Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

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Rook
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Rook » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:29 pm

Serious question: Why is the practice of chain-spamming healing pots a good thing and should be part of the current meta?

I am open to the possibility, that I simply don't see a the finer nuances and hidden player skill componetnt to what looks like pure cheese to a layman such as myself.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:33 pm

It's just like spamming kits but more expensive and higher hps, and still not necessarily effective
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The Damned
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:35 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:33 pm
It's just like spamming kits but more expensive and higher hps, and still not necessarily effective
"not necessarily effective"
> used effectively by virtually any player on the server with even a modicum of intelligence
> regularly turns the tables in combat
> takes exactly 0 skill
> utterly game-changing

Nobs
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Nobs » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Yep good point heal kits should have a cd aswel and perhaps not even be able to be used in combat.

I do it my self aswel *Runs up to mah pall and bandage him mid fight* its wierd...but we do it cous we can.
If we would not be able to do this 100% sure every ones play style would change and plenty more healing clerics would pop up.

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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Ork wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:22 pm
It's almost like there are counters in a wizard or spellcasters arsenal to harass heal pot spammers. And subsequent counters against those counters in the enemy's arsenal. A balanced amount of counters, you might say?
There really aren't. There's not a single spell in the game that reduces the effectiveness of heals. There's not a single spell in the game that you can use to stop someone from chugging heals if they have adequate saving throws - short of Hellball and Timestop. And both of those are practically single usage in a fight. People can -pray during the latter, as well.

You can make the argument all you want that casters have a reliable counter to it, but they really don't. Not against someone who actually had enough foresight to get saving throws on their build.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:43 pm

I'm sorry man but citing micromanaging your vamps as a reason healing pots are hard to deal with has really damaged your credibility
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The Damned
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:56 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:43 pm
I'm sorry man but citing micromanaging your vamps as a reason healing pots are hard to deal with has really damaged your credibility
Not what I said. I said that summons aren't a reliable counter to someone chugging heal potions because there's a slew of factors in the game that invalidate summons and remove them from the equation. Factors that affect how much utility summons provide include:

- Any other targets that might pull aggro from the AI.
- The requirement of player tool micromanagement if others are present to pull aggro from AI.
- Mass heals (if they're vampires).
- Any spell capable of removing them. (Ex: Dismissal, Banishment, Word of Faith).
- Their lack of capacity to out-damage the 200 health per round healing rate of someone chugging heal potions (bar very few exceptions, and exceptionally low AC targets).

Twisting my words and then arguing against a misconstrued version of what was actually said isn't a counter-argument.

You made the argument that summons singlehandedly make heal-pots a balanced part of the game because they presumably counter them. I made the argument that they do not. That's what happened.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:00 pm

The Damned wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:56 pm

Not what I said. I said that summons aren't a reliable counter to someone chugging heal potions because there's a slew of factors in the game that invalidate summons and remove them from the equation. Factors that affect how much utility summons provide include:

- The requirement of player tool micromanagement if others are present to pull aggro from AI.
dude
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Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:06 pm

The Damned wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:19 pm
This is also a stalling tactic. In larger scale situations you can't always afford to sit there beating on the guy who effectively has 2k health because of his non-stop chugging of heal potions. You get flanked. You get targeted by his allies.

It -is- a problem. It's silly, and it genuinely should be fixed.
This was what i was thinking when people swore up and down it was useless. Can just sit there and chug pots while your team peels the folks off you.

Delay the inevitable? Or soak a bunch of damage and win the fight because they wasted 1k damage trying to kill a player in turtle form.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:11 pm

And you didn't truestrike kd them because..?

And you can't do the same thing when they try to peel you because..?

This just sounds to me like the losing side had a bad kill priority
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Lunargent
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Lunargent » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:15 pm

Man if heal potions are so OP you should have no problem sinking all those requisite points and time into herbalism to make them yourself. These aren't some mythical item that can only be obtained by some elite few, anyone can make them. Just make them. Give them to your friends.

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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:23 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:11 pm
And you didn't truestrike kd them because..?
Truestrike KD isn't exactly a tactic you use as a full caster. Though that does bring up the point of how utterly absurd it is to have truestrike on a level 30 server with low gear power.

