation as a player.

The (disguised) tag is nescessary to prevent abuse. It doesn't tell a PC that the person in front of them is disguised, it tells the player.
The WYSIWYG rules about descriptions are hamfisted, and some method of automating a change of description to prevent issues arising from the disguise system's use would be welcome. As is, the system is broken and nonfunctional.

When the system IS functioning, people who disguise frequently are de-incentivized from having long/any description due to the irritating nature of constantly manually replacing your desc.

Putting the description working out of the PC journal, or some other form of automated system, perhaps off a letter in the inventory, would be a welcome, glorious change.
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Orian_666
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Orian_666 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:50 pm

Descriptions can be set up (now that you can save descriptions) to automatically change when you enter a disguise.
Just name the saved description the same as the disguise name.
Eg. "-disguise John Smith" will activate the Description saved as "John Smith". Coming out of disguise will set your description back to the way it was.

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Durvayas
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Durvayas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:19 am

That was fast.
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Xerah
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Xerah » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:21 am

That change happened months ago.
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Morderon » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:03 am

Not only did it happen months ago

Durvayas thanked us for it viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17896&p=149399&hil ... se#p149399 ;)

Orian_666
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Orian_666 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:06 am

Been using it for ages, it's a brilliant addition :D

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Durvayas
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Durvayas » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:08 am

Morderon wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:03 am
Not only did it happen months ago

Durvayas thanked us for it viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17896&p=149399&hil ... se#p149399 ;)
.......

I have no memory of this. :oops: >_<
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Hunter548
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:28 am

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You're right. Participating in the forums was a mistake. Won't do this again.
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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by msterswrdsmn » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:12 pm

My personal feedback after using the disguise system heavily

1. Some kind of (Disguise) tag is needed. Will people spam-examine you? Possibly, but theres a cooldown timer for that (I think). The problem is I have absolutely no way of knowing right now if someone is actively disguised and vise versa. This has led to some awkward movements were we reacted ICly to someone, only to get a tell going "wait, i'm disguised!" I've also had the reverse happen to me as well, especially when buffs are obscuring your disguise.

Whoops.

Zero malice. Zero intent. Most people just don't automatically mash the examine button when running into someone, which is the only way you can tell on first contact.

Zed
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Zed » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:45 pm

If a player knows somone is disguised even if they cannot beat the check. It opens the door to malice.

It is better that they remove the chance of malice to more effectively find those who are truely doing it maliciously than to open the door to ignorance

Sea Shanties
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Sea Shanties » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:02 pm

The malicious are gonna malice. That's what they do. The system worked well before, yeah some people didn't play fair but that's nothing new. Most of the time the disguise was respected. As with anything if you're being interesting with what you're doing, even if it's obviously shady, most players will play along to see where this goes. The ones who don't, screw 'em, there's plenty of other people to play with.

The more you make it so other players can't be trusted and communicated with the more you're going to see players who are only in it for themselves. Distrust is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Zed » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 am

Its hard to ignore being slayed by a malicious player.

Saying its just a part of the game is sweeping the problem under the rug for a large majority of players. At the very least the DMs should have tools to be able to actually root out the issue of these players and Punish them accordingly instead of just ignoring the issue.

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:01 am

Zed wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 am
Its hard to ignore being slayed by a malicious player.

Saying its just a part of the game is sweeping the problem under the rug for a large majority of players. At the very least the DMs should have tools to be able to actually root out the issue of these players and Punish them accordingly instead of just ignoring the issue.
Do you not agree it would be much more work for a DM to track down a malicious player who took advantage of a disguise that wasn't tagged? Especially if they disguised themselves as the names of other characters attached to other players' accounts?
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Orian_666
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Orian_666 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:12 am

DMs have the tools.

Screencap the entire encounter, send it to them in a PM, and they'll take appropriate action after they investigate it themselves.
If it's punishable then they will punish.

This is a community that needs to work together for the betterment of the experience.

If you feel a rule was broken or there was foul play then get all the evidence you can and give it to the DMs with a report to help them better do their job, a job that they definitely do!!

Honestly i'd much prefer a system without the Disguise Tag (maybe a hidden one for the DM logs so the team can discern if it was a disguise or not, and who it really was to help weed out griefers) but I also agree that the extra trouble it'd bring may be not worth it... maybe..

But with the problems that the Disguise Tag does bring we can very effectively deal with them by simply doing our part to make the DMs jobs easier. If you feel a rule was broken or someone did something they shouldn't have, then take note of it all, get all the information, as many screenshots of the whole thing as you can get, and pass it along so they can do their jobs!

Zed
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Zed » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:29 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:01 am
Zed wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 am
Its hard to ignore being slayed by a malicious player.

Saying its just a part of the game is sweeping the problem under the rug for a large majority of players. At the very least the DMs should have tools to be able to actually root out the issue of these players and Punish them accordingly instead of just ignoring the issue.
Do you not agree it would be much more work for a DM to track down a malicious player who took advantage of a disguise that wasn't tagged? Especially if they disguised themselves as the names of other characters attached to other players' accounts?
A PC being able to identify a disguise and a DM being able to identify a disguise are two entirely different things and a false equivelency.

