a neutral feedback thread for possible class hak

[Ebonstar]

yes im talking about paladins

way back in dragon magazine there was an article called plethora of paladins which gave stats for paladins of all alignments.

this way every diety can have their paladins who strive to fight for their god or goddess and what they stand for

this way would put blackguard back as a true prestige class that bad paladins would take.

please keep this civil, as i want honest feedback and not to go down the last threads devolution

[Hunter548]

The only real problem I see is it makes Blackguard have less of a niche, but otherwise I actually like this.

Paladins of Freedom/Slaughter/Tyranny to go with LG paladins, please and thank you.

[TimeAdept]

I'd love to see 4 corner paladins, and Blackguard turned into more of a "Martial Warlock" that keeps the summon, keeps the divine stuff, and leans in more on the cool offensive spell-likes. Give them an Eldritch Smite sort of deal, that kind of thing.

[Rooshi49]

Evil paladins sound awesome 10/10

[naturaly]

I like the sound of this!

[Brandon Steel]

Wouldn’t mind paladins of different alignments, don’t see a reason to remove blackguard though. If anything I’d like to see blackguard get a revamp and get spells akin to Paladin, with an obvious focus on damage/negative energy instead of the set crap it has now.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Make them a poison specialist class, +1 poison dc per 2 blackguard levels and 14 levels blackguard doubles poison duration.

Blackguard still brings a lot to the table, just comes up short in some areas too.

[Hunter548]

+1 poison dc per 2 blackguard levels

This already exists; both assassins and BG get 1 poison dc per four levels.

[three wolf moon]

Wouldn’t mind paladins of different alignments, don’t see a reason to remove blackguard though. If anything I’d like to see blackguard get a revamp and get spells akin to Paladin, with an obvious focus on damage/negative energy instead of the set crap it has now.

It would have to be heavily tweaked at least, because the divine grace save bonuses stack between paladin and blackguard.

[Ebonstar]

Wouldn’t mind paladins of different alignments, don’t see a reason to remove blackguard though. If anything I’d like to see blackguard get a revamp and get spells akin to Paladin, with an obvious focus on damage/negative energy instead of the set crap it has now.

Blackguard would be an enhancement prestige class for the LE,NE,CN,CE section of the grid, not being removed.

It would then be a mark of the true vile villain and as its description the ultimate unholy chosen of the diety

in the same context, CoT is for the opposite side of the coin LG, LN, NG, CG as the "good enhancement"

This would leave TN being the exact middle. the Paramander by the article.

I found a link for the entire article here below.

https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg106.pdf

And as you can see each alignment has its own name so it adds more flavor

[JubJub]

If there are going to be neutral/evil paladins then there needs to be good warlocks and black guards. Also A BG is not an evil paladin so it doesn't need things that a paladin has. if anything I would of loved to see a paladin get a summon seems like something a god would allow their holy follower to do.

[Ebonstar]

If there are going to be neutral/evil paladins then there needs to be good warlocks and black guards. Also A BG is not an evil paladin so it doesn't need things that a paladin has. if anything I would of loved to see a paladin get a summon seems like something a god would allow their holy follower to do.

no the good blackguard is the CoT

and a warlock is a pacted class which means selling your soul for power which is never good

[JubJub]

if the server allows evil paladins or neutral then you could argue why can't I pact myself to a celestial to battle evil. After all a pact doesn't necessarily mean giving up your soul. Nowhere does it say you have to sell your soul to the pacted being. A abyssal pact could easily be cause chaos with this power at every chance you get, or fight infernal powers. Maybe I vow to feed every orphan I see.

Arelith shows Cot is he Champion of Torm can be roleplayed as a Divine Champion of any non-evil deity. A COT is pretty much a paladin. Where a BG is a evil fiend and doesn't have to be tied to a god or anything. So balance would mean a good BG where you are just a epic good person not tied to divine or gods.

[Kuma]

if the server allows evil paladins or neutral then you could argue why can't I pact myself to a celestial to battle evil. After all a pact doesn't necessarily mean giving up your soul. Nowhere does it say you have to sell your soul to the pacted being. A abyssal pact could easily be cause chaos with this power at every chance you get, or fight infernal powers. Maybe I vow to feed every orphan I see.