Still, that's another subject entirely.
Lunargent wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:15 pm
Man if heal potions are so OP you should have no problem sinking all those requisite points and time into herbalism to make them yourself. These aren't some mythical item that can only be obtained by some elite few, anyone can make them. Just make them. Give them to your friends.
Oh, trust me. I will, and as will many others.

And as combat on this server between competent players devolves into heal-chugging wars of attrition, people won't be able to say we didn't warn them of it's absurdity.

If you like the prospect of losing to someone strictly because they have more money to throw at a herbalist, keep defending the status quo.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:26 pm

this server might not be for you

especially if your response is going to be "I'll get you next time, gadget" to legitimate advice

I have a feeling you'll realize that healing potions aren't why you lose, and I hope that the lesson isn't too painful
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Rook
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Rook » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:29 pm

I think it deserves to be mentioned that, as a caster, you simply can't employ the same cheese, because a lot of melee builds will chew through 200 HP per round a lot easier on a flatfooted target than a caster could hope to.

I am sad to see the discussion devolve into a rather condescending tone at this point, though. Seems unnecessary, uncondusive to a healthy discussion and childish.

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flower
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by flower » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:32 pm

The Damned wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:56 pm
sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:43 pm
I'm sorry man but citing micromanaging your vamps as a reason healing pots are hard to deal with has really damaged your credibility
Not what I said. I said that summons aren't a reliable counter to someone chugging heal potions because there's a slew of factors in the game that invalidate summons and remove them from the equation. Factors that affect how much utility summons provide include:

- Any other targets that might pull aggro from the AI.
- The requirement of player tool micromanagement if others are present to pull aggro from AI.
- Mass heals (if they're vampires).
- Any spell capable of removing them. (Ex: Dismissal, Banishment, Word of Faith).
- Their lack of capacity to out-damage the 200 health per round healing rate of someone chugging heal potions (bar very few exceptions, and exceptionally low AC targets).

Twisting my words and then arguing against a misconstrued version of what was actually said isn't a counter-argument.

You made the argument that summons singlehandedly make heal-pots a balanced part of the game because they presumably counter them. I made the argument that they do not. That's what happened.
So, someone who took such large damage to begin to drink heal potions manages at the SAME TIME:
use mass heal to destroy vampires
use spells/scrolls to remove summons
is not loosing HPs while drinking heal potions

:roll:

If you fight more poeple, it is just natural they will try to protect their buddy while he heals himself. You keep to imply that because you are mage you should overcome outnumbering group and that heal potions prevent you from doing such.


You ignore the time managment. If someone uses potions he is vulnerable to you for few seconds. He looses initiative. His AC an offensive are on downside. If you brought guy to very few HPS and the moment he drinks heal potion he is at the risk getting killed. Not only summons will get better chance to hit him, also will have AoO triggered. If the guy had like 50-60 Hps left, a random critical will put him down. The summons will not outdo perhaps his heal potions. But will deal enough damage to mitigate part of it.


Of course group will manage -maybe- to distract summons or shield the guy who drinks the potions. But such is nature of group fights. Saying or implying that heal potion is click to win is hilarious.
Last edited by flower on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lunargent
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Lunargent » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:32 pm

My friend, heal pots have been around on this server for a long time. As a fun fact, they weren't CL capped until 2016, which is a little over 10 years of uncapped heal pots, 10 years of pale masters farming the Jarl and wyverns endlessly to be unkillable. Where heal pots are at now is a compromise between 'unstoppable I win button' and 'garbage that isn't worth my time/effort' that people have found acceptable for 2 years now, and maybe I'm just speaking for myself but I don't think that's about to change just because you lost in PvP to people who are friends with a heal potion factory.

Even tiny-brained animals are able to change their strategy to overcome obstacles. I'm sure you can figure something out. In the meantime, have a cup of coffee and relax. It's a beautiful new day.

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-XXX-
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by -XXX- » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm

I think that when it comes to PvP, perfect imbalance takes precedence.
Meaning, as far as healing goes, either your AC is not good enough and you've made the grave error of finding yourself in the wrong neighborhood (melee range) and no amount of healing will save you as you simply won't have enough tempo available to stabilize the situation, or in another case, two comparably tanky builds decide to duke it out and they achieve parity leading to a stalemate. Now, in order to reach resolution of such situation, you need some sort of tie breaker and IMHO attrition appears to be a much more reasonable one than variance (who rolls better).