My arguement is that a PC should not know that a person is disguised unless they break the disguise check, otherwise it defeats the purpose of being disguised in the first place.

A DM has an entirely different set of tools to find out who is and is not disguised.

What I am trying to articulate is that if a Player cannot tell if a PC is disguised then they would have to willfully and maliciously meta in order to beat the disguise out of character. A DM would be able to more easily recognize this when it happens and leave less room for plausible deniability.

That is the main issue.

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Queen Titania » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:10 pm

I'm very against removing the disguise tag, tools or not, it will make our job harder and invites more ill than good.

We should instead have more faith in our fellow players. While experience highly varies, I've had zero issues when being disguised with the tag personally.
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:31 pm

I personally prefer the disguise tag myself~

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:21 am

Zed wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:29 am
A PC being able to identify a disguise and a DM being able to identify a disguise are two entirely different things and a false equivelency.
A DM has an entirely different set of tools to find out who is and is not disguised.
We disagree here- player agency is a huge part of reporting anything. This is why if you don't report it, it didn't happen. I'm not saying DM's wouldn't be able to achieve this, I'm saying they would have to take extra steps, hence making it more difficult than with the disguise tag.
My arguement is that a PC should not know that a person is disguised unless they break the disguise check, otherwise it defeats the purpose of being disguised in the first place.


We also disagree, here. This is a cooperative story-telling experience. A character shouldn't know a person is disguised unless they break the disguise check- believing the other player shouldn't starts off assuming they will maliciously misuse the information rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, and engenders an "I need to win or things will go wrong," mentality.

Why wouldn't you want the other player to know you're disguised, and that their character isn't able to break it, so that the two of you can build something together off of that, rather than one side or another being completely ignorant of the other side's stake in the story?


What I am trying to articulate is that if a Player cannot tell if a PC is disguised then they would have to willfully and maliciously meta in order to beat the disguise out of character. A DM would be able to more easily recognize this when it happens and leave less room for plausible deniability.
I am attempting to convey that a malicious player is going to be malicious with or without the disguise tag, while it's removal removes the agency of players who aren't malicious to cooperate with each other towards a known narrative goal (the disguise). I myself play someone who uses the disguise function frequently - it would certainly be "easier" for me if there was no tag, but it would also deprive me of many potential encounters of the sort which provide all the tension and fun behind disguise RP in the first place.

Personally, I wish it was an option to hide or not hide your slave collar with the disguise feature, rather than having it automatically be a "perk" that's always on at a certain number of ranks when using a -disguise. A slave collar could actually add an air of legitimacy to some disguises in the appropriate circumstances.
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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:00 am

We disagree here- player agency is a huge part of reporting anything. This is why if you don't report it, it didn't happen. I'm not saying DM's wouldn't be able to achieve this, I'm saying they would have to take extra steps, hence making it more difficult than with the disguise tag.
There's a lot of truth to this.

I'm not saying, 'If players don't report it, it doesn't happen.' Because we also do regular checks for things we happen to see and find sketchy. But the more and better players report things the more likely they are to be dealt with, and the quicker we can deal with them.

And extra time it takes us to look into these things is time lost from helping players out with other issues, or checking other reports, or running fun quests, or raising rpr.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Maltheer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:27 pm

Is there any update either way? or an ETA? (or is it being looked into?)

The reason i ask is, as it stands i will not waste the points in bluff if things are not fixed in either of the two ways. I would prefer the Disguise tag personally.

In the years i have played, it tells the other players not to be a tool and helpfully alerts them that they need to pay attention to the situation. There has been a rare wanker, mostly through constant spamming of inspect of a player which will cause players to lose piety if the trickery god intercedes and take 25% piety. (especially when a bluffer is starting out and the odds of breaking it are good at low levels)

The biggest argument i see for the disguise tag is.. You do not know the persons name from the tag above there head, and people follow that rule 99% of the time, and really only make mistakes sometimes. Are we proposing to remove that as well? No. I personally used descriptions in my disguise not names anyway, which would allow people to not have to dig into details if they are just passing by. *frail old man*, *Rough Woodsman*

If the decision is made to replace the tag all together, that's fine too, but i believe that is as likely as someone miss-using the no Disguise tags well.

Instead of spending my points on a system that people unknowingly ignore often, and on accident i will avoid the whole issue and place my points into something i see as useful. (even though i would much, much rather place them in bluff) (im actually holding points in hopes it gets fixed)

Thanks all, Dwarven Marksman (Disguised)

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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:32 pm

It will come when a contributor has the time to complete it. There is never an ETA on these things, ETA's are never given for projects.
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Maltheer
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Re: Disguise: How it can be better

Post by Maltheer » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:36 pm

No problem, i was not pushing. Just Curious.

Seeing all the updates that are happening, i think we all know you guys are working fast and furious.

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