Arelith shows Cot is he Champion of Torm can be roleplayed as a Divine Champion of any non-evil deity. A COT is pretty much a paladin. Where a BG is a evil fiend and doesn't have to be tied to a god or anything. So balance would mean a good BG where you are just a epic good person not tied to divine or gods.

celestials specifically don't take warlocks, they aren't here to win over mortal affairs with shiny trinkets, that's not what the moral high ground is - besides, an analogue to this already exists, it's called a good-aligned cleric. basically, you can't pact yourself to goodly beings to fight evil because they won't let you.

also "balance" doesn't mean precise mirroring of classes and opportunities thereof, this isn't WoW. and an epic good person not devoted to any particular deity is called an epic fighter/WM. they don't get super powers just for being "good". in that vein, blackguards don't get powers just for being "evil". they make bargains and pledge fealties to fell powers. goodly planar beings aren't there to make bargains with you, that defeats the purpose of being good. it's a higher outward moral purpose, rather than the self-interest that motivates people to evil (i'm simplifying here).

also, i'd like to see divine champion splayed out to all alignments, not just non-evil, when we get haks that can impliment a working version of smite infidel to replace smite evil.

[monkeywithstick]

Something d20 modern did with Smite (and I quite liked) was the smite being tied to the cause for which the paladin equivalent was dedicated....
So a Paladin of environmentalism gets "Smite industrial stuff" It was a little wooly, likely more so than NWN could handle. But it would potentially be feasible wrt the deity domains I would have thought, perhaps with a fleshing out beyond the current 5.

[JubJub]

if the server allows evil paladins or neutral then you could argue why can't I pact myself to a celestial to battle evil. After all a pact doesn't necessarily mean giving up your soul. Nowhere does it say you have to sell your soul to the pacted being. A abyssal pact could easily be cause chaos with this power at every chance you get, or fight infernal powers. Maybe I vow to feed every orphan I see.

Arelith shows Cot is he Champion of Torm can be roleplayed as a Divine Champion of any non-evil deity. A COT is pretty much a paladin. Where a BG is a evil fiend and doesn't have to be tied to a god or anything. So balance would mean a good BG where you are just a epic good person not tied to divine or gods.

celestials specifically don't take warlocks, they aren't here to win over mortal affairs with shiny trinkets, that's not what the moral high ground is - besides, an analogue to this already exists, it's called a good-aligned cleric. basically, you can't pact yourself to goodly beings to fight evil because they won't let you.

also "balance" doesn't mean precise mirroring of classes and opportunities thereof, this isn't WoW. and an epic good person not devoted to any particular deity is called an epic fighter/WM. they don't get super powers just for being "good". in that vein, blackguards don't get powers just for being "evil". they make bargains and pledge fealties to fell powers. goodly planar beings aren't there to make bargains with you, that defeats the purpose of being good. it's a higher outward moral purpose, rather than the self-interest that motivates people to evil (i'm simplifying here).

also, i'd like to see divine champion splayed out to all alignments, not just non-evil, when we get haks that can impliment a working version of smite infidel to replace smite evil.

But again nowhere does it say a BG has to make a bargain with a higher power. Paladins and COT are divine, so why not have a good BG who does good without caring about gods. All I am saying is if good classes are open to evil then you need to make the bad ones open to good. There are many ways a pact can be done, could be a simple agreement for their aid you will stop chaos when you have the chance etc.

[Basementfellow]

But again nowhere does it say a BG has to make a bargain with a higher power. Paladins and COT are divine, so why not have a good BG who does good without caring about gods. All I am saying is if good classes are open to evil then you need to make the bad ones open to good. There are many ways a pact can be done, could be a simple agreement for their aid you will stop chaos when you have the chance etc.

Sounds like a Neutral character to me, rather than a Good one. Being a BG on Arelith, they'll still have been in league, to some extent, with a being of pure evil. Especially damning is their ability to conjure up fiends and undead.

The way I see it, Paladins and Divine Champions have no such specificity. Makes sense to open them up to all alignments. They're simply extremely dedicated to their deity's dogma, and are willing to fight for it. More militant Clerics, with less of a focus on preaching, more on practicing.