Also, I wonder why healing potions specifically seem to be the issue here when mass heal scrolls don't have any CD either, as far as I'm aware.
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Damned
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:26 pm
this server might not be for you

especially if your response is going to be "I'll get you next time, gadget" to legitimate advice

I have a feeling you'll realize that healing potions aren't why you lose, and I hope that the lesson isn't too painful
Personally attacking someone with a different viewpoint than you is often the last resort for someone who is losing an argument. What stands is simple:

Nothing that you just stated constitutes a counter-argument, and none of it disproves the points raised on this thread about the sheer absurdity of heal potions in PvP, in their current state.
Lunargent wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:32 pm
My friend, heal pots have been around on this server for a long time. As a fun fact, they weren't CL capped until 2016, which is a little over 10 years of uncapped heal pots, 10 years of pale masters farming the Jarl and wyverns endlessly to be unkillable.
This server also had area-wide Timestop, accessible via UMD, and easily utilizable as a one-click cheese win in PvP for years.
This server also had an undocumented change to clarity that allowed it to mitigate the full effects of ALL Bigby's spells in the game, until it was discovered, and patched.
This server also had Greater Dispelling literally capped at 2, rather than 22 - until that was discovered and patched.
This server also to date has builds capable of reaching 48 unbuffed AB, 65+ with true strike (including +20 AB cap) before the d20 roll, which demands AC scores of up to 85, and discipline scores of up to 81; on a server in which most builds hover at the mid 50s range for AC, and few builds reach the mid 60s (without expertise).

"This is how it is and has been" does not lend credence to the idea that "this is balanced and this is how it should be". Many broken mechanics have existed on Arelith for large periods of time. Their permanence does not make their presence correct. And the fact that many players lack the mechanical knowledge to consider exploiting them doesn't mean they are not broken.

If they haven't been abused up to this point, it's because people lacked the foresight to recognize how immensely imbalanced they were.

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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:47 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm
I think that when it comes to PvP, perfect imbalance takes precedence.
Meaning, as far as healing goes, either your AC is not good enough and you've made the grave error of finding yourself in the wrong neighborhood (melee range) and no amount of healing will save you as you simply won't have enough tempo available to stabilize the situation, or in another case, two comparably tanky builds decide to duke it out and they achieve parity leading to a stalemate. Now, in order to reach resolution of such situation, you need some sort of tie breaker and IMHO attrition appears to be a much more reasonable one than variance (who rolls better).

Also, I wonder why healing potions specifically seem to be the issue here when mass heal scrolls don't have any CD either, as far as I'm aware.
Scrolls take a full round to cast. You can chug healing potions twice per round. If we're getting really technical, you can drink three in 6.75 seconds, roughly.

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-XXX-
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by -XXX- » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:49 pm

That's still only about half the amount of hp restored when compared to a mass heal scroll used by the vast majority of optimal builds.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:50 pm

you've done all my arguing for me man

you lost pvp because somebody had something you didn't. you want that nerfed

I've provided counter arguments and you've either glossed over them or just said "no you're wrong". I also did notice how you conveniently ignored me quoting you contradicting yourself

You're moving goalposts, arbitrarily inflating your argument with weak points (like micro'ing your mummies) and you even think truestrike is a problem despite the counters it has.

you've demonstrated that you're ignorant at best and obtuse at worst, and regardless of that, you're not wanting to actually hear the advice of people better than you. You just want to argue and win.

but by all means go ahead and think you're the victor here.
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:56 pm

sad_zav wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:50 pm
you've done all my arguing for me man

you lost pvp because somebody had something you didn't. you want that nerfed

I've provided counter arguments and you've either glossed over them or just said "no you're wrong". I also did notice how you conveniently ignored me quoting you contradicting yourself

You're moving goalposts, arbitrarily inflating your argument with weak points (like micro'ing your mummies) and you even think truestrike is a problem despite the counters it has.

you've demonstrated that you're ignorant at best and obtuse at worst, and regardless of that, you're not wanting to actually hear the advice of people better than you. You just want to argue and win.

but by all means go ahead and think you're the victor here.
Wasn't a contradiction. Stating that 'x' is a factor in the equation isn't the same as stating that 'x' is the sole argument for why something is imbalanced. To say otherwise is a logical fallacy, and someone intelligent can easily determine that much, and quickly.

I've directly addressed each and every one of your arguments, and meticulously explained why each of them are either invalid, inapplicable, incorrect, or fallacious. It was tedious, it was irritating, but it wasn't difficult. And the reason for that is because they aren't good counter-arguments, at all.

You can continue making baseless assertions that "This guy disagrees with me, and therefore he must lose all the time and be bad at PvP", but it won't make that accusation a reality.

The truth is that none of the counter-arguments you've raised have actually provided solutions to the problem, and none of them have negated the fact that it exists as one.

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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by Lunargent » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:59 pm

The Damned wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:38 pm
"This is how it is and has been" does not lend credence to the idea that "this is balanced and this is how it should be". Many broken mechanics have existed on Arelith for large periods of time. Their permanence does not make their presence correct. And the fact that many players lack the mechanical knowledge to consider exploiting them doesn't mean they are not broken.

If they haven't been abused up to this point, it's because people lacked the foresight to recognize how immensely imbalanced they were.
The point of my post is that heal pots have been the way they are for 2 years. In that time we've already seen the worst they're capable of, and it's been acceptable enough by both the players and the balance dev team (which is the best and most attentive it's been on the server to date btw) in that time. Their usefulness is tempered by widespread availability. Working as intended, not abuse. Make some heal pots and go more prepared next time, surely you will win with your newfound powers since heal pots guarantee victory in PvP.

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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by The Damned » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:04 pm

Lunargent wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:59 pm
The point of my post is that heal pots have been the way they are for 2 years. In that time we've already seen the worst they're capable of, and it's been acceptable enough by both the players and the balance dev team (which is the best and most attentive it's been on the server to date btw) in that time. Their usefulness is tempered by widespread availability. Working as intended, not abuse. Make some heal pots and go more prepared next time, surely you will win with your newfound powers since heal pots guarantee victory in PvP.
If you're outnumbered, you likely aren't going to win against people who have high saves, and are well equipped with a large supply of healing potions; particularly more than you have at your own disposal. You can burn their HP down to near death and again, but they'll keep healing back up while their teammates provide them with coverage.

It's also sorely assumptive to state that because something has been this way for 2 years, that you've seen the worst of it. That assumes that you've not only engaged in combat EXTENSIVELY, but that you've also witnessed each and every player on the server engage in combat already. And you haven't. A slew of new players have arrived, many of which are talented, competent PvPers with extensive mechanical knowledge, and many of them have not yet made it to 30 or been in fights that you've personally witnessed.

You've hardly seen it all. You've got multiple people here who know what they're talking about trying to forewarn you of a mechanic that is grossly imbalanced.

If you want to ignore that, that's your choice. But the fact of the matter is that if you aren't yet aware of how imbalanced this is, then you've yet to see someone who knows what they're doing truly abuse it.

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sad_zav
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Re: Healing Potions: Discussion on balance

Post by sad_zav » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:08 pm

The Damned wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Wasn't a contradiction. Stating that 'x' is a factor in the equation isn't the same as stating that 'x' is the sole argument for why something is imbalanced. To say otherwise is a logical fallacy, and someone intelligent can easily determine that much, and quickly.

I've directly addressed each and every one of your arguments, and meticulously explained why each of them are either invalid, inapplicable, incorrect, or fallacious. It was tedious, it was irritating, but it wasn't difficult. And the reason for that is because they aren't good counter-arguments, at all.

You can continue making baseless assertions that "This guy disagrees with me, and therefore he must lose all the time and be bad at PvP", but it won't make that accusation a reality.

The truth is that none of the counter-arguments you've raised have actually provided solutions to the problem, and none of them have negated the fact that it exists as one.
i can tell you man that being that pedantic isn't going by get you far in life. I never said it was the sole reason, either. and please don't insult my intelligence. it's very hypocritical, given the nature of this thread

you also didn't meticulously explain away my points. You said truestrike was a problem, you said mummies are hard to micro, you think cloud spells are bad, and you think everyone has high saves, and by golly breaches don't amount to anything anyway

you just like, want to be bad?
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