That said, I'd love to see Blackguards given a more distinct niche. I like their emphasis on summons, and think they'd do well as a sort of melee-based Warlock. Maybe their currently useless Smite could add Eldritch Blast damage to their next attack.

[Ebonstar]

But again nowhere does it say a BG has to make a bargain with a higher power. Paladins and COT are divine, so why not have a good BG who does good without caring about gods. All I am saying is if good classes are open to evil then you need to make the bad ones open to good. There are many ways a pact can be done, could be a simple agreement for their aid you will stop chaos when you have the chance etc.

Sounds like a Neutral character to me, rather than a Good one. Being a BG on Arelith, they'll still have been in league, to some extent, with a being of pure evil. Especially damning is their ability to conjure up fiends and undead.

The way I see it, Paladins and Divine Champions have no such specificity. Makes sense to open them up to all alignments. They're simply extremely dedicated to their deity's dogma, and are willing to fight for it. More militant Clerics, with less of a focus on preaching, more on practicing.

That said, I'd love to see Blackguards given a more distinct niche. I like their emphasis on summons, and think they'd do well as a sort of melee-based Warlock. Maybe their currently useless Smite could add Eldritch Blast damage to their next attack.

this is directly from the nwn wiki and proves what blackguard is

A blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness.

this shows why there are no good blackguards, if you want to be good you play a paladin with CoT as your prestige class

the all alignment paladins allows to play as a paladin and then be a blackguard on top of it for evil

[Maladus]

I’m 5E Paladins don’t have an alignment restriction, a change that I am in favor of. One of my characters was an Elven Oath of the Ancients Paladin, a concept that I find very intriguing but is not possible given the current rule set.

[Kuma]

But again nowhere does it say a BG has to make a bargain with a higher power. Paladins and COT are divine, so why not have a good BG who does good without caring about gods. All I am saying is if good classes are open to evil then you need to make the bad ones open to good. There are many ways a pact can be done, could be a simple agreement for their aid you will stop chaos when you have the chance etc.

but then where do they get their magic power from?

"pact" in the sense of attaining magical powers in exchange for some service or other tends to be what is known in the trade as A Big Frigging Deal, further, goodly beings don't really do the whole bribing of mortals to spread their own influence, they're better than that. they're above that. that's why they're good. they shouldn't have to bribe you to do good, you should be good for its' own sake.

also, no, you don't "need" to, again, this isn't WoW.

[JubJub]

Who knows where they get their power from but nowhere does it say a BG has to make a deal with a higher power or has to make a pact. Where COT and paladin openly state they get their power divine. Once more who knows what form a pact can take. If priest agrees to spread a gods message in exchange for divine power is that not a pact? Just because many goodly being don't make pacts or deals with mortal, doesn't mean all won't. Is it hard to think there are some goodly being around you might make a deal with a mortal for whatever reason? Should a paladin need divine powers to do good? A paladin by your logic should be doing good with out the need for additional powers since they should be doing good for its own sake. Also why can't a pact come from a god? So a good god could easily strike a deal with mortals to spread that gods agenda.

[TimeAdept]

Galaxy Brain: the Paladin Oath is just a Celestial Pact.

[Nitro]

Also why can't a pact come from a god? So a good god could easily strike a deal with mortals to spread that gods agenda.

We call those worship and clerics where I come from.

[JubJub]

See there are examples of goodly beings making pacts, all a warlock is someone who doesn't do it for divine purposes. Maybe he doesn't give a hoot about religion, he is just a goodly soul who wants to help. A BG is just a real bad person call a good BG a knight someone doing extreme good not for a god but because he just likes to.

[Cybernet21]

I said this before on another thread and will share it here,evil paladins should not be a thing imho because through lore BG's are evil paladins already,their classses are different but it makes sense,those devoted to the power of darkness getting different powers thand those devoted to the power of Light.

"Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness."

I would prefer if BG's got buffed to feel as strong as paladins ,getting different powers, than having the paladin class opened to Evil.

I also think paladins shoud remain lawful as every paladin has to follow a strict code. But i do agree that opening up Lawful Neutral to Paladins to be a good idea,Oath of Vengeance y'know

EDIT: Also sorry for reposting the definition of Blackguard didn't see that it was said before